London Overground 'Circle Line'

[southerner2174]

Well I've been timing my dwell times and pretty much your looking at 30 seconds at most stations from stopping, releasing doors, observing the boarding and alighting process to closing the doors and safely departing. If 30 seconds is too long for the complainers maybe you should put on the white gloves and do what the Japanese do and push the slow coaches on faster

 

[tsr]

A button exists that opens all the doors (rather than releases them) like on the tube but its not to be used except in emergencies.

Looking at it from passengers' points of view, I think this is a bit silly - surely it would make sense for the driver to have the choice for it to be used outside of emergencies during stops at busier stations or termini?

 

[southerner2174]

But from a safety point of view, at least if the doors do get released the wrong side, they will only open if a passenger presses the button in the carriage, if the driver actually opens all the doors and someone falls out of a packed train, imagine the headlines, especially if the fast line is adjacent

 

[notadriver]

Indeed I believe it's a network rail rule that trains release their doors and not open their doors in normal operations.

 

[Andrewlong]

I have travelled the complete loop and did the new stretch to east of Clapham Junction. The new stretch is very slow especially the first 15 minutes out of Clapham. I understand the reasons for the seating layout - great for packed trains but those brown seats are awful straight out of 1970s!

As to overcrowding - Try catching a SWT train from Clapham Junction towards Richmond during the rush hour. Rammed and no indication when 8 coach trains will expanded to 12 coaches. Those on the LO have more space to stand and are are probably only travelling for relatively short distances anyway!

 

[455driver]

As to overcrowding - Try catching a SWT train from Clapham Junction towards Richmond during the rush hour. Rammed and no indication when 8 coach trains will expanded to 12 coaches.

They wont be!

 

[maniacmartin]

And it depends on the wiring loom as to how easy either of these changes are, I dont have detailed specs on the 378s so cant say how easy it would be, but both are do-able.

The first suggestion sounds like a great idea. Being able to just hold the button down and it open at the first available opportunity is easiest for a passenger.

However the most noticeable delay to me is between the train stopping and the ring of LEDs/beeping at the door open buttons to indicate it is ready to respond to presses. Whether this is slower than other National Rail services I don't know, but given the frequency of stops, as a proportion of the total journey time, on the Overground, more time is spend waiting for doors etc. (With the tube the doors can be half open before you've even come to a standstill!)

 

[jon0844]

I'm used to holding the door open button and the doors automatically opening the second they're unlocked.

On a 378 you must wait (hold the button and they won't open even when active - you must release and press again), which probably gives the impression that it takes longer. Not only that but I believe there's a delay with a series of warning beeps before they actually begin to open. Is it a necessary delay to open the doors or just a new safety thing?

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe there's a delay with a series of warning beeps before they actually begin to open

Correct. From my experience, after the flashing lights and beeps, you must wait a further 1-2 seconds before pressing the button, or your press won't open the door.

 

[Latecomer]

There's a balance to be had. Drivers are taught to introduce a slight pause to ensure the train is correctly positioned and to minimise risk of wrong side door release. These can still occur however - imagine if instead of the doors releasing the doors were actually opened on a packed service with a train arriving on the adjacent line? For this reason it will never be adopted without associated technogy to prevent wrong side opening.

Some sections are rather slow, although I understand that discussions are being had with network rail to reduce the length of the 10mph limit into Clapham Junction. 378 units in fact have greater acceleration capability than some of its cousins as it was designed to cope with some of the steep gradients on the ELL. There may be a perception of slowness, but getting 200 tons moving from stand at Canada Water on an uphill gradient takes a moment or two. At other times drivers are driving in a more relaxed style to avoid the sprint between stations only to dwell for 2-3 mins at a station to keep to timetable (that would feel more frustrating to passengers than keeping on the move). The timetaing is such to take account of peak times when dwell times are forcibly increased by shear passenger numbers (along with holding doors etc). At other times drivers are simply held up by congestion - we will not bang it in to notch 4 on a single yellow (restrictive aspects being increasingly common due to the increase in trains per hour) and I hope no one would want us to! Drivers will use full acceleration capabilities however when timetable and aspects permit.

In some respects I do believe that the gripes are more to do with capacity (indeed this is the downside of success). Longitudinal seating? Take it out of the 378's and overnight there would be people left on the platforms. 5 cars will bring some respite but I dare say dwell times might increase on 4 car platforms. I think there is more that might be done to educate passengers. I will occasionally make a PA to suggest that the 30 or 40 people still waiting to board through one door actually consider moving along to another set of doors that is less congested. Standing in front of the yellow line both as we arrive or depart doesn't help either - hence why there are platform staff around now at peak times. There is always a tipping point and unfortunately people will have to choose whether the overground is better or worse than the alternatives for the type of journey they are making.

 

[jon0844]

As someone never on one for more than 10-15 minutes I think they're fantastic overall and they look awesome too from the outside.

Inside they look a bit 70s District line but that is only my opinion. They are perfect for their intended use, meaning they'll probably be cascaded somewhere they're not in 10 years.

 

[tsr]

On Tramlink, there are PA system speakers on the outside of some (if not all) trams, which the driver can use to ask people to move down platforms, announce the destination or clear the platform if an emergency evacuation is needed, plus anything else. There are also automated and manual announcement systems onboard. I haven't heard these used all that regularly (I used to commute by Tramlink and still use them from time to time), but would they be worth considering for 378s?

The major problem would be an overload of announcements if the platform CIS was also used at exactly the same time - an alternative would be a roving radio-mic type system (with each train able to identify itself and allow the driver/conductor to broadcast announcements on the appropriate platform) - but could it help with directing passengers?

 

[Starmill]

On Tramlink, there are PA system speakers on the outside of some (if not all) trams, which the driver can use to ask people to move down platforms, announce the destination or clear the platform if an emergency evacuation is needed, plus anything else. There are also automated and manual announcement systems onboard. I haven't heard these used all that regularly (I used to commute by Tramlink and still use them from time to time), but would they be worth considering for 378s?

The major problem would be an overload of announcements if the platform CIS was also used at exactly the same time - an alternative would be a roving radio-mic type system (with each train able to identify itself and allow the driver/conductor to broadcast announcements on the appropriate platform) - but could it help with directing passengers?

Hmm, I think 'exterior' PAs are a tram thing tbh, I have a vague recollection that out M5000s up here have them. But if so, they are used very rarely!

 

[Nym]

Well I've been timing my dwell times and pretty much your looking at 30 seconds at most stations from stopping, releasing doors, observing the boarding and alighting process to closing the doors and safely departing. If 30 seconds is too long for the complainers maybe you should put on the white gloves and do what the Japanese do and push the slow coaches on faster

30 seconds is a very quick stop to roll time; the quickest I have ever managed is abour 17 seconds, and this is on LUL stock where "Blue Button to Wheels Rolling" is about 11 seconds...

I'm used to holding the door open button and the doors automatically opening the second they're unlocked.

On a 378 you must wait (hold the button and they won't open even when active - you must release and press again), which probably gives the impression that it takes longer. Not only that but I believe there's a delay with a series of warning beeps before they actually begin to open. Is it a necessary delay to open the doors or just a new safety thing?

I don't think it's a safety thing, as it's the case on older Bombardier stock as well, prior to Class 350s that operate on if it's pressed, not the action of pressing it. Is more likely to be a programming or hardware thing.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think it's a safety thing, as it's the case on older Bombardier stock as well, prior to Class 350s that operate on if it's pressed, not the action of pressing it. Is more likely to be a programming or hardware thing.

I'm struggling a bit with the distinction here - is it to do with if you let go again?

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm struggling a bit with the distinction here - is it to do with if you let go again?

With older stock you can hold the button down, then the second the driver releases the doors, they will open. With 378s, if the button is already held down when the driver releases the doors, you have to let go, then press the button again.

ie. on 378s, the transition from not pressed to pressed is what opens the doors.

 

[tsr]

I'm struggling a bit with the distinction here - is it to do with if you let go again?

I'm not sure what your question is here, but I do agree that (through no fault of his own) Nym is struggling to use the few available English words to explain much operation of Bombardier door buttons!

I think what is meant is that you cannot hold down a "Door Open" button on modern Bombardier stock (e.g. 377s, 378s and probably 379s) and expect the doors to open as soon as they are released by the driver, if you have started to push and hold before they have been released. You have to push once the doors have been released, although you can press effectively even if the short two-second-ish "lag time" has not yet been allowed.

EDIT: I think maniacmartin beat me to it, but just in case he didn't, this post will stay!

 

[Latecomer]

There are also automated and manual announcement systems onboard. I haven't heard these used all that regularly (I used to commute by Tramlink and still use them from time to time), but would they be worth considering for 378s?

The major problem would be an overload of announcements if the platform CIS was also used at exactly the same time

I tend to use PA's selectively - and never if there are platform staff using their own portable PA devices. We do have a fairly extensive PIS menu for all sorts of eventualities. I use these occasionally - but I sometimes think that people respond better to a 'live human' voice (especially when accounting for delays or when requiring action from individuals). Also, I tend to use the manual PA as a situation is developing, for example someone is holding the doors and in such an event it's much easier (easier = quicker = less delay) for me to just pick up the handset rather than scroll through a menu (I work DOO).

 

[class303]

Re the freight on the NLL - do any electric freight trains run all the way from the WCML to Felixstowe this way?

anyone? be interested to know the answer to this too.

 

[Starmill]

With older stock you can hold the button down, then the second the driver releases the doors, they will open. With 378s, if the button is already held down when the driver releases the doors, you have to let go, then press the button again.

ie. on 378s, the transition from not pressed to pressed is what opens the doors.

I'm not sure what your question is here, but I do agree that (through no fault of his own) Nym is struggling to use the few available English words to explain much operation of Bombardier door buttons!

I think what is meant is that you cannot hold down a "Door Open" button on modern Bombardier stock (e.g. 377s, 378s and probably 379s) and expect the doors to open as soon as they are released by the driver, if you have started to push and hold before they have been released. You have to push once the doors have been released, although you can press effectively even if the short two-second-ish "lag time" has not yet been allowed.

EDIT: I think maniacmartin beat me to it, but just in case he didn't, this post will stay!

Ah, I see. Thought it would be something subtle like that! Cheers I get the feeling that holding the button still works on Desiros? But then somebody mentioned Siemens.

 

[Bald Rick]

anyone? be interested to know the answer to this too.

No electrics go all the way from WCML to Felixstowe. But only because the wires don't go to Felixstowe.

Plenty of electric freight from DIRFT, Trafford Park and Scotland to Ipswich though.

 

[Manchester77]

Hmm, I think 'exterior' PAs are a tram thing tbh, I have a vague recollection that out M5000s up here have them. But if so, they are used very rarely!

Yep I remember when the front set of doors were broken on 3003 the driver announced they were at ever stop

 

[Andrewlong]

They wont be!

So the point of currently extending platforms from 8 to 12 coaches on the Waterloo to Reading line is ?

 

[Minstral25]

That section has a maximum linespeed of 25mph, and 10mph in and out of Clapham Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In regards to slowness closing the doors, from pushing the close button to getting interlock is around ten seconds, that's without passengers blocking the doors or holding them to get on.

Interesting comment - the "without Passengers blocking doors or holding them to get on"

I've noticed quite a lot on the WLL on full trains it takes a while for the passengers to get off as they have to squeeze past considerable numbers of passengers to get to the doors and then it takes a while for passengers to move down to let those on teh platform on.

However the doors are being closed often before anyone has a chance to get on and then obviously the passengers who have been queuing orderly then grab at doors to stop them closing

Should the dwell times be increased to allow passengers to get on or off at times when peak crowding is happening?

 

[NSEFAN]

So the point of currently extending platforms from 8 to 12 coaches on the Waterloo to Reading line is ?

10 coach extensions, not 12.

 

[Nym]

Ah, I see. Thought it would be something subtle like that! Cheers I get the feeling that holding the button still works on Desiros? But then somebody mentioned Siemens.

Yes, they work on every desiro I have used. (Everything but the 380)

Apologies before, I was using the technical terms from E&EE.

"Edge Detection" detects the rising or falling edge of a signal, in the case of the door buttons, it is detecting the action of the button being pressed at that instant. In electrical terms, the positive or negative change in voltage, depending on how the doors are wired up.

"Level Detecton" makes use of if the button is pressed or not, detecting the actual voltage level being produced.

You can have a combination of the two of these, and indeed I have seen it implemented in safety critical relay logic, where if you have a button pressed when the circuit becomes enabled, you must 're-stroke' the button, by releasing it and re-applying.

Note I'm not using, on, off, positive or negative, as low or high signals can be signified by positive, negative, on and off, or indeed different frequencies on the same line (Railway signalling) it's all about how you define it.

For example, what I'm working on now is using 115V AC @ 850Hz, -52V DC and 415/230V AC (3ph) @50Hz and they almost all interact...

 

[andykn]

I agree with you on that score, imps wharf is the samen however, you can ony build something with the land that you have available and if you can't buy up anythiong where you can have a decent overhang to provide stuff like shelters then you can only do what you can do.

The land for Imperial Wharf came from the development that required it. The council did a poor job of getting the station built on time in the first place, with such large development work in the area I'm sure a better station with longer platforms could have been demanded from the developer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The frequency to Battersea Park, frankly, is rubbish.

Battersea Park is not part of the official tfL "London Overground" network, but still has 4tph AFAIK.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Will it ever become an actual circle without the need to change at Clapham Junction ?

 

[MCR247]

I doubt it, and tbh I don't see why it should

 

[jopsuk]

Circular services tend not to work very well- they're very prone to disruption leading to "bunching" even if they don't share tracks with other services. Before the Circle Line became a "teacup" all services had a lengthy timetabled hold at Aldgate to smooth out disruption