Pont Briwet to be closed to trains until 2015 [Update - now reopened as of Sept 2014]

[Squaddie]

NR are not funding it the money is coming from European funds and other Welsh Government grants looking for a home.

If the Welsh Government doesn't spend money on rail you complain, and if they do you dismiss it as "grants looking for a home". It does seem as though the government can't win whatever they do.

 

[OxtedL]

Having read the Institute of Economic Affairs blog about Beeching last night there are still those that believe in the profitable core.

Fortunately a lot of what the IEA throw out remains just far enough outside mainstream political thinking to be largely unworrying. You have to hope.

 

[merlodlliw]

Very unfortunate if the line is to be closed for as long as seems to be the case. The schools may get used to using buses instead of trains - with serious revenue consequences for the railway.

1) Surely the compensation to ATW should be related to the costs / damages incurred offset by any savings generated i.e. loss of fares (if any), costs of buses, taxi for crew etc, verses savings on fuel, unit wear and tear / maintenance etc.

2) As an aside, how many traincrew are based at Pwllheli? I've often wondered how difficult / efficient it is to operate outposts such as these with only 1 or 2 trains based at a particular location. Similar to Mallaig, Fort William and Oban. If it is efficient to operate Pwllheli in mid Wales, why concentrate drivers at Carmarthen instead of outposts as Pembroke, Milford Haven and Fishguard?

With all respect Pwllheli is in North Wales.As for buses the County Council will have to decide,the train is the only form of public transport in many areas of the Cambrian Coast.

Closure by stealth......

I dont see any line closing in Wales. A colleague who works for the National Park tells me there was nothing structurally wrong with the current bridge

From the County Council website
Update 02-01-2014

Signficant potholes have appeared in the road, and we need to raise the road surface to assess the damage. Unfortunately, this means Pont Briwet will remain closed to road traffic for the foreseeable future. We apologise for any inconvenience but we must ensure the road is safe before it reopens.

Trains are cancelled between Harlech and Pwllheli, with a replacement bus service - the latest details will be on http://www.journeycheck.com/arrivatrainswales.

It's not an NR driven project anyway its the local authority driven by people complaining about being held up by the traffic lights and tolls on the road part of the bridge, its a make life easier for the motorist project. NR are not funding it the money is coming from European funds and other Welsh Government grants looking for a home. The local transport consortia TraCC have led on it as well. NR have been offered a new bridge at little cost to themselves there's no suggestion the bridge was unsafe before the new bridges construction altered the dynamics of the river and caused damage to the old one.

Gareth

Indeed its not Network Driven,they are the revenue tollmasters for all road traffic on the bridge. WG bought out the road tolls on the Cob at Portmadoc,perhaps this would have been a cheaper option here.But Euro founding wont buy out road tolls revenue from Network Rail. Food for thought perhaps.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If the Welsh Government doesn't spend money on rail you complain, and if they do you dismiss it as "grants looking for a home". It does seem as though the government can't win whatever they do.

Sorry I used jargon let me explain. There are tranches of capital grant funding available to bid for they will never cover 100% of a projects cost. When these funds become available organisations are invited to bid for funds. They have to find other funding as well so whilst a lot of projects are tentatively interested they don't always go forward as the other funding is not always forthcoming. When a project achieves a certain critical mass they find getting the remaining funding jigsaw pieces easier as these grant tranches have to be spent in certain time frames and tend to gravitate to where they will be spent. The size of what's avaiable also drives what projects get going a project may suddenly come from nowhere as it happens to be the right size to spend the funding currently on offer. Hence Officers have grants looking for homes.
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Fortunately a lot of what the IEA throw out remains just far enough outside mainstream political thinking to be largely unworrying. You have to hope.

Yes their vehemently anti HS2 but outside mainstream political thinking on this.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why 'by stealth'?

In the current climate, with the far right (from an economic perspective) in charge (in London) and cuts to public services all over the place, why bother with stealth!

Go full on with closure(s) and blame it on 'the deficit'.

Reduce the amount allocated for transport in Wales and let the Welsh Assembly take the awkward decisions and the flak.

I think the Heart of Wales people need be more worried - rumour / gossip / misinformed malcontents (delete as applicable) had that down as a dead duck as soon as Wales got devolved powers. Fortunately this has not, yet, come to pass.

I don't think that Westminster has any financial "say" over the way the Welsh Assembly Government wish to pay towards transport expenditure. It is one of the things that has been devolved to them.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

BR did it in 1980 when the Barmouth bridge was shut, they set up a temporary depot at Pwllheli, depot code PI, and maintained a couple of 101s there.

http://www.2d53.co.uk/cambriancoast/Pwllheli - 26-12-80.htm

Nice pictures.

I calculate 14 DMU carriages for a service between Barmouth and Pwllheli. Even allowing for maintenance spares, how many would be required to provide that service today?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I calculate 14 DMU carriages for a service between Barmouth and Pwllheli.

Because of the Pont Briwet bridge works, no Pwllheli service can access Barmouth in this time period. Harlech was the agreed temporary northern limit on the line before the current tidal damage problem occurred.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Because of the Pont Briwet bridge works, no Pwllheli service can access Barmouth in this time period. Harlech was the agreed temporary northern limit on the line before the current tidal damage problem occurred.

A misunderstanding!

I was thinking of the decline in rail traffic even since the 1980's, comparing the number of carriages required to operate a shuttle service between Barmouth and Pwllheli then (14 carriages) and now - perhaps only 6 carriages including spares for maintenance.

I'm not proposing any temporary service, merely contrasting then and now.

The link shows pictures of 6 units / 14 carriages parked up at Pwllheli on Boxing Day whilst the Barmouth Bridge underwent beatles removal.

 

[edwin_m]

According to National Rail, ATW are operating from Carmarthen westwards while sea wall damage has closed the line between Carmarthen and Lanelli. This does at least demonstrate that they are prepared to do so when the "enclave" contains enough trains and crews to make it worthwhile (I believe some crews are based at Carmarthen). It will be interesting to see what happens if the repairs are prolonged, as the marooned trains will have to visit a depot for mainenance at some stage.

 

[Rich McLean]

According to National Rail, ATW are operating from Carmarthen westwards while sea wall damage has closed the line between Carmarthen and Lanelli. This does at least demonstrate that they are prepared to do so when the "enclave" contains enough trains and crews to make it worthwhile (I believe some crews are based at Carmarthen). It will be interesting to see what happens if the repairs are prolonged, as the marooned trains will have to visit a depot for mainenance at some stage.

They would Low-load them out I presume if they need any major maintenance

 

[merlodlliw]

According to National Rail, ATW are operating from Carmarthen westwards while sea wall damage has closed the line between Carmarthen and Lanelli. This does at least demonstrate that they are prepared to do so when the "enclave" contains enough trains and crews to make it worthwhile (I believe some crews are based at Carmarthen). It will be interesting to see what happens if the repairs are prolonged, as the marooned trains will have to visit a depot for mainenance at some stage.

Carmarthen is a crew dept like Chester up here.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think that Westminster has any financial "say" over the way the Welsh Assembly Government wish to pay towards transport expenditure. It is one of the things that has been devolved to them.

No, that's not true.
Only "local transport" and roads are devolved.
The main bulk of rail spend (ie Network Rail and the W&B franchise funds) still comes from Westminster via the HLOS.

 

[edwin_m]

They would Low-load them out I presume if they need any major maintenance

Indeed so, and it will be interesting to see (if it goes on that long) whether they bring other replacement units in or just abandon the service at that point.

 

[jones_bangor]

No, that's not true.
Only "local transport" and roads are devolved.
The main bulk of rail spend (ie Network Rail and the W&B franchise funds) still comes from Westminster via the HLOS.

The Barnett consequential would also apply here as well.

So if English policy, confirmed by Westminster, were to close a tranche of unprofitable rural lines e.g. to keep fare rises down elsewhere, Wales would also have its allocation reduced. It would be up to WG to decide how to absorb those cuts......

I think HoW, Cambrian Coast, Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston and one of the Pembs lines might be "vulnerable"....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So if English policy, confirmed by Westminster, were to close a tranche of unprofitable rural lines e.g. to keep fare rises down elsewhere, Wales would also have its allocation reduced. It would be up to WG to decide how to absorb those cuts......I think HoW, Cambrian Coast, Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston and one of the Pembs lines might be "vulnerable"....

Do not forget that with the date of the next general election ever drawing nearer, the Government would not dare to proceed with such measures for reasons of fostering a backlash from the electorate. They may well be accused of being heartless, but they are not stupid.

Popularity is everything in politics.

 

[merlodlliw]

The Barnett consequential would also apply here as well.

So if English policy, confirmed by Westminster, were to close a tranche of unprofitable rural lines e.g. to keep fare rises down elsewhere, Wales would also have its allocation reduced. It would be up to WG to decide how to absorb those cuts......

I think HoW, Cambrian Coast, Conwy Valley, Wrexham-Bidston and one of the Pembs lines might be "vulnerable"....

I dont see the Wrexham/Bidston being vulnerable, I would guess LLandudno to Llandudno Junc is more vunerable, but no lines are going to close in Wales.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I dont see the Wrexham/Bidston being vulnerable, I would guess LLandudno to Llandudno Junc is more vunerable, but no lines are going to close in Wales.

Llandudno remains at present a terminal railway station for the ATW services from Manchester and quaint though the attractions of Llandudno Junction are, they do not offer attractions enough to compete.

 

[merlodlliw]

No, that's not true.
Only "local transport" and roads are devolved.
The main bulk of rail spend (ie Network Rail and the W&B franchise funds) still comes from Westminster via the HLOS.

On your points above,how do you see the Wrexham semi redouble fitting in,NR have been kind of devolved into Cardiff, but I agree Network Rail funded the new track Salop to Bersham,unfortunatly stopped in its trackswhen WG decided Bersham to Rossett was to be culled to save their money.
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Llandudno remains at present a terminal railway station for the ATW services from Manchester and quaint though the attractions of Llandudno Junction are, they do not offer attractions enough to compete.

Some of Manchesters have now been taken away from Llandudno Paul, I like the way you put "Terminal Railway" Llandudno is a nice station,alas dead on Sundays for winter, I agree,the Junction has less attractions,unless you count the WG building as an attraction,

 

[jones_bangor]

Do not forget that with the date of the next general election ever drawing nearer, the Government would not dare to proceed with such measures for reasons of fostering a backlash from the electorate. They may well be accused of being heartless, but they are not stupid.

Popularity is everything in politics.

Popularity is indeed everything.

However, if we were to face the ideological right wing "Austerity Max" then unprofitable rural rail lines will be right up there.

Not to be cynical, but cuts would be quick and early in the parliament to give the sands of time the opportunity to erase memories....

 

[Gareth Marston]

Popularity is indeed everything.

However, if we were to face the ideological right wing "Austerity Max" then unprofitable rural rail lines will be right up there.

Not to be cynical, but cuts would be quick and early in the parliament to give the sands of time the opportunity to erase memories....

UKIP will get just enough votes to have a handful of MP's and knock down any hopes of a Conservative majority, Labour will bounce back but nowhere near as much as they hope, the Lib Dems share of the votes will take a pasting but their quantity of MP's will still hold the balance of power and another coalition will beckon.....or Cameron will try a minority administration and have avoid doing anything controversial that the others could gang up and force a vote of no confidence on like a rail closure program.

 

[PHILIPE]

Very unfortunate if the line is to be closed for as long as seems to be the case. The schools may get used to using buses instead of trains - with serious revenue consequences for the railway.

1) Surely the compensation to ATW should be related to the costs / damages incurred offset by any savings generated i.e. loss of fares (if any), costs of buses, taxi for crew etc, verses savings on fuel, unit wear and tear / maintenance etc.

2) As an aside, how many traincrew are based at Pwllheli? I've often wondered how difficult / efficient it is to operate outposts such as these with only 1 or 2 trains based at a particular location. Similar to Mallaig, Fort William and Oban. If it is efficient to operate Pwllheli in mid Wales, why concentrate drivers at Carmarthen instead of outposts as Pembroke, Milford Haven and Fishguard?

There used to be 4 Traincrew based at Pwllheli but could have changed since my working interest. There are 2 Diagrams Mondays to Saturdays and one on a Sunday. One crew works the first out in the morning returning sometime during the day and relieved by the late turn crew who finish on the last train at night. All the Pembroke Dock, Milford Haven and Fishguards are worked to and from Carmarthen as passenger trains with a running time of approx hour.
Machynlleth to Pwllheli takes approaching two and a half hours.

 

[cymro inside]

there are 6 drivers and 6 guards at Pwllheli its a four day week so although there are only two turns you have spare turns and days off to contend with

 

[Baxenden Bank]

... but no lines are going to close in Wales.

On what basis do you make this rather bold statement?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Popularity is indeed everything.

However, if we were to face the ideological right wing "Austerity Max" then unprofitable rural rail lines will be right up there.

Not to be cynical, but cuts would be quick and early in the parliament to give the sands of time the opportunity to erase memories....

And perhaps those who support / like / believe in railways or merely earn their living from them, need to be prepared. Too late once the closure notices are published.

No-one knows what is being considered behind the scenes, you can be sure that a whole range of options to cut back further the public sector are being discussed. Some people with influence regard railway expenditure as a drain on the public purse - hence the think tank report referred to in an earlier post. What is 'extreme' today can become mainstream very quickly.

Just how many people (in the general population, not this forum) would actually care if the odd withered railway limb was closed? How many councils have already, or are now considering, cutting all their subsidised bus services? Unthinkable once, now far fewer people use buses and of those only a small number use the subsidised services, thus little outcry over their removal.

 

[merlodlliw]

On what basis do you make this rather bold statement?

Devolved Welsh Government,wont have any closures,No AM worth his/her salt would dare vote to shut down any lines in Wales, my opinion of course.
Any closure notices are now in the hands of Cardiff,no longer London.
Its more a possibility to cull Wagair or Gerald than close any lines.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nobody has really addressed the McNulty demand to reduce the railway's costs.
Within the current W&B franchise everything is stuck in aspic circa 2003.
In 2018 a whole new set of economic parameters will apply, whoever is in power in Westminster and Cardiff.
The government(s) are going to have to square a number of circles about cost/revenue/subsidy/development to arrive at what is affordable for the 2018-25 period.
I think the rural extremities have serious problems.
How many times can the Conwy Valley line be repaired before somebody queries the value of a 45mph line with no freight, which is disrupted for weeks at a time every year?
After improvements there is a parallel (faster) road along the whole route.
Similar questions for the Central Wales line and maybe others.

 

[Crossover]

Quick question about the temporary working arrangements at Harlech. Do trains arrive on one platform, draw forward into the single line section, turn around and come back into the other platform, so they are in the correct platform for departure, or can they work in/out of the same platform?

 

[Llanigraham]

Nobody has really addressed the McNulty demand to reduce the railway's costs.
Within the current W&B franchise everything is stuck in aspic circa 2003.
In 2018 a whole new set of economic parameters will apply, whoever is in power in Westminster and Cardiff.
The government(s) are going to have to square a number of circles about cost/revenue/subsidy/development to arrive at what is affordable for the 2018-25 period.
I think the rural extremities have serious problems.
How many times can the Conwy Valley line be repaired before somebody queries the value of a 45mph line with no freight, which is disrupted for weeks at a time every year?
After improvements there is a parallel (faster) road along the whole route.
Similar questions for the Central Wales line and maybe others.

Rubbish!
Do you realise how many of us signallers in Wales have faced or are facing redundancy in the next 5 years?
Or how many track and S&T staff are in the same boat.

Thankfully WAG have realised that encouraging rail useage in ALL areas of Wales has aided local communities, and often encouraged further development.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Quick question about the temporary working arrangements at Harlech. Do trains arrive on one platform, draw forward into the single line section, turn around and come back into the other platform, so they are in the correct platform for departure, or can they work in/out of the same platform?

Will that measure be put on hold whilst the the current state of the line sees Tywyn as the current temporary terminal point.

 

[OxtedL]

Quick question about the temporary working arrangements at Harlech. Do trains arrive on one platform, draw forward into the single line section, turn around and come back into the other platform, so they are in the correct platform for departure, or can they work in/out of the same platform?

As I understand it ERTMS as implemented on the Cambrian left basically everything bidirectional, so there should be no reason for them not to arrive and depart from the same platform. I doubt they'd shunt if they don't have to.

This image from here, which I think is of Harlech, shows some of the signalling boards (technical term?).

If that's wrong then I'm sure somewhere here can correct me.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes it is "bi-di", and they are termed "Marker Boards"