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Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

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DavidL

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I take it they're getting even closer to St Helens Central station then.

It's going to change the landscape a bit near where the line is near the shoppers car parks.
They are heading that way but don't think there is anything past portico playing fields just yet. It really will change the landscape, would be good to have a photo diary from a few viewpoints showing the difference.

In further mast news, I've seen the first of what appear to be gantry uprights, rather than cantilevers, go up around - I think - Ecc Park, but do feel free to correct me as I wasn't paying too much attention.
 
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HowardGWR

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They are heading that way but don't think there is anything past portico playing fields just yet. It really will change the landscape, would be good to have a photo diary from a few viewpoints showing the difference.

In further mast news, I've seen the first of what appear to be gantry uprights, rather than cantilevers, go up around - I think - Ecc Park, but do feel free to correct me as I wasn't paying too much attention.

Have you seen this chap's website?

http://www.nw-sparks.co.uk/livman.shtml
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Went into Manchester today and coming back, it appears the mast majority of catenary is now in place, with the small number of gaps now getting shorter and the Castlefield Viaduct is now also fully wired up.

Not doing all that well, really.
Today the half-mile wiring gap in the Up (eastbound) line near the M602 roundabout was still there, despite the Down line having been wired about 3 weeks ago.

Further west at Glazebury, the gap of over a mile has been wired on the Up, but with only 2 of the 4 wires (the return and auto-transformer feed).
The similar gap in the Down still has no wires at all.

If you look closely at the wiring east of Glazebury, it is still very "unfinished", with odd unconnected cantilevers and droppers and bits of loose wire around.
The auto-transformer wire is missing on several stretches. I don't see it being powered up for another month at least.

Several big excavations have appeared on the south side of the viaduct towards Victoria between Ordsall Lane and Deal St Jns.
It's difficult to tell if these are for electrification work or maybe Ordsall Chord preliminaries.

On the Wigan branch I counted 61 masts in place on both lines west of Thatto Heath (more on the Down than the Up), including some of the larger lattice ones.
That seems to be a rate of about 10 masts a night, which seems good going.
No new foundation work that I could detect, they peter out soon after Bryn.

The work at Roby seems to be recovering the original brickwork from the old slow line platforms, rather than rebuilding them.
It's still difficult to see what is going on in that area as the main work seems to be strengthening of the north side of the embankment before construction of the new layout can start.
 
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Interesting picture of an ATW class 175 at Earlestown, which will still see diesel traction under the wires, after electrification of this line, on the Manchester Piccadilly to Llandudno services.

Under the Northern Hub, aren't trains from the West heading into Victoria?
 

Eagle

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I thought the service pattern had North Wales trains going to the Airport via Piccadilly, and an additional service from Chester to Caldervale via Victoria (or something like that)?
 

DJH1971

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I've just had wind that at platform 3 at Earlestown (the platform for trains coming from Warrington to Liverpool) there is now at least one mast base in place.

Could be a sign of mast bases about to be appearing between Earlestown and Huyton.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I've just had wind that at platform 3 at Earlestown (the platform for trains coming from Warrington to Liverpool) there is now at least one mast base in place.

Could be a sign of mast bases about to be appearing between Earlestown and Huyton.

That's the one bit of the route I didn't check out yesterday...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I thought the service pattern had North Wales trains going to the Airport via Piccadilly, and an additional service from Chester to Caldervale via Victoria (or something like that)?

Thanks for that. The Manchester Airport connection was one that I had in mind when I made my posting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Under the Northern Hub, aren't trains from the West heading into Victoria?

The point that I intended to highlight was the ATW service from Llandudno would still see diesel traction from the Earlestown station point under the electrified Liverpool to Manchester line once this is fully operational.

I am sure the matter of diesel traction operating "under the wires" has featured in many threads and postings in past years on the RailUK website.
 

WatcherZero

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Its not that bad a match, pretty close pink stone just ones clean and the others been caked in dirt since 1829!
 

YorkshireBear

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In my head i had it as last Friday of month which is usually the 4th Friday... forgot this month has the extra one in.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I too have an annual subscription for Modern Railways as you do and the advantage is that you always have it delivered to your home address prior to it being on sale in retail outlets.

You can usually pick it up at Ian Allan shops a day or two before WH Smiths have it.
When I last went to the Birmingham shop I discovered it had been consumed by the new entrance to New St station!
New shop is round the corner at 12 Ethel St.
 

HowardGWR

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I too have an annual subscription for Modern Railways as you do and the advantage is that you always have it delivered to your home address prior to it being on sale in retail outlets.

I have mine delivered too. Why is that an advantage to get it a day earlier than in the shops?
 

GRALISTAIR

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In the Sepember 2013 issue of Modern Railways, there is an 8pp article on the North-West wiring project.

I am traveling back to England for a short visit tomorrow. Will buy a copy. Thanks for the heads up. I will also be getting the train from Manchester Airport to Preston so I can observe progress in Castlefield Windsor Link area too.
 

ed1971

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Likewise, the 307s on Leeds-Doncaster were far better than the 141s, 142s and 144s (plus occasional sprinters or 'heritage' units!) they replaced.

That said, I'd rather we'd soldiered on with the heritage units for another 10 years while BR saved up for something better than a pacer!

Hi,

I would have to beg to differ. Looking back it is easy to forget just how bad the first generation DMUs were. With the exception of the Class 123s with B4 and B5 bogies, the ride was very abysmal and there was much vibration from the engines. On welded track they were also prone to 'bogie hunting'. With the exception of certain classes with more powerful engines (eg: Classes 110, 111, 114, 115, 123, 124, 125, 127) they were slow and lurched when the gears were being changed and could not keep to time on a 142/150 diagram. A number of heritage units had low backed seats, the class 103s had bus seats and the Class 108 seats were not much more substantial.

I very much doubt that most of the first generation DMUs would have lasted another 10 years. The Class 104s were already past being life expired when withdrawn and other classes were withdrawn earlier to remove stock containing asbestos.

The collision at Hyde North Central on 22 August 1990, revealed that the Class 108s were in poor structural condition and were consequently withdrawn by 1993. This left a number of refurbished Class 101s to soldier on until 2003 in the Manchester area.


A friend of mine who remembers steam was only telling me last week that Pacers are far far far superior to the heritage DMUs that they replaced and people who criticize them forget this. From my own experiences I have to agree with him.

With regards to EMUs, I have never travelled on Class 307s or 308s. However I have travelled on similar 304s, 305s and 504s in the Manchester area. Again, the ride quality was poor with the seat cushions acting as part of the suspension! The ambiance and visibility was not that good due to the small windows.

I recall that when Class 308s were introduced in West Yorkshire in the mid 1990s, there were a lot of reliability problems. There was some discussion about returning the stored Class 141s to service, to cover for them. It was ruled out, because they had been stored for a number of months and would have needed remedial work including new batteries.
 

Gwenllian2001

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Hi,

I would have to beg to differ. Looking back it is easy to forget just how bad the first generation DMUs were. With the exception of the Class 123s with B4 and B5 bogies, the ride was very abysmal and there was much vibration from the engines. On welded track they were also prone to 'bogie hunting'. With the exception of certain classes with more powerful engines (eg: Classes 110, 111, 114, 115, 123, 124, 125, 127) they were slow and lurched when the gears were being changed and could not keep to time on a 142/150 diagram. A number of heritage units had low backed seats, the class 103s had bus seats and the Class 108 seats were not much more substantial.

I think that it is very much a case of horses for courses. The Class 116 DMUs in South Wales did keep time to 150 diagrams when the trailers were removed and they were much more comfortable than the Sprinters, better seats and ample leg room. On these services, high speed running was not a factor and they were ideally suited to the job. Mechanically, the Sprinters have been a success but, from a passenger's point of view, they are cramped and too many seats are situated next to a blank wall.

If the Sprinters had bodywork designed around passengers they would be excellent.
 

bluenoxid

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9 Feb 2008
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Hi,

I would have to beg to differ. Looking back it is easy to forget just how bad the first generation DMUs were. With the exception of the Class 123s with B4 and B5 bogies, the ride was very abysmal and there was much vibration from the engines. On welded track they were also prone to 'bogie hunting'. With the exception of certain classes with more powerful engines (eg: Classes 110, 111, 114, 115, 123, 124, 125, 127) they were slow and lurched when the gears were being changed and could not keep to time on a 142/150 diagram. A number of heritage units had low backed seats, the class 103s had bus seats and the Class 108 seats were not much more substantial.

I very much doubt that most of the first generation DMUs would have lasted another 10 years. The Class 104s were already past being life expired when withdrawn and other classes were withdrawn earlier to remove stock containing asbestos.

The collision at Hyde North Central on 22 August 1990, revealed that the Class 108s were in poor structural condition and were consequently withdrawn by 1993. This left a number of refurbished Class 101s to soldier on until 2003 in the Manchester area.


A friend of mine who remembers steam was only telling me last week that Pacers are far far far superior to the heritage DMUs that they replaced and people who criticize them forget this. From my own experiences I have to agree with him.

With regards to EMUs, I have never travelled on Class 307s or 308s. However I have travelled on similar 304s, 305s and 504s in the Manchester area. Again, the ride quality was poor with the seat cushions acting as part of the suspension! The ambiance and visibility was not that good due to the small windows.

I recall that when Class 308s were introduced in West Yorkshire in the mid 1990s, there were a lot of reliability problems. There was some discussion about returning the stored Class 141s to service, to cover for them. It was ruled out, because they had been stored for a number of months and would have needed remedial work including new batteries.

It is refreshing to have this view. The 308's were not fantastic but they did the job fairly well once they settled in. Despite their age, battered looks, a clean, good repaint and fair maintenance drove the Sparks effect on the Triangle. How much of it was sparks and how much of it was the increase in the number of jobs in Leeds and worsening traffic congestion (Bingley Bypass only opened in 2004), I don't know, but they set up a fairly decent route.

They weren't amazing were the 308's but they offered a stop gap and a useful one at that.
 

DJH1971

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It just brings us around to the question again of what EMUS are coming to Liverpool to Manchester (& Liverpool to Wigan & so on), with the notable exception of the 350's for TPE.

Not sure about the 319's, but what about 317's & 321's?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It just brings us around to the question again of what EMUS are coming to Liverpool to Manchester (& Liverpool to Wigan & so on), with the notable exception of the 350's for TPE.

Not sure about the 319's, but what about 317's & 321's?

On one of my recent trips Wigan-Liverpool I got on a 150 which had "old-style" 2+3 seats (ie the original seating with new covers).
The seating was exactly the same as I remember the original 2+3 NSE 319s to be.
I don't know if they have all been refurbished yet, but if not it is possible the 319s will turn up in Liverpool and the public will not notice any difference from the 150s they are replacing (apart from the seat covers)...
From a passenger perspective the seats were too small/too low and with a very poor view.
Hopefully somebody is planning to improve them before they arrive in the north-west.
Dynamically, of course, they are in a different league to the 150s.
 
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