London Overground 'Circle Line'

[swt_passenger]

To make circular services possible they'd firstly need to make all their stock dual voltage, (although that's straightforward, just a certain cost) and they'd also have to provide for parallel moves at Highbury and Islington - which as discussed many times is not straightforward at all.

A problem is the PR people love to spin the benefits using terms such as 'orbital' or 'outer circle' - but the railway operations people don't actually find circular services reliable, as posters above have pointed out they've just done the opposite change to 'fix' the LU Circle Line...

 

[Searle]

Battersea Park is not part of the official tfL "London Overground" network, but still has 4tph AFAIK.

Battersea Park gets one train per day to Highbury and Islington and back, I detect some sarcasm in the original post :P

 

[maniacmartin]

Battersea Park gets one train per day to Highbury and Islington and back, I detect some sarcasm in the original post :P

Also, whenever there's a problem with the line near Clapham Junction (such as broken down freight trains), trains from Surrey Quays get diverted to Battersea Park instead.

 

[455driver]

So the point of currently extending platforms from 8 to 12 coaches on the Waterloo to Reading line is ?

They are extending the platforms to 12 coach lengths are they?

And there was me thinking it was 10!

Yes I do have my pedantic head on!

 

[swt_passenger]

They are extending the platforms to 12 coach lengths are they?

And there was me thinking it was 10!

Yes I do have my pedantic head on!

To be fair there seems to have been quite a few random news and rail mag articles that have been misled by the new '12 car Southern platforms' at Reading. They probably haven't worked out that they were done in one hit for sound economic reasons, because starting again there in future after all the work to extend the bridge and add the third track and new junctions would make it vastly more expensive.

However the decision to go ahead with 10 car at remaining stations between Virginia Water and Reading has only just been made, the situation only a year or so back was that the actual Reading route was staying as 8 car, and the Windsor side 10 car project basically only included routes to Weybridge and Windsor...

All changed now, but still only 10 car as you say.

 

[455driver]

The stations to Reading are being extended but the service will only normally be operated by 8 coach 450s.

 

[swt_passenger]

The stations to Reading are being extended but the service will only normally be operated by 8 coach 450s.

Yes - it's a platform capability only until something official is published about the next SWT new rolling stock order which was being discussed here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78628

I think there's every likelihood there'll be some movement towards a 10 car Reading service, because I don't think NR will start the job without some sort of DfT guarantee that the platforms are needed. (I know there have been cases of platforms lengthened without trains before, notably on the SE division, but I think things have changed a bit since then.)

 

[455driver]

Obviously the 10 coach 458s will be able to go to Reading so maybe its to do with the possibility of them running to Reading during the peak periods.

Cant see NR doing all the extending without there being a requirement for it.

 

[tractakid]

Battersea Park is not part of the official tfL "London Overground" network, but still has 4tph AFAIK.

What is 'the official London Overground network'?

 

[si404]

A problem is the PR people love to spin the benefits using terms such as 'orbital' or 'outer circle' - but the railway operations people don't actually find circular services reliable, as posters above have pointed out they've just done the opposite change to 'fix' the LU Circle Line...

They are also pretty useless, but sounds like an important thing. Only the few journeys which require a change suffer, and they aren't many. Circle line changed to T-cup is a similarly sensible move, changing the line into radial-tangential, rather than a loop.

Add to that the 2 radians problem (that going via zone 1 is always going to be quicker for journeys that curve more than ~ 100 degrees, as longer via the orbital). eg putting a borderline journey like West Hampstead to Stratford gives me 34 minutes with a change at Oxford Circus, and 35 minutes for the NLL and JLE routes).

Basically what a full circle will do is stop those travelling from south London to/from Shepherds Bush from switching trains at Clapham Junction (you'd either reverse or not serve this major station), and likewise those from Hoxton to Camden - but properly 4-tracking Highbury - Camden and extending the NLL would do similar functions, especially if you have the ELL take over the DC lines via Primrose Hill. Denmark Hill/Peckham to Shepherds Bush is a bit harder.

 

[Manchester77]

What is 'the official London Overground network'?

This http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/london-overground-network-map.pdf

 

[andykn]

I doubt it, and tbh I don't see why it should

Because the connection time at Clapham adds quite a bit of time to the journey.

I was hoping they were going to bed in the new southern end of the service then at least connect up that bit.

 

[telstarbox]

For passengers who do need to change trains the interchanges aren't too bad. At Clapham Junction the two Overground platforms are adjacent, and at Highbury & Islington there are two island pairs of Overground platforms joined by a short footbridge.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Circle line changed to T-cup is a similarly sensible move, changing the line into radial-tangential, rather than a loop.

.

There is also the health benefit for drivers. The average driver would walk the length of their train around 4 to 6 times on an average half of a shift where a Circle Line driver would be stuck in the cab for three Circles. (In olden days it would be three Inner Rails first half then Three Outer rails second half to unwind).

 

[telstarbox]

The Circle line also required units to change direction daily (near Aldgate?) to avoid uneven wear on the wheels.

 

[tractakid]

This http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/london-overground-network-map.pdf

Is it an official term though? Or is it just an invented term to describe the set of stations that receive a regular service? Other than the map (which doesn't include Battersea Park for obvious reasons) is there any source that specifically omits Battersea Park, or defines the term 'official network'?

 

[cle]

For passengers who do need to change trains the interchanges aren't too bad. At Clapham Junction the two Overground platforms are adjacent, and at Highbury & Islington there are two island pairs of Overground platforms joined by a short footbridge.

The connections at Clapham are terrible albeit convenient. Certainly on a Saturday, to change between the lines (which many do) you're waiting 9-12 minutes.

Hopefully there will also be some improvements between Wandsworth Road and Clapham Junction on the line speeds (even from 20 to 30!) to quicken up the journey. That last bit is painfully slow.

Overall it's fantastic though. Higher frequencies along this stretch would be great (I understand there are 4tph spare capacity in the 20tph max, with 2tph to go to Crystal Palace) - but hard to do.

Shame they didn't bite the bullet and go for platform 1 and the works associated. Then there could be a bay for the NLL, the current p2 shared and the extended one, for the ELL. Brixton needs serving too - but it's all $$$.

 

[Manchester77]

Is it an official term though? Or is it just an invented term to describe the set of stations that receive a regular service? Other than the map (which doesn't include Battersea Park for obvious reasons) is there any source that specifically omits Battersea Park, or defines the term 'official network'?

That is the official TfL published map found on transport for London and London over grounds website and can be fond onboard trains and at London overground stations

 

[si404]

Not be confused with this, but "London Overground" is a franchise name (like "Integrated Kent"), a franchise brand and a line name on in-network announcements and line maps.

It's very much official.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed I believe it's a network rail rule that trains release their doors and not open their doors in normal operations.

Merseyrail's units open all doors on the appropriate side at every stop. Prior to the refurb, I know the panels for passenger door controls were plated over- I can't remember if they were left in place after the refurb though. The SouthEastern and Silverlink 508 units had them re-installed.

 

[class303]

Merseyrail's units open all doors on the appropriate side at every stop. Prior to the refurb, I know the panels for passenger door controls were plated over- I can't remember if they were left in place after the refurb though. The SouthEastern and Silverlink 508 units had them re-installed.

pretty sure the class 314s in glasgow area open automatically. indeed there is not even a door open/close button.

 

[bicbasher]

Is it an official term though? Or is it just an invented term to describe the set of stations that receive a regular service? Other than the map (which doesn't include Battersea Park for obvious reasons) is there any source that specifically omits Battersea Park, or defines the term 'official network'?

If Battersea Park was also part of the Overground network, it'd also have TfL Oyster fares. It doesn't. For example, travel from Denmark Hill on the one a day service and it's a NR fare as the normal journey would require changing at Clapham Junction for a Southern service.

 

[tractakid]

If Battersea Park was also part of the Overground network, it'd also have TfL Oyster fares. It doesn't. For example, travel from Denmark Hill on the one a day service and it's a NR fare as the normal journey would require changing at Clapham Junction for a Southern service.

Interesting that this connection does appear on the relevant map, I'm slightly surprised. No direct line for Wandsworth-Olympia though! Is the TFL Oyster fare valid?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/national-rail-map.pdf

 

[andykn]

Interesting that this connection does appear on the relevant map, I'm slightly surprised. No direct line for Wandsworth-Olympia though! Is the TFL Oyster fare valid?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/national-rail-map.pdf

Oyster is fine for Wandsworth Road to Olympia because it's all on green lines.