Cancelling services short of the destination

[Goatboy]

I know why they do this but this is very frustrating - on Friday FGW decided to turn the 12:27 Southampton Central to Great Malvern around at Worcester, where it arrived 11 minutes late. They cancelled the 16:48 Great Malvern to Westbury and started it from Worcester.

This left a load of passengers stuck at Great Malvern, where...

a) The booking office was yet again shut before the allocated closing time, so no assistance was available, just a departure board saying 'Cancelled'. If there had been staff present then perhaps somebody would have been able to arrange taxi's to Cheltenham where, by road, you can quite easily arrive in time to make the connection.
b) The next Great Malvern/Worcester to Cheltenham/Bristol service was 2 hours later.

Particularly irritating for those connecting into XC services as part of a much longer journey.

I suppose the reason for this post is two fold.

a) Ranting about it makes me feel better
b) Does anyone know why they would turn it around for such a small delay? Was there some other reason? This would also make me feel better

It's really annoying that the needs of those on the next service not to be 5-10 minutes late outweigh the needs of those standing at an unmanned station in the cold for the next 2 hours. I get the point when the inbound service has an enormous delay but 11 minutes? If the service frequency is high then fair enough but on a service that runs only 2 hourly it seems harsh on those left out in the cold, so speak!

Is this the sort of thing that TOC's now find themselves having to do as a result of the culture of delay minutes?

 

[TheEdge]

It's really annoying that the needs of those on the next service not to be 5-10 minutes late outweigh the needs of those standing at an unmanned station in the cold for the next 2 hours. I get the point when the inbound service has an enormous delay but 11 minutes? If the service frequency is high then fair enough but on a service that runs only 2 hourly it seems harsh on those left out in the cold, so speak!

11m is a fairly significant delay. What you need to remember is that it'll remain late throughout its journey. That train for example has to reverse at Gloucester, cross the GWML, stop at Bristol and then get into Westbury.

(The following is not necessarily correct for this train but is an example)
Those are all busy areas. It might have to wait to cross the line or for at platform at Gloucester which will delay it more. It would then be delayed when it got to the GWML. Also a train stood in the platforms at Bristol Parkway is actually blocking the main line between Wales and London so if it was late it might end up delaying a train heading into or out of London. Same at Temple Meads, it may have lost its platform and have to wait there for one to become available or delay another train.

In short that not too long delay could easily ripple out across the network so FGW will turn a train early if it running late will cause problems elsewhere later on.

 

[30907]

Looking at the timetable shows: running the train through to Great Malvern would have delayed the following New Street-Hereford which in turn would have delayed the 1640 Hereford-BHM which it crosses at Ledbury, both by 10 minutes or so. In addition, the 1641 Great Malvern would have been at least 5 late start (the shunt via Malvern Wells doesn't help anything) - and the rest is on TheEdge's post. That's a lot of delayed passengers.

As it is, passengers travelling GMV-Worcester were delayed 20 minutes, and only those travelling beyond were really seriously put out. (Just out of interest, what proportion of the crowd on the platform was that?)

May not have been the only reasonable decision, but certainly A reasonable one IMO.

 

[Goatboy]

As it is, passengers travelling GMV-Worcester were delayed 20 minutes, and only those travelling beyond were really seriously put out. (Just out of interest, what proportion of the crowd on the platform was that?)

May not have been the only reasonable decision, but certainly A reasonable one IMO.

Probably 70% or so I'd guess though most were headed only as as Bristol from the conversations. The frustrating thing was there was no information provision, nothing. Just 'Cancelled' on the display. The ticket office being shut early was London Midlands fault not FGW's but it just compounded to make a crappy situation even worse.

If it was a more frequent service fair enough but every 2 hours is, IMHO, sufficient that it's somewhat unfair to simply abandon those at Great Malvern and Malvern Link on the platform. The help-point appears to just be a telephone link to NRES, who are of no real use (Though they can't authorise things anyway so it's not really their fault they were of no use).

And, as I said, ranting makes me feel better

 

[maniacmartin]

I think the bigger problem here is the ticket office being shut when it was supposed to be open, and no taxis being provided. Even if the station was currently unmanned, can control not use the help point to arrange taxis for whoever is there?

 

[island]

I was about to say, why didn't the passengeres at Great Malvern use the help point?

 

[Goatboy]

The help point just went through to a call centre, which I assumed was just NRES.

They offered no help.

 

[VisualAcid]

I've had problems with the same service where when it's running late they'll miss out Oldfield Park on the way from Keynsham to Bath Spa, meaning I've missed my reserved SWT to Waterloo amongst others, which was a pain having to explain Megatrain to FGW staff.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I was about to say, why didn't the passengeres at Great Malvern use the help point?

Help points are generally connected to NRES, not to the TOC's control room.

Not the same TOC, I know, but the last time I was at Aylesbury the guy on the help point didn't even know where that was.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If there were so many for the Bristol direction (ie beyond Worcester), did anybody think of rerouting?
There were options via Bromsgrove/Cheltenham (LM/XC) or Hereford (LM/ATW/FGW), with only half an hour delay.
Better than hanging about Great Malvern for 2 hours, nice though it is.

 

[Taunton]

One wonders who diagrammed a 4-hour plus journey cutting across a wide range of other services (as described above) to then have just a 15 minute turnround before setting off back on the return run.

Of course, it was never traditional for trains from the Bristol direction to run through Worcester to Malvern. The whole thing is just squeezed in as an obvious ORCATS raid to scoop some of the London Midland revenue on the Worcester to Malvern section, leading to this sort of unreliability.

Of course, when turnrounds were more sensible, if the inbound was badly delayed it was common for crews to make a 2-minute turnround to get back on time for departure. This attitude seems to have disappeared, strangely in conjunction with train crews being pulled up from a mediocre paying position to one that now pays very well indeed in comparison to the rest of society.

It should be counted in the statistics as two cancellations, which in all truth it is, a penalty to the operator for over-egging their diagrams. Unfortunately this is the sort of thing that happens when "performance measures" become the sole focus of management, to the exclusion of passenger convenience and anything else. The "objectives must be measureable" attitude is so 1990s, nowadays somewhat discredited in management because it leads to 'managing the figures not managing the business'. There are better ways.

Gerry Fiennes, as ever, had the answer to this sort of thing long ago. When presented with a comparable recurring situation which was going to be addressed by an inconvenience to passengers he said No, the solution is not to cut the train out, the solution is to ensure it runs on time in the first place.

 

[30907]

Probably 70% or so I'd guess though most were headed only as as Bristol from the conversations.

If it was a more frequent service fair enough but every 2 hours is, IMHO, sufficient that it's somewhat unfair to simply abandon those at Great Malvern and Malvern Link on the platform. /QUOTE]

To my surprise NRE gives a connection in under 2 hours via Bromsgrove and Cheltenham off the 1710 and 1810(ish). This reinforces my point about balancing one delay against another.

I entirely agree though that it is poor practice to expect passengers to use their phones to find this out and think a complaint is in order, especially if the help point was unable to divulge this info.

 

[Goatboy]

via Bromsgrove is not a permitted route. There is a negative easement which prevents its use (I have whinged about this on this forum before!). The only thing the Help Point was able to do was point out that the Bromsgrove option NRES threw up (unpriced) was not valid. There were no FGW staff around to endorse the ticket to travel via this route and given that it involved both LM and XC it seemed risky at best if a train manager took umbridge at it!

Didn't know about the Hereford one though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One wonders who diagrammed a 4-hour plus journey cutting across a wide range of other services (as described above) to then have just a 15 minute turnround before setting off back on the return run.

Of course, it was never traditional for trains from the Bristol direction to run through Worcester to Malvern. The whole thing is just squeezed in as an obvious ORCATS raid to scoop some of the London Midland revenue on the Worcester to Malvern section, leading to this sort of unreliability.

I agree, it's very annoying that the only connection opportunities between Malvern and Cheltenham, two reasonable population centres seperated by about 20 miles (One of which is a major changing point for other services to elsewhere in the country) is FGW's bizarrely long 'Here, there and everywhere' services between Great Malvern and Brighton (and various stations between the two as origin points, ie Southampton, Westbury, Weymouth). They are always running into delays simply because of the sheer length they operate, often with Class 150's.

Nobody else provides service between Worcester and Cheltenham unfortunately (Well, there is an LM service at midnight for some reason).

 

[TUC]

It does beg the question what a TOC does about passengers requiring assistance when, as in the OP example, a train unexpectedly terminates at a station with no staff present.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

via Bromsgrove is not a permitted route. There is a negative easement which prevents its use (I have whinged about this on this forum before!). The only thing the Help Point was able to do was point out that the Bromsgrove option NRES threw up (unpriced) was not valid. There were no FGW staff around to endorse the ticket to travel via this route and given that it involved both LM and XC it seemed risky at best if a train manager took umbridge at it!

Didn't know about the Hereford one though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree, it's very annoying that the only connection opportunities between Malvern and Cheltenham, two reasonable population centres seperated by about 20 miles (One of which is a major changing point for other services to elsewhere in the country) is FGW's bizarrely long 'Here, there and everywhere' services between Great Malvern and Brighton (and various stations between the two as origin points, ie Southampton, Westbury, Weymouth). They are always running into delays simply because of the sheer length they operate, often with Class 150's.

Nobody else provides service between Worcester and Cheltenham unfortunately (Well, there is an LM service at midnight for some reason).

I checked the route from GMV to Bristol via Hereford/Newport - it's Permitted, hourly service.
For best effect at the time you would have to get the 1645 westwards from Great Malvern instead of the 1648 eastwards.
It's not clear if the OP found out about the cancellation of the 1648 in time.

 

[Goatboy]

Thats a useful one for next time - it gets you to Bristol just in time for the South West XC service an hour after the one you'd make if the 16:48 ran as normal, so an hour late but better than nothing.

The 5 minute change at Newport looks fun though and would result in being 2 hours later than original time if you missed that!

 

[bb21]

The 5 minute change at Newport looks fun though and would result in being 2 hours later than original time if you missed that!

But if you waited for the next service you would have been two hours late anyway, so might as well take a punt.

Five minutes at Newport should be more than sufficient if everything runs on time. Platform 1 to 4 is slightly dodgy if a couple of minutes down.

 

[FOH]

It does beg the question what a TOC does about passengers requiring assistance when, as in the OP example, a train unexpectedly terminates at a station with no staff present.

I would try and get others to club together for a taxi. You would like to think that FGW didn't cancel it at the last minute and there'd be time to pick it up at Ashchurch given how close the towns are together.

Google maps puts the car journey at 28mins vs the train which takes 36mins. Unless you'd arrived only just in time for the 1648 there's a chance to catch it.

I'd then try and claim the taxi cost back - no idea if FGW is culpable though.

 

[1e10]

It does beg the question what a TOC does about passengers requiring assistance when, as in the OP example, a train unexpectedly terminates at a station with no staff present.

Is there a phone number that passengers can call if they require such assistance?

 

[trainophile]

Are the ramps locked into place, or could other passengers access them to help a wheelchair off a train in an emergency?

 

[hussra]

It does beg the question what a TOC does about passengers requiring assistance when, as in the OP example, a train unexpectedly terminates at a station with no staff present.

I recall some years ago being shown a photograph of a Iarnród Éireann station - I think it was on the Limerick Junction-Waterford line - with a payphone under the canopy. Next to the payphone was a sign saying something like "If this telephone rings, please answer it. There may be an important message from the signalman about the running of your train."

 

[dzug2]

One wonders who diagrammed a 4-hour plus journey cutting across a wide range of other services (as described above) to then have just a 15 minute turnround before setting off back on the return run.

There is the problem of where to park the unit for a more extended turnaround

Nobody else provides service between Worcester and Cheltenham unfortunately (Well, there is an LM service at midnight for some reason).

LM used to provide a more frequent service which proved unsuccessful.

 

[FFC]

Surely the simple answer is not to allow the train to head back, until the staff on the train have told the customers what provision has been made to get them to their destination.

 

[Goatboy]

Surely the simple answer is not to allow the train to head back, until the staff on the train have told the customers what provision has been made to get them to their destination.

The train never arrived, it was turned back before it reached GMV to begin its next journey.

 

[dk1]

Surely the simple answer is not to allow the train to head back, until the staff on the train have told the customers what provision has been made to get them to their destination.

& cause even more chaos? They are hardly going to starve to death. Why make a situation even worse?

 

[FFC]

Yes, what I meant was at Worcester the customers prevent the train leaving until the train staff have explained what arrangements they have made for the customers to complete their journey.

 

[tsr]

Are the ramps locked into place, or could other passengers access them to help a wheelchair off a train in an emergency?

I am aware that certain TOCs have guidance that staff may seek passenger help - as a last resort - if a ramp is urgently needed, but I have never seen any information to say that they should ask members of the public to use them single-handedly without staff advice. They wouldn't be trained to handle it, and so it would have to be for emergency evacuation only - at best! But a member of staff should not refuse to deal with a person requiring more accessible facilities and should always find someone to deal with the situation, if that's at all practical (so a guard may need to help as best they can, I suppose).

 

[TB]

One service that has occasionally to be terminated short is the Leeds to Heysham boat train.

The section between Morecambe and Heysham isn't signed by the Yorkshire crew and is worked by Barrow crew, however, when they can't get to Lancaster (I believe they travel on the cushions from Barrow), the train terminates at Morecambe.

IIRC, Yorkshire crews cannot be taught the road as it would be transferring west side ex-FNW work to the ex-ATN east side which Northern apparently are not allowed to do.

 

[Goatboy]

Yes, what I meant was at Worcester the customers prevent the train leaving until the train staff have explained what arrangements they have made for the customers to complete their journey.

I doubt anyone on it at Worcester would be bothered enough for that as a London Midland service was along a few minutes later.

 

[FFC]

"make a situation worse" - Don't be silly. The professional train crew will have already liaised with the people who instructed the change to establish what the arrangements are to minimise inconvenience to customers. It will only take a few seconds to communicate that information over the tannoy. Hence why I suggested the customers hold the train, as obviously the failure to make that announcement was an oversight that is quickly rectified.