How to make a railway network impossible for tourists

[317666]

4) make announcements in obscure sentence structure that real people wouldn't use & make no sense if you're learning English as a 2nd language ("First class accommodation is at the rear of the train" - do they mean carriage?).

What's wrong with saying first class is at the rear of the train, when it is?

Was always really annoyed when an RPI gave a PF to tourists at Slough when visiting Windsor with a Travelcard. It was obvious they didn't know where the ticket was valid from , but as NX say PFs are for everyday mistakes!!!!

Surely though, it makes sense to check what sort of ticket you need before making a journey outside of one city? I wouldn't just jump on the EuroCity from Berlin to Prague and presume a Berlin travelcard is valid all the way without checking...

Aside from those two points though, I can understand why a tourist may find the railway network confusing. But most questions can be answered by staff, and there are a lot of them in large terminii like St Pancras or Paddington!

 

[Greenback]

A tourist will probably find a lot of things confusing when they visit the UK, as I usually find plenty of things confusing when I visit an unfamiliar country or city.

Some visitors seem to find it less difficult than others, as they recognise that our rail fares are based on yield management techniques brought in by the airlines. As such, the concept of restricted, book ahead tickets seem to be more acceptable than for some UK residents!

What seems to upset/confuse the people I come into contact with is why cheap European rail tickets can be purchased 120 days ahead, but it is often not possible to do so in the UK 90 days before the journey. This particularly applies when they are travelling on the continent and using Eurostar to travel between there and London or v.v. Having happily bought advance type fares in Germany, UK fares then appear ludicrously expensive, but usually that is because the cheapest tickets have not yet been released.

 

[cgcenet]

Some visitors seem to find it less difficult than others, as they recognise that our rail fares are based on yield management techniques brought in by the airlines.

Up to a point.. UK domestic rail ticketing is not totally based on the airline model; only some fares are based on yield management; we do have affordable walk-up fares, which are not tied to a specific service. And as I mentioned before, rail passes for the UK are valid on any train with no supplements or passholder fares (and, of course, for the domestic commuter market, we have season tickets).

Eurostar is perhaps the canonical example of real airline-style ticketing on a train service: with them, the ONLY type of cheap ticket is a yield-managed ticket, and even a flexible ticket is tied to a specific train and has to be exchanged should you wish to use a different one.

 

[moogal]

The complex ticketing is certainly an issue - I recall returning from holiday to catch a train from Gatwick, and being presented with 3 pages of ticket options for a train to London. GatEx only, Southern only, FCC only, all varieties of peak/off peak, some to Victoria and some to London Bridge and some to either.

I'd count myself as pretty au-fait with the UK rail ticketing options but I found it confusing - goodness knows how people who aren't manage (maybe that's how GatEx makes its money!)

In terms of comfort/service I don't think we're markedly worse - especially when (as another poster said) the frequency of most services over here are very good compared to many of those on the continent, particularly non-mainline services.

 

[Greenback]

Up to a point.. UK domestic rail ticketing is not totally based on the airline model; only some fares are based on yield management; we do have affordable walk-up fares, which are not tied to a specific service. And as I mentioned before, rail passes for the UK are valid on any train with no supplements or passholder fares (and, of course, for the domestic commuter market, we have season tickets).

From the perspective of visitors, it is not relevant on whether an individual fare is base don yield management or not. The fact is that anyone familiar with air services recognises the principle that Advance tickets are restricted, and that it is usually cheaper to buy tickets as early as travel plans are known and tickets are released.

US visitors in particular seem to recognise these principles at work when they are looking into day trips from London to places like York or Bath. I am guessing that this is because domestic US air fares work in a similar fashion where the cheapest tickets will be released first, and once those are sold the price will rise.

The Uk remains a rail pass friendly country. Sadly, the same can no longer be said for Italy, France and Spain.

Eurostar is perhaps the canonical example of real airline-style ticketing on a train service: with them, the ONLY type of cheap ticket is a yield-managed ticket, and even a flexible ticket is tied to a specific train and has to be exchanged should you wish to use a different one.

Unfortunately, Eurostar has always been run exactly like an airline. It is not a true walk up service, but it has been very successful in taking on the airlines. Perhaps a lot of its regular travellers have transferred from air and quite like it the way it is? (I don't, for the avoidance of doubt, but I may be in the minority!)

 

[GodAtum]

To be fare I find the USA train network more confusing. They have nothing as good as the NR website for train times and tickets.

 

[Greenback]

To be fare I find the USA train network more confusing. They have nothing as good as the NR website for train times and tickets.

US public transportation scedules tend to be very local in nature. Use of the 12 hour clock irritates me over there, but I suspect that some will prefer it!

I haven't found much difficulty using the Amtrak site, but I haven't been there for a while now so it might have changed.

 

[ainsworth74]

To be fare I find the USA train network more confusing. They have nothing as good as the NR website for train times and tickets.

The Amtrak website is pretty good for most things, especially the long distance stuff.

Use of the 12 hour clock irritates me over there

Agreed!

 

[D1009]

Unfortunately, Eurostar has always been run exactly like an airline. It is not a true walk up service, but it has been very successful in taking on the airlines. Perhaps a lot of its regular travellers have transferred from air and quite like it the way it is? (I don't, for the avoidance of doubt, but I may be in the minority!)

If the UK was in the Schengen agreement and there was no concern over security, I'm sure Eurostar would be run in exactly the same way as other international trains in Europe. Thanks to political opinion in the country there is not much chance of this happening.

 

[cgcenet]

The Uk remains a rail pass friendly country. Sadly, the same can no longer be said for Italy, France and Spain.

I think in those countries, a train ticket is usually tied to a specific train (I believe this is called "global pricing"; don't ask me why). This would explain a lot about their approach to rail passes.
I certainly remember InterRailing in France and Spain a few years ago (when it was still using the old zonal system), and always having to reserve a seat and pay a fee (and sometimes not being able to on a TGV because the quota had run out). I do sometimes wonder if I would have paid less by buying point-to-point tickets. That said, it allowed me to get one-way Eurostar passholder fares (at a time when Eurostar didn't have 'normal' cheap one-way fares and I didn't want to specify when I came back).

Unfortunately, Eurostar has always been run exactly like an airline. It is not a true walk up service, but it has been very successful in taking on the airlines. Perhaps a lot of its regular travellers have transferred from air and quite like it the way it is?

I think you are right here, and I don't much like it either. It would be nice to have a traditional passenger train service through the Channel Tunnel (i.e. had mainly walk-up fares, and stopped regularly at all stations along the route between Lille and St Pancras). It would certainly change the way people think about travelling between the UK and France. The concept has been floated (and even discussed here, I think), and there is lots of spare capacity in the CT; but I doubt it'll happen any time soon. The principal reasons are (i) the over-strict safety-related rules about what types of train are allowed to run, (ii) the very high access charges for the CT, and (iii) passenger trains that use the CT not being allowed to carry domestic passengers on the UK side. Indeed I suspect that the ONLY types of cross-channel passenger train services that could ever be viable under the current regime are Eurostar-like long-distance airline-on-rails services to/from London.

 

[Zoe]

It would be nice to have a traditional passenger train service through the Channel Tunnel (i.e. had mainly walk-up fares, and stopped regularly at all stations along the route between Lille and St Pancras).

Eurostar is an intercity service and on most intercity routes advance fares are the norm these days for many people. Walk-up tickets are available but at a premium unlike say 20 years ago when walk-up fares were very much the norm and any advance fares that did exist were quite limited. I doubt Eurostar would be any different.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the UK was in the Schengen agreement and there was no concern over security, I'm sure Eurostar would be run in exactly the same way as other international trains in Europe. Thanks to political opinion in the country there is not much chance of this happening.

While I am with you about Schengen, I think the inability to buy open tickets on Eurostar is because they are caught by the HMG requirement to have a passenger manifest for all international journeys, just like airlines and ferries.
You can't get open tickets on Holyhead-Dublin either, for the same reason, even though passports are not needed.
It's because of the problems of identifying people after accidents (eg Herald of Free Enterprise).
It also panders to the security geeks.

 

[Greenback]

If the UK was in the Schengen agreement and there was no concern over security, I'm sure Eurostar would be run in exactly the same way as other international trains in Europe. Thanks to political opinion in the country there is not much chance of this happening.

In my view security is used as a reason to prevent a proper walk up service, but this would not be a problem if there will was there to overcome it.

The problem is that Eurostar has always been seen by the government of the UK as an aircraft on rails, and probably always will.

I think in those countries, a train ticket is usually tied to a specific train (I believe this is called "global pricing"; don't ask me why). This would explain a lot about their approach to rail passes.
I certainly remember InterRailing in France and Spain a few years ago (when it was still using the old zonal system), and always having to reserve a seat and pay a fee (and sometimes not being able to on a TGV because the quota had run out). I do sometimes wonder if I would have paid less by buying point-to-point tickets. That said, it allowed me to get one-way Eurostar passholder fares (at a time when Eurostar didn't have 'normal' cheap one-way fares and I didn't want to specify when I came back).

I haven't inter-railed for many years, not since the 1980's when it was all a lot different to today. From what I can gather, most of the long distance trains in France have low quotas for railpass holders, and high fees to book a seat if you can get hold of one.

I understand that Italy and Spain are a little better than France, but that in most cases the cheapest point to point fares are less than the equivalent Advance tickets. As there seems to be limited chances to just decide what to do on the day, you may as well plan your trip in advance and not bother with a pass at all!

Despite no Eastern European travel, I am quite glad I was able to inter-rail when I did!

I think you are right here, and I don't much like it either. It would be nice to have a traditional passenger train service through the Channel Tunnel (i.e. had mainly walk-up fares, and stopped regularly at all stations along the route between Lille and St Pancras). It would certainly change the way people think about travelling between the UK and France. The concept has been floated (and even discussed here, I think), and there is lots of spare capacity in the CT; but I doubt it'll happen any time soon. The principal reasons are (i) the over-strict safety-related rules about what types of train are allowed to run, (ii) the very high access charges for the CT, and (iii) passenger trains that use the CT not being allowed to carry domestic passengers on the UK side. Indeed I suspect that the ONLY types of cross-channel passenger train services that could ever be viable under the current regime are Eurostar-like long-distance airline-on-rails services to/from London.

So much needs to change in the UK before we can expect a proper international rail service like those between France and Switzerland, for example. I hope that it will happen one day, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Zoe]

You can't get open tickets on Holyhead-Dublin either, for the same reason, even though passports are not needed.

Can you get an open ticket for Glasgow to Belfast? If so then considering you can travel from Belfast to Dublin without going through any border controls you could enter or leave the UK without appearing on a passenger manifest.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While I am with you about Schengen, I think the inability to buy open tickets on Eurostar is because they are caught by the HMG requirement to have a passenger manifest for all international journeys, just like airlines and ferries.

Does the Enterprise have a passenger manifest?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my view security is used as a reason to prevent a proper walk up service, but this would not be a problem if there will was there to overcome it.

Even if you go by car, you can't just turn up at Folkestone and get on Le Shuttle without booking in advance can you?

 

[cgcenet]

Eurostar is an intercity service and on most intercity routes advance fares are the norm these days for many people.

No, advance fares are still not the "norm" even on inter-city rail routes in this country. They are quite popular, but there are also many reasonably affordable walk-up fares, especially if you have a Railcard. [It should be noted that Off-peak walk-up fares are often cheaper than the more expensive Advance fares, so there is not so much point in buying the latter unless you need to travel on a Peak-time train.] Eurostar is unlike all domestic UK long-distance passenger train services in that ALL its discounted fares (so all apart from fully flexible (~= "Anytime" on National Rail)) are yield-managed advance-purchase fares.

Walk-up tickets are available but at a premium unlike say 20 years ago when walk-up fares were very much the norm and any advance fares that did exist were quite limited. I doubt Eurostar would be any different.

Eurostar started about 20 years ago and from the beginning used a pure airline-style yield-management fare structure.

 

[Greenback]

Even if you go by car, you can't just turn up at Folkestone and get on Le Shuttle without booking in advance can you?

I really have no idea, but I would have thought that you would be accommodated provided that there is space available.

 

[Zoe]

No, advance fares are still not the "norm" even on inter-city rail routes in this country.

They are for many people on some routes. When I say they are the norm, I do not mean they are what everyone would use as for business travel the company may well be prepared to pay for the flexibility. I recent years the walk-up travel on many intercity routes has increased in recent years but at the same time a wide range of advance fares have been introduced. There was once a time when the norm for many people on an intercity route to London would have been a Super Saver. These days it would be an advance fare unless they are prepared to pay the premium for flexibility.

 

[LE Greys]

They are for many people on some routes. When I say they are the norm, I do not mean they are what everyone would use as for business travel the company may well be prepared to pay for the flexibility. I recent years the walk-up travel on many intercity routes has increased in recent years but at the same time a wide range of advance fares have been introduced. There was once a time when the norm for many people on an intercity route to London would have been a Super Saver. These days it would be an advance fare unless they are prepared to pay the premium for flexibility.

I'd agree with you there. On purely anecdotal evidence, that's been the case for at least the last decade. Many a time I've been in queues for advanced bookings for 5-10 minutes with someone behind a window at the end calling out 'Anyone travelling today?' and very few takers. Not something I approve of, but I still tend to use advance fares anyway.

 

[sheff1]

You can't get open tickets on Holyhead-Dublin either ...

When did that change ? I used an open ticket last year.

Even if you go by car, you can't just turn up at Folkestone and get on Le Shuttle without booking in advance can you?

Yes you can - assuming there is room of course.

 

[Metrailway]

Eurostar is an intercity service and on most intercity routes advance fares are the norm these days for many people. Walk-up tickets are available but at a premium unlike say 20 years ago when walk-up fares were very much the norm and any advance fares that did exist were quite limited. I doubt Eurostar would be any different.

Passenger Focus, using ATOC data, stated, that if one ignores season tickets, 25% of long distance journeys are made on Advance purchase tickets i.e 75% of long distance journeys are made on traditional 'walk-up' tickets. So advance tickets are hardly 'the norm' for your average InterCity passenger.

Proportion of passengers using full price, ‘walk up’ discounted and Advance single tickets

... However, the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) has provided data showing that in the long distance sector just over half of all non-season ticket standard class journeys are made using ‘walk up’ discounted tickets (e.g. Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak), with the remainder split between full price (e.g. Anytime) and Advance purchase tickets – each accounting for 20% to 25% of journeys.

 

[LE Greys]

Passenger Focus, using ATOC data, stated, that if one ignores season tickets, 25% of long distance journeys are made on Advance purchase tickets i.e 75% of long distance journeys are made on traditional 'walk-up' tickets. So advance tickets are hardly 'the norm' for your average InterCity passenger.

That's very interesting. Did it say whether these on-the-day tickets were purchased in advance or not? That might be one way to square this circle.

 

[Trog]

On a more basic level, have you ever watched an American or German tourist trying to find the door handle so they can get off Mk3 stock?

For some reason the idea of dropping the window, and using the handle on the outside of the door never occurs to them.

 

[tsr]

For some reason the idea of dropping the window, and using the handle on the outside of the door never occurs to them.

Well, it's not exactly how you leave your house, is it? I doubt many people currently consider it an instantly recognisable way of opening any modern door, to be frank.

(Waits for a defiant chorus of rail enthusiasts detailing their Mk3-based houses...)

 

[callum9999]

On a more basic level, have you ever watched an American or German tourist trying to find the door handle so they can get off Mk3 stock?

For some reason the idea of dropping the window, and using the handle on the outside of the door never occurs to them.

While I'd (hopefully) figure that out when I see there is no way to open it from the inside, it would perplex me for a bit as well. The last time I was on a train that had a door like that I must have been about 8 years old!

 

[Zoe]

Passenger Focus, using ATOC data, stated, that if one ignores season tickets, 25% of long distance journeys are made on Advance purchase tickets i.e 75% of long distance journeys are made on traditional 'walk-up' tickets. So advance tickets are hardly 'the norm' for your average InterCity passenger.

They are not specific as to which long distance journeys this data applies to (the limited amount of route specific data included in the document only shows the percentages paid as compared to the anytime single without reference to the type of ticket. There's also limited information on the amount of people using the cheapest available advance fare for some route but these rock bottom fares can have quite limited in availability). There are still some routes where there are absolutely no advance fares available and other where availability is quite limited. There is also a fair amount of business travel where a company will pay for a walk-up ticket and times where travel has to be made a short notice regardless of how much it costs as flexibility is required. For many people on some intercity routes though advance fares are the norm and walk-up tickets would only be used if they were the only practical option for the journey in question, for example an essential journey at short notice.

 

[306024]

On a more basic level, have you ever watched an American or German tourist trying to find the door handle so they can get off Mk3 stock?

For some reason the idea of dropping the window, and using the handle on the outside of the door never occurs to them.

Or any other nationality, including British. A fairly common occurrence at Manningtree for those changing from the Norwich trains to the Harwich branch.

Having sampled the Chiltern sliding door MkIII coaches, a similar fit can't come quickly enough to the Norwich sets, assuming they soldier on through the next franchise. Providing the doors are reliable, the reduction in station dwell time would greatly help performance on the GEML.

Having watched an admittedly lightly loaded 11 car pendo stop at Carlisle for just 45 seconds, these slam doors should be phased out everywhere.

 

[yorksrob]

Going around putting sliding doors on everything ? A complete waste of money in my opinion.

A sticker informing people to open from the outside would be a darn sight less expensive.

 

[Zoe]

Going around putting sliding doors on everything ? A complete waste of money in my opinion.

A sticker informing people to open from the outside would be a darn sight less expensive.

Won't there have to be some way of opening the door from the inside if the trains are to remain in service from 1 January 2020?

 

[jon0844]

I hope so. I don't like opening HST doors and fear that if someone like my mum was on one, she'd not be able to without help.

These doors will not be missed and if anyone has any sentimental feelings for them, see if you can buy one from the ROSCO when they're replaced and use one for your own front door.

 

[306024]

Going around putting sliding doors on everything ? A complete waste of money in my opinion.

Try despatching a load 10 InterCity set at Stratford, ensuring every door is securly closed, while 100s of passengers stream past blocking your view. Then try again in the dark.

Identifying a door on the catch is not as easy as it sounds, and the repercusions for everyone if a train is despatched with a door on the catch are quite serious.

It does make me wonder how we coped when nearly everything was slam doors though.