Woolwich incident 22 May

[Darandio]

i would condone it in this case!

I dont suggest doing it by yourself but there were 20 people at the stop of the street milling about. It is wrong to stand by, especially when some poor bloke is hacked to death and the assailants are stood pontificating about it in the street! sorry but that is my view.

View respected.

But what if you then kill the guy? You would most likely go down for it such is the way our wonderful country works.

 

[jnjkerbin]

i would condone it in this case!

I dont suggest doing it by yourself but there were 20 people at the stop of the street milling about. It is wrong to stand by, especially when some poor bloke is hacked to death and the assailants are stood pontificating about it in the street! sorry but that is my view.

A handgun (as was reported) can easily be used to reduce the 20 people to rather less than 20.

 

[Johnuk123]

Terrible atrocity once again carried out in the name of religion.

 

[Antman]

Theres no point saying what people should have done, most had no idea what had happened.

 

[ilkestonian]

Theres no point saying what people should have done, most had no idea what had happened.

Yes. It seems the victim was hit by the car first. Passers by assumed the two were helping him, and didn't realise they were hacking him until they dragged the body to the middle of the road. At this stage the two were apparently standing around seeking attention, presumably to publicise their motives.

They then sought to shoot or otherwise attack the armed police when they arrived, but seemed uninterested in attacking other members of the public in the meantime.

 

[Johnuk123]

If what is being put around the internet is true it's truly sickening but unfortunately not surprising as this sort of thing has been planned before.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-terrorist-attack-live-updates-1904508

Daily Mirror tonight.

In February 2008 a Birmingham man was jailed for life for plotting to kidnap and kill a British Muslim soldier.
Parviz Khan admitted planning to lure the soldier off the streets with the promise of drugs - then film his beheading.
He was described in court as having "the most violent and extreme Islamist views", and the judge said his aim was to deter any Muslim from joining the British Army.]

 

[Bungle73]

I have just watched that ITV video and it is insane and disgusting.

What i cant understand is that there are groups of people at the top of the street milling about, why aren't they doing anything? Why aren't they beating those lunatics to death?

A man is hacked to death on a busy London street in broad daylight and people do nothing!

What an absolute load of rubbish. They did "nothing"? What the hell do you expect them to do? This isn't the movies where the bad guys always gets taken down. This is real life. Any one else would be very foolish to intervene.

I like the way when an incident like this happens you get internet tough guys coming on saying "Why didn't someone do something?" And you know what they would have done if they were there? Absolutely nothing, just like everybody else.....unless they had some kind if death wish.

And why aren't they "beating them to death"? Because a) these guys were armed with machetes, and b) because we live in a civilised country where people who commit crimes are put on trial and then, if found guilty, sentence by a court, not lynched by the mob.

View respected.

I don't, because it's complete clap trap.

But what if you then kill the guy? You would most likely go down for it such is the way our wonderful country works.

Um no. Only if it was a deliberate act of retribution.

 

[Johnuk123]

I have seen a lot of people who have "had a go" in the past some were justified in cases where they stopped a crime being committed but in this case people were probably right to stay out of it.

 

[Trog]

Is it just me that is sneaky enough to think that keeping them occupied being filmed, while the Police are on their way is actually a useful thing to do. No point tackling an armed man if you can keep him hanging about doing nothing harmful, until someone armed turns up.

 

[Darandio]

Um no. Only if it was a deliberate act of retribution.

Really?

Was the fella who protected his property and ending up shooting someone performing a deliberate act of retribution? Nope.

Edit*

Actually he did yes, before you start. I'll leave you to it.

 

[Bungle73]

Really?

Was the fella who protected his property and ending up shooting someone performing a deliberate act of retribution? Nope.

Tony Martin? The guy who shot a 16-year-old boy in the back when he was leaving and left him to bleed to death? That guy?

 

[Darandio]

Tony Martin? The guy who shot a 16-year-old boy in the back when he was leaving and left him to bleed to death? That guy?

Yeah, read above. I quit.

 

[DarloRich]

What an absolute load of bollocks. They did "nothing"? What the hell do you expect them to do? This isn't the movies where the bad guys always gets taken down. This is real life. Any one else would be very foolish to intervene.

I like the way when an incident like this happens you get internet tough guys coming on saying "Why didn't someone do something?" And you know what they would have done if they were there? Absolutely nothing, just like everybody else.....unless they had some kind if death wish.

And why aren't they "beating them to death"? Because a) these guys were armed with machetes, and b) because we live in a civilised country where people who commit crimes are put on trial and then, if found guilty, sentence by a court, not lynched by the mob.


I don't, because it's complete clap trap.


Um no. Only if it was a deliberate act of retribution.

Completely out of order. I am entitled to my view and there is no need to be insulting.

I consider this to be a terrible, disgusting and shameful crime. I also consider it to be terrible that people, such as yourself, think it is fine to stand by and allow this to happen.

I admit acting a lone would be suicidally stupid but my point is there are ore than enough people to do something about it.

Anyway the police dealt with them and if they survive, which i hope they do the assailants will be brought to justice.

 

[Bungle73]

Is it just me that is sneaky enough to think that keeping them occupied being filmed, while the Police are on their way is actually a useful thing to do. No point tackling an armed man if you can keep him hanging about doing nothing harmful, until someone armed turns up.

Th worrying thing is that these people don't seem to care about being killed or caught. They stand around after doing something like that for the world to film them and their faces. Truly shocking.

Completely out of order. I am entitled to my view and there is no need to be insulting.

I consider this to be a terrible, disgusting and shameful crime. I also consider it to be terrible that people, such as yourself, think it is fine to stand by and allow this to happen.

I admit acting a lone would be suicidally stupid but my point is there are ore than enough people to do something about it.

Anyway the police dealt with them and if they survive, which i hope they do the assailants will be brought to justice.

Cobblers.

If I was "insulting" then it was because what you wrote was asinine. And where did I say it was "fine", but you, in your internet tough guy pose seem to think a group of unarmed, untrained civilians should tackle a couple of guys who've just committed a cold-bloodied murder in the street and are still deadly armed. Like I said, asinine. I suggest you go back to watching your Rambo DVDs.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I absolutely guarantee that if members of the public had tried to intervene they would be dead alongside them and possibly made this worse. Their calm reaction and (if true) pandering to the assailants by recording their message would be an ideal way of keeping them from doing worse, at least for a little while, until the police arrived at minimum risk to themselves.

I actually think the public acted correctly and rationally. Just because people didn't overpower them doesn't mean they don't have a moral compass and what have you. Sometimes using your brain is better than using brute force.

 

[DarloRich]

Cobblers.

If I was "insulting" then it was because what you wrote was asinine. And where did I say it was "fine", but you, in your internet tough guy pose seem to think a group of unarmed, untrained civilians should tackle a couple of guys who've just committed a cold-bloodied murder in street and are still deadly armed. Like I said, asinine. I suggest you go back to watching your Rambo DVDs.

I am simply suggesting that i find it wrong that people seem to have stood about and done nothing.

I would like to think I would do something about it but in reality i would no doubt have run as fast as possible the other way. However I would still be ashamed of my self for doing so.

You disagree.

 

[Johnuk123]

Completely out of order. I am entitled to my view and there is no need to be insulting.

I consider this to be a terrible, disgusting and shameful crime. I also consider it to be terrible that people, such as yourself, think it is fine to stand by and allow this to happen.

I admit acting a lone would be suicidally stupid but my point is there are ore than enough people to do something about it.

Anyway the police dealt with them and if they survive, which i hope they do the assailants will be brought to justice.

You are entitled to your view and it's understandable.

About 10 years ago I had to tell a 26 yr old bride to be that her boyfriend had been stabbed to death 2 weeks before the wedding.

The young man had run after a bloke who had thrown a brick through a kebab shop window.

He caught the guy who turned on him and killed him with a single stab wound, all for a smashed window.

 

[Antman]

I absolutely guarantee that if members of the public had tried to intervene they would be dead alongside them and possibly made this worse. Their calm reaction and (if true) pandering to the assailants by recording their message would be an ideal way of keeping them from doing worse, at least for a little while, until the police arrived at minimum risk to themselves.

I actually think the public acted correctly and rationally. Just because people didn't overpower them doesn't mean they don't have a moral compass and what have you. Sometimes using your brain is better than using brute force.

How can you gaurantee that? Were you there? All this talk of what people should and shouldn't have done is just.ridiculous

 

[Captain Chaos]

How can you gaurantee that? Were you there? All this talk of what people should and shouldn't have done is just.ridiculous

Ok, perhaps guarantee is probably not the right way of saying it. I would say with a high degree of certainty then. He's proved he is capable of killing, he has the blood still on his hands, he still has the weapons there too, there is the possibility (though not confirmed as far as I am aware) that he also has a gun.

The odds would certainly not be in your favour, let's put it that way.

 

[YorkshireBear]

You are entitled to your view and it's understandable.

About 10 years ago I had to tell a 26 yr old bride to be that her boyfriend had been stabbed to death 2 weeks before the wedding.

The young man had run after a bloke who had thrown a brick through a kebab shop window.

He caught the guy who turned on him and killed him with a single stab wound, all for a smashed window.

That is a lesson to us all.

R.I.P to the guy who died.


What makes me sad is the pointless pages for likes being formed on facebook and the very apparent racism from many quarters.

 

[Antman]

That is a lesson to us all.

R.I.P to the guy who died.


What makes me sad is the pointless pages for likes being formed on facebook and the very apparent racism from many quarters.

Depends how you define racism.

None of us know what we would have done in a scene of total confusion, the suspects will be bought to justice so lets leave it at that

 

[youngboy]

Until you've stood there and had a knife pulled out on you nobody has any idea what they would do.
Me and a mate had a knife pulled on us a few years ago, I took a step back and indicated that I wasn't willing to go any further, my mate stepped forward and knocked him clean out with one punch.
Sometimes I look back and feel a bit embarrassed that I didn't step forward but its too late now !!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Depends how you define racism.

None of us know what we would have done in a scene of total confusion, the suspects will be bought to justice so lets leave it at that

I define racism as saying this is what all muslims want and we should drive them out of our country. As has been appearing on my various social media feeds.

 

[Heinz57]

I absolutely guarantee that if members of the public had tried to intervene they would be dead alongside them and possibly made this worse.

I completley agree with your comment, I think staying up there out of the way was the best thing to do. These guys were armed with a gun and some large knives. The passers by wouldn't have dared do anything through fear of lying on the street next to the soldier.

It may be arguable that a group of 20 odd people could have bought the guys down, but thats not before the attackers added another five people to the victims. None of them would have moved fearing they would be one of them

 

[Antman]

I completley agree with your comment, I think staying up there out of the way was the best thing to do. These guys were armed with a gun and some large knives. The passers by wouldn't have dared do anything through fear of lying on the street next to the soldier.

It may be arguable that a group of 20 odd people could have bought the guys down, but thats not before the attackers added another five people to the victims. None of them would have moved fearing they would be one of them

Its quite clear from many witness statements that there was much confusion over exactly what had happened, even when people saw the blood stained weapon many thought it was some sort of stunt. It was only when police arrived and the suspects were shot the seriousness became apparent.

 

[jon0844]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html

I think we will hear more in the coming days, and let's bear in mind the video wasn't continuous and didn't capture everything that happened or what other people were doing and seeing.

However, like 9/11, from now on people will think differently if they saw something like this and might step in where they wouldn't before (or not even considered something terrible was about to, or had already, happened).

 

[Bungle73]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html

I think we will hear more in the coming days, and let's bear in mind the video wasn't continuous and didn't capture everything that happened or what other people were doing and seeing.

However, like 9/11, from now on people will think differently if they saw something like this and might step in where they wouldn't before (or not even considered something terrible was about to, or had already, happened).

They wanted to "start a war"? Just the two of them?

I think what we have here is a pair of seriously unhinged individuals.

 

[Eagle]

I define racism as saying this is what all muslims want and we should drive them out of our country. As has been appearing on my various social media feeds.

I'm having a zero-tolerance clearout of my Facebook friends tonight. Because I'm sick of uninformed racist hate-speaking crap polluting my life.

 

[deltic1989]

I am simply suggesting that i find it wrong that people seem to have stood about and done nothing.

I would like to think I would do something about it but in reality i would no doubt have run as fast as possible the other way. However I would still be ashamed of my self for doing so.

You disagree.

For my part I respect your right to your opinion. I cannot though, truthfully say that I agree with it.
Going on the information that is currently in the public domain, even the 20 strong force you suggest would be at a serious tactical disadvantage.
Several witnesses have stated that they saw at least one of the attackers carrying a pistol type firearm if my memory of my weapons training serves me correctly, a pistol holds on average 12 to 15 rounds say he discharged 4 to 5 rounds in 'celebration' he is left with say 10 to 11 rounds, that's half your mob down already assuming each round finds its target.
Then we have to consider that witnesses say that both men had meat cleavers and machetes which could easily account for the rest of an un armed group.
In that situation for any unarmed person (regardless of weather they have training or not) it would be far better for their continuing health for them to keep their distance and call the Police.
Getting involved would serve no purpose other than to litter the street with the bodies of 'have a go heroes'.
Honestly if it was me in that situation I would want to put as much distance between me and the attackers as humanly possible and call the Police, it's not my job to get into confrontations with armed men (well not any more anyway). I have 3 Children to think about and one of the reasons I left the armed forces is because I couldn't bear that thought of them growing up with out a Father, it would be pretty silly on my part to orphan them whils popping out for a pint of milk.

That's just my 2 pennies for what it's worth.

I am not doubting that this is a tragic and frankly very scary event. Mrs D and I are very active fundraisers of H4H in our spare time and have several of their t-shirts and hoodies in our wardrobe which I may think twice about wearing for a while at least.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the victim's family at this very difficult time.

As with any religion you get your hard liners and frankly your outright nutcases, and whilst all evidence currently in the public domain is pointing towards this attack being motivated by religion. I will be taking the same line as Eagle to my Facebook friends list as the racism is frankly getting ridiculous. Just goes to show that it only takes a few to blacken the name of many.

 

[Bedpan]

The most sickening thing I have seen today is not the pools of blood in the road, nor the being who committed the atrocity standing with blood soaked hands, .... its a Daily Mirror picture accessed by a link on post 36 of this thread, the third picture on page 2 of 12 to be precise, which shows the police pointing guns at the two beings on the road. I can't bring myself to call them men, or humans, and yet the Mirtror chooses to publish a picture in which they are labelled as "Victims" - presumably because the police are pointing guns at them. Victims...they've just cut somebody's head off and they are referred to, in 2013, as VICTIMS. I completely despair.