London Overground 'Circle Line'

[londonbridge]

It's extremely handy and provides direct links for me for a number of journeys which previously involved several changes. There may not always be a saving in journey time but that's outweighed by the convienience of a direct link and cheaper fares.

For instance,when going to a gig at Shepherds Bush (or the match when my team play at QPR) I can now go East Croydon-Clapham Junction-Shepherds Bush,whereas before I'd be going Croydon-Vic-District to Hammersmith then H&C. Alternatively I have a direct link from West Croydon to Highbury and Islington if going to Union Chapel or Islington Assembley Hall.

 

[moogal]

As others have pointed out, it's not designed for people to travel the whole circle - it's a short hop metro service. You'd not get away with an interior layout with more seats - I don't know about the west side of the circle, but the NLL between Highbury and Stratford is absolutely wedged in the peaks, similarly the ELL south of Whitechapel, and very busy even off-peak.

I've never found the acceleration poor either - it's more noticeable on the NLL than the ELL in my experience though. Yes, the seats aren't very comfortable, but for a 15-20 minute journey they do the job. Add the extra carriages and they'll be absolutely perfect.

 

[Minstral25]

As someone who used to commute from Dalston and now West Brompton down to the Southern network, these trains are inadequate, uncomfortable and too short.

Travelling from Dalston Junction to Norwood Junction I used to often get a seat only to find my feet trodden on by the tightly squeezed cattle in the middle. However standing for the 40 minute journey in these trucks wasn't a real option. Occaisionally going on the NLL to Highbury you'd have to miss trains because they were too full (they now have 4 coach trains so maybe that is better now - I suspect not)

Now travelling in the WLL it is often impossible to get on trains at West Brompton or Imperial Wharf from shoulder peak right through the peak into the evening, despite the additional Southern trains (I now go the long way round to Victoria) and in the morning the 8:00 ex-Clapham normally leaves a coach load behind - fortunately the next one is 8:10 and is rammed

The Upgrade has been a brilliant success that is now a failure because TFL didn't have the imagination to realise just how much it would be used. We know 5 coach trains are coming but they will be overcrowded in days after they arrive - it already needs a full rebuild to deal with the loads being experienced - new signalling to allow more trains - longer more customer friendly trains as well (many people use the lines long distance it's not solely a commuter line - same problem with the new District and Metropolitan stock)

I know up north you feel hard done by but I've also commuted around Birmingham and until you see the volumes of people on the trains in London you will find it difficult to comprehend the reason why the massive investments in Crossrail etc have to occur. I'm betting Crossrail will be rammed within 5 years - Driving or buses are not a reasonable option in London

 

[Clip]

Are these freights going to destinations within central London?
If not.... we have to ask the question.... why are they even approaching Central London, let alone getting in as close as the routes operated by the Overground?

Historically though wasnt East London a veritable hive of activity with many freight yards to supplement the rest of London and its needs for the goods that were now being delivered a bit further down the Thames since the London docks had all but closed shop. Then onwards around a then quieter stretch of railway line to access the rest of the country.

That was my understanding of why they go that way.

 

[notadriver]

Couple of interesting points. The signalling already allows 16 tph on the core route. Also trains to Norwood Junction now start at Dalston Junction so it should be possible to get a seat at the Dalston terminus. Ill note also these trains only seem overcrowded in the peaks although a 5th car should ease matters.

 

[mister-sparky]

Loads of posters have said that the trains need to be longer and more frequent. 5 cars is the longest some of them can ever be because the stations are in cuttings/on embankments which prohibit platform extensions. It would cost a bomb to extend them and it just isn't going to happen. It's also unlikely to ever be more than 4/6 tph unless an alternative route is found for the freight traffic. That still has to use the lines too and it uses up valuable paths.

 

[317666]

I have to agree with the OP, I'm not a fan of London Overground at all!

 

[W-on-Sea]

OK: one thing on the Overground that really is very badly designed and inadequate: Shepherds Bush station. Cheap, shoddy, almost shelter-free, platforms too narrow, nasty - and really out of keeping with the refurbishments carried out to even some of the more modest (but often once grander) stations on the NLL, etc.

 

[Clip]

I agree with you on that score, imps wharf is the samen however, you can ony build something with the land that you have available and if you can't buy up anythiong where you can have a decent overhang to provide stuff like shelters then you can only do what you can do.

 

[tractakid]

The frequency to Battersea Park, frankly, is rubbish.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What other major European city has a route that best mirrors the London Overground orbital rail route and what type of rolling stock do they employ?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Berlin, 8-12 coach trains, 10 minute frequency, 1 hour to circumnavigate the city.

I would say that a 15 minute frequency is not a metro service. Where is the 16tph section?

 

[NSE]

16tph is the ELL. Also the NLL is at 6tph, one every ten minutes from Stratford to Willesden.
One every 15 on the Richmond stretch, but only for the two Acton stations cause then the District line shares tracks and improves frequencies, and with the Southern train the WLL is 5 trains an hour. Its only the Goblin line that is one every 15 minutes, and as that used to be half hourly and the long term plan is to extend it and make it more frequent I believe, its not bad going really.
Forgot about the Watford DC, but most of that is shared with the Bakerloo so again, its not too bad.

Also while 6 maybe 8 cars would help in the peaks, going up to 12 cars would be overkill.

 

[The Ham]

Basicly, once again, the UK has trains which following a bit of investment has seen passenger numbers shoot up and now the passengers are saying that the service is full and something needs to be done.

As I see it unless we spend a fortune in London trying to have enough capacity (and there will be many on this thread who will cry out that London is getting the investment again) the passengers are having to keep putting up with busy trains (which should be seen as the norm in London).

It may well be that with the train lengthening proposed for the Overground and once Thameslink, Crossrail and the diverting of some of the freight trains (which may allow a more frequent service) are done that things become a bit better for a while. If it does not then look forward to more big projects in London to provide more capacity.

 

[313103]

Have to be careful what i say as my last post was deleted along with a warning.

If you had a train every two minutes and 10 coaches long someone would whinge about there being not enough space and not enough trains. However we are where we are, some people ought to think how it use to be. When i moved to Willesden it was a standard 20 minute headway Richmond to North Woolwich No service on winter Sundays between Camden Road and Richmond and the service frequency on Sundays was one train every 30 minutes. No service to Clapham Junction existed at the time. Gospel Oak to Barking was two trains an hour until 20.00 then hourly with the last train being at 21.55.

Now what do you have Air condition trains, off peak service of 6 trains per hour rising to 12 during the peaks, longer trains with even longer additions to come. Saturday and Sunday service levels at the same as Mon to Fri off peak times this on the NLL & WLL. On the Gospel Oak - Barking services levels have never been better in the history of the line, every 15 minutes until 22.05 then half hourly until 23.35. These trains are planned to have a third car added as well. Cant really comment on LOs other services as these are DOO and i have never had the need to use them.

 

[Squaddie]

1) It is slow due to having stops every few minutes!

I don't think the slowness of the Overground is solely - or even mainly - due to the number of stops it makes. After all, Tokyo's Yamanote line, which is an overground circle line around the central part of the city, makes frequent stops and is incredibly fast. My experiences of the Overground suggest that it is due to slow acceleration, the length of time taken to release the doors on arrival at a station and the even greater length of time it takes to close the doors again once all passengers have boarded. There's probably not a great deal that can be done about the poor acceleration, but if the issue with the doors were dealt with the journey times could probably be reduced quite significantly.

 

[notadriver]

In my opinion part of this slowness may be because the timetable is so relaxed and drivers are told not to rush. I don't think the train itself is that slow to accelerate; it seems to be faster to get going than other similar trains around it.

 

[LE Greys]

I don't think the slowness of the Overground is solely - or even mainly - due to the number of stops it makes. After all, Tokyo's Yamanote line, which is an overground circle line around the central part of the city, makes frequent stops and is incredibly fast. My experiences of the Overground suggest that it is due to slow acceleration, the length of time taken to release the doors on arrival at a station and the even greater length of time it takes to close the doors again once all passengers have boarded. There's probably not a great deal that can be done about the poor acceleration, but if the issue with the doors were dealt with the journey times could probably be reduced quite significantly.

To which you can probably add the route geometry. There are plenty of tight curves, old viaducts, junctions and speed restrictions. Clapham and Willesden Junctions, the Gospel Oak-Camden Road section, the new bit at Shoreditch, the New Cross section and the entire SLL look like they are affected. Maybe it's simply impossible to get much more speed out of the route than there is.

 

[southerner2174]

Bear in mind that the core route of the ELL has trains running every 3-5 minutes, if one is delayed coming off the main line or off the south london line by even a minute this will have an impact on the following service especially between silwood junction and wapping by it crawling behind it on yellow and red signals.

The speed you will ever get up to running on green signals in this area is around 25-28 mph before braking, so you can reduce that to 10-15 mph if on yellow and less on red signals then no wonder both acceleration and overall speed seems low.

Also once out of the core section of the ELL, it is often that you are following another service close behind either Southern or Overground so since again on cautionary signals you are unlikely to hit optimum speed between stations unless running on green signals, the same applies for the SLL as you are slotted in between Southeastern and Freight trains.

 

[313103]

Anyone thought that the slowness is down to PPM?

The timetable is so padded at times you often have enough time to have the 3 Ss at certain stations.

IMHO Stratford LO station is to small, it would have been better to of had at least 3 platforms, that is why it is always timed as a 7 minute headway between Hackney Wick and Stratford. You have to wait for one to leave before you can go into the station.

Westbound services between Willesden Junction and Richmond are often allowed so much generous time that at Acton Central, South Acton and Gunnersbury you are waiting time and then you follow a district line service from Gunnersbury all the way to Richmond.

Nearly every train in the eastbound direction has waiting times of between 2 and 6 minutes at Acton Central.

However i am just a Guard and have to work within the guidlines so to quote a popular saying 'us is not to know the reason why, but us is to do and die'.

 

[Skoodle]

Presumably due to slow line speeds in places and having to slot in between other services and freight. I know what you mean though - the slowest-feeling part I've experienced is Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Road which usually takes me 7 minutes, sometimes 10 minutes for what is a little over a mile!

That section has a maximum linespeed of 25mph, and 10mph in and out of Clapham Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In regards to slowness closing the doors, from pushing the close button to getting interlock is around ten seconds, that's without passengers blocking the doors or holding them to get on.

 

[Oswyntail]

I would not have said it was unduly slow - and it is a darned sight faster than any alternative. Speed is not everything.

 

[Nym]

That section has a maximum linespeed of 25mph, and 10mph in and out of Clapham Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In regards to slowness closing the doors, from pushing the close button to getting interlock is around ten seconds, that's without passengers blocking the doors or holding them to get on.

Considering the Victoria Line take between 7 and 12 seconds to do buttons to wheels rolling that's not bad going at all.

 

[telstarbox]

Re the freight on the NLL - do any electric freight trains run all the way from the WCML to Felixstowe this way?

 

[maniacmartin]

In regards to slowness closing the doors, from pushing the close button to getting interlock is around ten seconds, that's without passengers blocking the doors or holding them to get on.

Its not the closing that's slow, but the opening

 

[Nym]

Its not the closing that's slow, but the opening

There are two very easy ways to improve that...

1) Change the control triggers from edge detection to level detection. Currently the doors open when you press the button (Most Bombardier Stock), not when the button is pressed (like on Siemens Stock and BREL Stock).

2) Provide two options to the driver at stations, one being the current "Release Doors" and the other being "Release and Open Doors" this could either be in the form of a big pair of red buttons, or alternatively a 'mode change' button within the TCMS as is the case of the S8 and S7 stock.

 

[notadriver]

There are two very easy ways to improve that...

1) Change the control triggers from edge detection to level detection. Currently the doors open when you press the button (Most Bombardier Stock), not when the button is pressed (like on Siemens Stock and BREL Stock).

2) Provide two options to the driver at stations, one being the current "Release Doors" and the other being "Release and Open Doors" this could either be in the form of a big pair of red buttons, or alternatively a 'mode change' button within the TCMS as is the case of the S8 and S7 stock.

It's the driving policy on NR unfortunately. They want a pause so the driver checks the train is properly positioned before putting up a door release. The tube with its correct side door enable beacons allows for faster door openings I think.

 

[tsr]

There are two very easy ways to improve that...

1) Change the control triggers from edge detection to level detection. Currently the doors open when you press the button (Most Bombardier Stock), not when the button is pressed (like on Siemens Stock and BREL Stock).

2) Provide two options to the driver at stations, one being the current "Release Doors" and the other being "Release and Open Doors" this could either be in the form of a big pair of red buttons, or alternatively a 'mode change' button within the TCMS as is the case of the S8 and S7 stock.

I don't know how easy No.1 would be, exactly, but I definitely feel No.2 might improve the situation. The mode changer you describe, once a suitable interface is chosen, sounds pretty logical for the 378s. I have seen a few passengers get frustrated at the release time, particularly at interchange stations where they see people in the station running and assume that a "connecting" (probably technically not) train is pulling up, for example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's the driving policy on NR unfortunately. They want a pause so the driver checks the train is properly positioned before putting up a door release. The tube with its correct side door enable beacons allows for faster door openings I think.

Simple solution: make it like the Tube!

 

[Nym]

It's the driving policy on NR unfortunately. They want a pause so the driver checks the train is properly positioned before putting up a door release. The tube with its correct side door enable beacons allows for faster door openings I think.

Ummmm. Neither of my points related to driving policy. They're both hardware changes.

And some LUL lines until recently didnt have CSDE...

And it depends on the wiring loom as to how easy either of these changes are, I dont have detailed specs on the 378s so cant say how easy it would be, but both are do-able.

 

[notadriver]

Ummmm. Neither of my points related to driving policy. They're both hardware changes.

And some LUL lines until recently didnt have CSDE...

And it depends on the wiring loom as to how easy either of these changes are, I dont have detailed specs on the 378s so cant say how easy it would be, but both are do-able.

Nym, I was just trying to helpful. A driver can make a difference in how long it takes to release the doors and in how long it takes to get the train moving once the doors are closed. A button exists that opens all the doors (rather than releases them) like on the tube but its not to be used except in emergencies.