Not PC on LM

[PaxVobiscum]

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1741656&postcount=5

If she had an advance ticket for a train, and was kicked off that train before the start of said ticket and told to get on the train behind, she should refuse to pay anything, and should sue XC for any amount she has already paid.

Next time, she should not get off, and should consider nutting the conductor.

Oh dear - I do hope your employer hasn't seen these.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Section 5 Public Order? Racism? He said watch out for Gypsies. How is that racist? He did not saythat Gypsies are pickpockets (although I accept there was that inference) but I certainly believe that although the announcement was probably an ill judged attempt at humour, it was not a criminal act nor was it gross misconduct.

(Racially aggravated) section 5 or 4a, as I believe is common for offences committed towards other ethnicities (those which it is not socially acceptable to discriminate against, i.e. pretty much all of them except Gypsies or Travellers).

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1741656&postcount=5


Oh dear - I do hope your employer hasn't seen these.

A) If you scroll down you'll see that that was meant as a joke
B) It is okay to discriminate against people for lying / being wilfully wrong, as these are factors that said people are in control of. It is not okay to discriminate against people because of their ethnicity, as this is not an attribute that they are in control of. :roll:

 

[PaxVobiscum]

A) If you scroll down you'll see that that was meant as a joke
B) It is okay to discriminate against people for lying / being wilfully wrong, as these are factors that said people are in control of. It is not okay to discriminate against people because of their ethnicity, as this is not an attribute that they are in control of. :roll:

Ah, it was a joke (albeit advocating a criminal assault).

That's OK then.

 

[Qwerty133]

Yes it's tasteless but I find this no worse than a number of incorrect announcements I've heard recently, and unlike said announcements it has not affected anyone's journey.

 

[185]

Every day I face a barrage of racially motivated abuse. It just doesn't stop.

Well, it's mostly from my partner, who needless to say is a non EU national. :P

 

[oversteer]

I don't think it was a random comment. Both Chiltern and LM are among operators having problems lately with people going on their trains and going from carriage to carriage selling tissues.

Some would describe these people as "gypsies" which obviously isn't an appropriate term for this day and age.

I guess this is really what the announcer was warning of, but unfortunately has picked an inappropriate way to do it.

 

[185]

I know precisely what the guard meant with the announcement. Poor old Telford

Similar thing happened at Liverpool in around 2001 at Liverpool Lime Street with an Arriva TN York guard announcing please ensure your luggage is chained to a family member... etc. He was in a spot of bother from both management, and his entire train as they were stepping off

 

[Altnabreac]

Ah, it was a joke (albeit advocating a criminal assault).

That's OK then.

Worth reading the CPS Guideline on this matter:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/consultations/social_media_consultation.pdf

Legally it's fine to threaten someone with assault as part of a joke as Fahad's comment was clearly not a credible threat under 12.1. It is unlikely to constitute harrasment under 12.2 and we'll assume there's no court order for 12.3. That leaves a high threshold test for it being "grossly offensive" under 12.4 again unlikely here.

So not criminal. However under employment law it would probably be inappropriate to make jokey assault threats as part of your working life (say in an announcement). However a social media environment where you do not identify your employer is unlikely to form sufficient evidence for disciplinary action.

As for the announcement itself it is clearly offensive by linking a racial group to a specific crime. Again worth looking at the CPS guidance:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rrpbcrbook.html#a03
A racially motivated incident is:
"... any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."

Racial group – this means any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin. This could include Gypsies and Travellers, refugees, or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of racial group.

In this case the comments do not pass the threshold for incitement to racial hatred but are certainly racially motivated in the current CPS definition and I agree a Section 5 Public order offence could theoretically be pursued.

 

[Starmill]

Sort of thing that's best left unsaid when one is given responsibility for a PA... Any fool can see that. Wonder what might have happened if a passenger identified in the group the guard was poking at? Of course if a passenger makes racist jokes about a member of staff they're likely to be taken away by BTP...

 

[ECML180]

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

A) If you scroll down you'll see that that was meant as a joke

An ill-judged joke? Quick, fire that man and ensure he never works with people again!

 

[LateThanNever]

Every day I face a barrage of racially motivated abuse. It just doesn't stop.

Well, it's mostly from my partner, who needless to say is a non EU national. :P

Quite - think we should all be a little less precious.
And what about Jews telling jokes against themselves which are stereotype based - and Frogs and Dagos. Blimey, I live with one of them and best friend is another and of course they don't know what I'm talking about unless I refer to the French or Italians....

 

[SPADTrap]

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

Whatever you been smoking ... Stop it, it's muddling your brain!

 

[cuccir]

Quite - think we should all be a little less precious.
And what about Jews telling jokes against themselves which are stereotype based - and Frogs and Dagos. Blimey, I live with one of them and best friend is another and of course they don't know what I'm talking about unless I refer to the French or Italians....

What about it? Do you understand how communication/humour work? Jokes made by people with shared cultural backgrounds, or by people within a group are very difficult than jokes made by people at others, particularly if based upon stereotypes. I don't think that's a difficult concept to grasp.

Fahad's previous comments were also stupid. It's depressing when people respond to thoughtless comments by being equally thoughtless.

 

[scotsman]

I'll go out on a limb and say that actually I don't think there is a problem here.

Oh really?

It wasn't aimed at an individual person (and it's unlikely that he was aiming the comment at any passing travelling people), so IMO isn't grossly offensive because there is no malice in what was said.

Doesn't really matter, though. If he was warning people about Muslims, even though he wasn't aiming it at any particular Muslim/any other passenger, would it be acceptable? No it would not, and I fail to see why it's acceptable to slander travelers still now.

It's no different to when conductors of a certain national identity on a certain cross-border franchise mention "We are back in England now" followed by a certain remark about rugby / prescription charges / plastic bag taxes.

Oh, do tell. I genuinely have no idea what TOC this is, even though there's only three to guess from (also, Scotland doesn't do bag charges).

 

[Zoidberg]

This 'news' is two days old.

What posters here seem unaware of are the problems caused in the area over recent months by gypsies thinking that they can set up camp wherever they like. That being in industrial estates in the area, seriously impacting the ability of the legitimate tenants of those industrial estates to conduct business.,

Instead of penalising the gypsies, the local authority has agreed to expedite setting up a site for a gypsy encampment. Rather it should have shelved plans to do so and shown itself to be not intimidated by the anti-social activities of this group of people.

Oh, want to hear the announcement - click on http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-telford-gipsies-and-pickpockets-announcment/

 

[fowler9]

Am removing myself from this thread.

 

[Zoidberg]

Every area has its own unique problems. Should the guard have mentioned it in an announcement? No. I'm trying to imagine what would happen to me in work if I answered the phone and said "Oh you aren't one of them are you, wink wink, only kidding".

Oh, I'm not criticising the guard at all - I thought it a light-hearted announcement. I'd have smiled had I heard it.

 

[GatwickDepress]

As for people leaving tissues on seats and asking for money, "scam artists" or "confidence tricksters" would be preferable to raise awareness rather than accusing gypsies, the majority of whom are law-abiding citizens - like any other group of people in the UK.

Poverty and lack of education is quite high, and crime does correlate to that...

But that's off-topic.. Ultimately, the guard should not have made that announcement.

 

[Zoidberg]

... gypsies, the majority of whom are law-abiding ...

I really did LOL

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Under FNW i heard a remark welcome to Bolton the home... of the Reebok Stadium Sorry no actually thats not for a few stops (heading west). Also heard welcome to Manchester European Capital of Trophies under Northern Once... assume it was same guard...

 

[Gemz91]

This 'news' is two days old.

What posters here seem unaware of are the problems caused in the area over recent months by gypsies thinking that they can set up camp wherever they like. That being in industrial estates in the area, seriously impacting the ability of the legitimate tenants of those industrial estates to conduct business.,

Instead of penalising the gypsies, the local authority has agreed to expedite setting up a site for a gypsy encampment. Rather it should have shelved plans to do so and shown itself to be not intimidated by the anti-social activities of this group of people.

Oh, want to hear the announcement - click on http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-telford-gipsies-and-pickpockets-announcment/

If you think the issue of gypsies is unique to Telford, you are wrong. The city i grew up in has had issues with gypsies since the 80's, and is still on going. How ever, discussing such an issue on a public forums is a legal minefield, and i would not want to wish that upon this site

Still I would never expect such an announcement to be made in a public area. I dread to think what the reaction would have been if there had been a group of gypsies travelling on board the train and how they would have felt.

 

[andythebrave]

If the words used were "beware of" then I see the case for a reprimand but if, as stated in the OP, the words used were "be aware of" then there is no case to answer.

The first is a warning and the second is advice that whatever follows is there and cannot be taken as defaming any individual or group simply because there is no warning or negative qualifier present.

For example - Beware, the signal is red - Be aware that there is a signal after the next curve.

 

[soil]

If the words used were "beware of" then I see the case for a reprimand but if, as stated in the OP, the words used were "be aware of" then there is no case to answer.

The first is a warning and the second is advice that whatever follows is there and cannot be taken as defaming any individual or group simply because there is no warning or negative qualifier present.

For example - Beware, the signal is red - Be aware that there is a signal after the next curve.

Eh?

You need to be aware of the signal because you might have to stop. It is a warning.

You do not need to be aware that there is grass in the field on the right of the track, or that the station sign in painted blue.

You would only say 'be aware' if it is a potential hazard.

Clearly passengers should 'be aware' of pickpockets. But suffixing that with 'and gypsies' is stupid, because you can guarantee that the announcer does not even know that the people he is warning about are in fact gypsies, he's just stereotyping. Does he mean Irish travellers? Does he mean Romanians? Does he actually mean some other group of Eastern Europeans who he assumes are gypsies, but aren't? Who really knows.

It's not clear what the distinction he is making is anyway. 'Be aware of pickpockets' - they might rob you. But presumably he is intending to say the same thing about gypsies, that they might rob you, so it's basically the same warning twice.

At least if you warned about 'black pickpockets' or 'female pickpockets', then that would help people with narrowing down the suspects (assuming in fact that there were known to be pickpockets in the area of that description).

 

[GatwickDepress]

I really did LOL

58,000 identify as Gypsy or Irish Travellers at the last census. I doubt every one of have committed a crime.

I know a few personally and they have fairly steady, if low paying and menial jobs. None of them have committed any crimes.

Your prejudice is quite disturbing...

 

[soil]

This 'news' is two days old.

What posters here seem unaware of are the problems caused in the area over recent months by gypsies thinking that they can set up camp wherever they like. That being in industrial estates in the area, seriously impacting the ability of the legitimate tenants of those industrial estates to conduct business.,

Hmm, really?

Seems to me that there have been gypsies in the UK for hundreds of years. Certainly longer than we have had industrial estates.

The fact that common land was seized (over the last few centuries) and made into private property essentially giving them nowhere to live is pretty relevant to this.

Instead of penalising the gypsies, the local authority has agreed to expedite setting up a site for a gypsy encampment. Rather it should have shelved plans to do so and shown itself to be not intimidated by the anti-social activities of this group of people.

The number of gypsies and travellers is relatively small in the UK and local authorities have a legal responsibility to provide them with sites, one which in Shropshire they haven't met.

Illegal encampments are, well, illegal, but it's no different to any other kind of trespass - it's not criminal, so no punishment is legally possible.

 

[andythebrave]

Eh?

You need to be aware of the signal because you might have to stop. It is a warning.

You do not need to be aware that there is grass in the field on the right of the track, or that the station sign in painted blue.

You would only say 'be aware' if it is a potential hazard.

Clearly passengers should 'be aware' of pickpockets.

But that is not the case. Beware in reference to a signal is only relevant if it is either possibly or definitely red (the last one was yellow), in other words a warning. Be aware is not a warning it is one of the phrases that can be used to introduce information that is likely to be of interest. There is a clear distinction between the two and their meanings are entirely different.

Be aware that if you sit on the left hand side you can get a great view of the Mersey towards Liverpool - information and not a hazard warning.

Beware Dog - hazard warning.

Swapping one for the other would completely change the meaning and, in the first instance, to one that would be pretty silly.

 

[neodoughnut]

Well the thing is that if his employer is investigating it is highly likely that he will be charged will a clause 9 for gross misconduct and sacked, which I'm sure would please a lot of the people on here.

 

[cambsy]

Just seen the video of announcement on train, and I think it a breath of fresh air, that someone is not afraid to have bit of joke and banter on a train full of football supporters.

It lightened the atmosphere, it was said in jest and cheekily, and not meant in any nasty way, so don't see the harm in what he said, if someone took offence then they need to lighten up and get a sense of humour, he was not being personal

I would just have light word with him about being careful what you say, as could be misinterpreted.

 

[Johnuk123]

gypsies, the majority of whom are law-abiding citizens

I've read some amusing things on here but that is probably the best yet.

 

[Roverman]

How did the 'witness' know to record it? It takes seconds to unlock phone, open recording app and press record surely he'd have missed it?

The more you look at this the more you wonder if its a spoof.