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Decriminalise ticket offences?

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PaxVobiscum

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I wonder how many prosecutions for rail fare evasion there are per annum in Scotland, which has I understand has no penalty fares? Not trying to make a particular point, just wondering what difference, if any, that makes.
 
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Flamingo

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Then vastly increase the penalties to compensate. Instead of "£25 or twice the standard fare, whichever is the greater", make that "£100 or ten times the standard fare". For example, potential fare evaders going from London to Reading might think twice if the price is a £200 civil debt rather than just £40!

Yea, but as there is no RPI's on that route to catch them...
 

CNash

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Yea, but as there is no RPI's on that route to catch them...

It was just an example; I plucked a likely route out of thin air and looked up a standard fare for it. :)

(Incidentally, why are there no RPIs on this route? Does FGW have them camped out somewhere else, like Southeastern and its staff at Dartford and Greenhithe?)
 

Yew

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But, if the penalty fare legislation was changed to combat intentional fare evasion.

a) would it have a fair and robust appeals process implemented
b) would it still be used to punish 'honest mistakes'
 

Flamingo

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(Incidentally, why are there no RPIs on this route? Does FGW have them camped out somewhere else, like Southeastern and its staff at Dartford and Greenhithe?)

I have my own theory, but all I'll say is that in nearly ten years I have never seen an RPI on a train between London & Reading. I don't know where they are.
 

WelshBluebird

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Then vastly increase the penalties to compensate. Instead of "£25 or twice the standard fare, whichever is the greater", make that "£100 or ten times the standard fare". For example, potential fare evaders going from London to Reading might think twice if the price is a £200 civil debt rather than just £40!

The thing is penalty fares are supposed to be used for genuine mistakes and not for cases where fare evasion is suspected. And I think asking someone to pay more for a genuine mistake isn't really that fair, when it is the actual fare evaders that should be caught.
 

Tetchytyke

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For example, potential fare evaders going from London to Reading might think twice if the price is a £200 civil debt rather than just £40!

But Penalty Fares are not designed for cases where ticketing fraud is suspected. Penalty Fares are there for cases where someone gets on a train having (genuinely) forgotten their railcard, or where they get off a train with an Advance ticket a station too soon. Ticketing fraud cases should be dealt with through the prosecution department.

I don't think Penalty Fares should be higher. They certainly shouldn't be higher without putting a Rail Ombudsman in place, and making guidance on ticket queue lengths, etc, binding.
 

jon0844

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I agree with previous posters that the criminal offences should remain as they are an invaluable deterrent - just look at all the posters in the 'prosecutions' thread for whom it will destroy their job prospects. Otherwise for many people the fine would be nothing more than a trade-off for the money they have saved by not buying tickets on X amount of journeys.

Sadly you can see that the outcome is more often than not the TOC deciding to offer a 'way out' with a settlement fee that does away with the main deterrent factor, the criminal record.

Perhaps it still deters people from doing it again, on the basis that the TOC won't be so lenient the next time - but will it be tougher second time around, or do the same? I ask because it currently seems that some operators are less worried about the deterrent, and more on the profit of keeping the courts out of it.

Most posts on here seem to be from people who are terrified of the criminal record aspect, which does make you wonder why they did it in the first place, but when they come back to say they got a settlement and are really happy, is that a good thing?
 

LateThanNever

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Before the enactment of the Regulation of Railways Act many fare evasion matters were dealt with in the Criminal Courts as a Fraud, but these were not without difficulty and sentences could be extremely severe.
Railway Companies employed private detectives to observe suspects at various points on their journeys, and other complex techniques, before intercepting the passenger for an interview. To illustrate the sentences imposed, we can look at the 1851 case of Williams and Brown who told the inspector of the London & North Western Railway Co that they'd travelled to London from Wiliden (fare 6d) after travelling from Birmingham (fare 9s 4 1/2d). They were imprisoned for 6 and 3 months respectively. It required the consolidated evidence of several witnesses presented and cross-examined in Court.

The Fraud Act was a blunt instrument in fare evasion, we could consider the 1862 case of Simon Graham and Thomas Waugh who offered a special cheap ticket to a passenger who was about to pay more than 3 times as much at the ticket office (as today, the ticket was 'not transferrable'). We can imagine from the way in which the pair operated and the way in which the detectives recorded their conversations, that they were regular ticket resellers. The three were arrested by police and interviewed and subsequently tried for Fraud at the Old Bailey. However, the details provided were not enough to secure a prosecution under the Fraud Act and they were all aquitted. This was despite the oral evidence of several witnesses presented and cross-examined in Court.
The ticket touts were presumably able to resume their operation the next day.

When the RRA and the preceeding Railway Clauses Consolidation Act were enacted, it became possible to provide evidence of willful fare evasion based on specific circumstances to rail travel. Subsequently, many straightforward fare evasion prosecutions became simpler to secure. I wouldn't want to see a return to the general requirements to have to demonstrate a Fraud. However there is still much that the industry could do to improve the availability of tickets to all passengers before travel and I believe that better retailling deserves a higher priority than any relaxation of statutes.

We shouldn't forget that this forum often provides a biased slant on the matter of ticket irregularities - the interest some forum members shiw in arcane routings and restrictions (and the consequential potential for a dispute between staff and passenger) might draw our attention away from the serious and sometimes large scale and organised crime that takes place every day across the rail network - to detect, capture and prosecute these willful crimes, we need clear, appropriate and effective legislation. The persistent fare evader who might claim that rail travel is free (or who pays only if challenged) falls somewhere between theses extremes, and it is in the detection and prosecution of those opportunist passengers that the industry benefits from the specific railway legislation of the RRA, RCCA and Byelaws.

I have reservations over the Byelaws, however. While I am content that they exist in the broad sense, and they offer useful tools in ensuring the safe operation of the railways, I am concerned that they provide such a wide window of opportunity for the careless but harmless person to be prosecuted in some of the more trivial cases.

When we consider the opportunities for reform, I wonder if you read my piece, to be found right at the top of this forum's Rail Fares and Ticket Guide, that begins by stating that in 2012 the government swept away hundreds of obsolete or innapropriate railway statutes in their "Red Tape Challenge" initiative. I think it is unrealistic to expect this or any other government to revisit the sector anytime soon.

Intrigued at the case law quoted here. It is so ancient that it would be most surprising if it were still entirely fit for purpose. Transportation didn't end till the 1860s and there wasn't a proper police force till the 1850s at earliest. I'll surmise that in the 1880s every station had a staffed ticket office too. It was hardly the age of restorative justice or the self scanning checkout!
Hence not at all surprised that many people fancy their chances of avoiding obscure railway charges when railway law has in fact been surrepticiously updated since - by everyone but Parliament. And the fact that a ticket office can sell the passenger an incorrect ticket without the passenger's knowledge yet the passenger becomes liable for the 'offence' of using it for the journey is clearly against natural justice.

Also not sure there is evidence of organised crime across the rail network as regards fares. But if there is then, firstly why are the railways special? - Tesco, Britain's biggest PLC employer reportedly loses many millions to shoplifting but it's still theft, not some fancy strict liability special offence. Second, the private railway companies have every incentive to stop fare evasion - or are prosecution departments cheaper to run than proper fare collection in the first place? I think there is a strong argument that better retailing could well be precipitated by a relaxation of specific statutes! Railways would be covered by theft, which is much better understood by the public and everyone knows is a criminal offence requiring intent. The fact that it is not used may even help to make the railway's fare collection seem more unfair than necessary!
 

TEW

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Fare evasion does not fit in to the legal definition of theft under the Theft Act 1968. Theft requires the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with intention to permanently deprive the other of the property. With fare evasion there is no appropriation of property. Fare evasion does better fit in to the definition of fraud under the Fraud Act 2006 which requires the dishonest making of a false representation with the intent to make a gain or cause another a loss. Even that's not perfect though, and the specific offences better fit the offences, but also carry less severe punishments than either fraud or theft do.
 

Stigy

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It depends on what we mean by "ticketing offences" and what we mean by "decriminalisation".

The Byelaws need to be scrapped. Many of the individual Byelaws are unfit for purpose (e.g. it being an offence to "molest the comfort [of a passenger]"). The TOCs are abusing the Byelaws to inflict significant civil penalties on passengers who make innocent mistakes. And that's not before we consider the likes of Merseyrail prosecuting passengers for putting a foot on a seat (ah, good old Serco).

The likes of Northern and East Midlands Trains are particularly bad examples of TOCs abusing the badly-drafted Byelaws to secure huge amounts of money from passengers. It should not be a criminal matter when someone gets on a train after walking past a ticket office (especially as some TOCs say you can do it). Northern's actions, in particular, are profiteering, pure and simple. I'd compare Northern's behaviour with their "penalty fare" scheme to be exactly the same morally as the cowboy car clamping firms using fear to fleece old ladies.

Abolishing RoRA, though? I'm not sure I agree. The laws there are more fit for purpose, and deal with ticketing offences rather than strict liability. There should be criminal repercussions for people who steal from TOCs, just as there is for any other commercial organisation. The theft and fraud offences might cover some of these, but certainly not all of them.
Byelaws other than ticketing ones are not used to the extent that they're miss-used in most cases. In other words, they're only used a minimum amount of time anyway, and when they are they seem to be used well.

Relating to Byelaw 18 to name one ticketing byelaw, what's the big issue? It's an offence to board a train for the purpose of travelling without first buying a ticket, as long as there were places to buy one etc...Why the uproar? It's common sense, surely? You wouldn't do this on a bus, would you (Obviously you'd have the same argument as trains inside London)? Yes they're criminal matters, but so what?

I think the issue most people have with Byelaws is that they're Strict Liability offences (rather than the fact of them being criminal), meaning the offender either did it, or did not do it, with a very limited burden of proof required. There's obviously only the three statutory defences to a Byelaw 18, outlined in Byelaw 18(3), too.

If the issue is with Strict Liability, then speeding offences need to be axed too, right?
 
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tony_mac

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It's an offence to board a train for the purpose of travelling without first buying a ticket, as long as there were places to buy one etc...Why the uproar? It's common sense, surely?
As we often see, there are many grey areas. Some have been pointed out countless times, so there is little point repeating them to those that are determined to believe that everything must be black or white.

If the issue is with Strict Liability, then speeding offences need to be axed too, right?

Maybe we could start with offences that are only to do with revenue, rather than safety. Perhaps parking offences are a more appropriate comparison.
Oh, wait......
 

Stigy

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As we often see, there are many grey areas. Some have been pointed out countless times, so there is little point repeating them to those that are determined to believe that everything must be black or white.
There's grey areas in everything, there's nothing that's going to change that.


Maybe we could start with offences that are only to do with revenue, rather than safety. Perhaps parking offences are a more appropriate comparison.
Oh, wait......
Why? thousands of offences on the railway are revenue related so why quash these Byelaws? *puts on tin hat*
 

Flamingo

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I think the issue that most people have with Bylaw 18 is along the lines of "But I have a good excuse for not buying a ticket, what do you mean I'm a criminal".

Personally, I am of the opinion the fault with the ticketing bylaws is that they are not used enough.
 

LateThanNever

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It depends on what we mean by "ticketing offences" and what we mean by "decriminalisation".

The Byelaws need to be scrapped. Many of the individual Byelaws are unfit for purpose (e.g. it being an offence to "molest the comfort [of a passenger]"). The TOCs are abusing the Byelaws to inflict significant civil penalties on passengers who make innocent mistakes. And that's not before we consider the likes of Merseyrail prosecuting passengers for putting a foot on a seat (ah, good old Serco).

The likes of Northern and East Midlands Trains are particularly bad examples of TOCs abusing the badly-drafted Byelaws to secure huge amounts of money from passengers. It should not be a criminal matter when someone gets on a train after walking past a ticket office (especially as some TOCs say you can do it). Northern's actions, in particular, are profiteering, pure and simple. I'd compare Northern's behaviour with their "penalty fare" scheme to be exactly the same morally as the cowboy car clamping firms using fear to fleece old ladies.

Abolishing RoRA, though? I'm not sure I agree. The laws there are more fit for purpose, and deal with ticketing offences rather than strict liability. There should be criminal repercussions for people who steal from TOCs, just as there is for any other commercial organisation. The theft and fraud offences might cover some of these, but certainly not all of them.

Broadly agree, although cannot understand why the railway should be different from others - theft covers it easily without resort to fraud!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Byelaws other than ticketing ones are not used to the extent that they're miss-used in most cases. In other words, they're only used a minimum amount of time anyway, and when they are they seem to be used well.

Relating to Byelaw 18 to name one ticketing byelaw, what's the big issue? It's an offence to board a train for the purpose of travelling without first buying a ticket, as long as there were places to buy one etc...Why the uproar? It's common sense, surely? You wouldn't do this on a bus, would you (Obviously you'd have the same argument as trains inside London)? Yes they're criminal matters, but so what?

I think the issue most people have with Byelaws is that they're Strict Liability offences (rather than the fact of them being criminal), meaning the offender either did it, or did not do it, with a very limited burden of proof required. There's obviously only the three statutory defences to a Byelaw 18, outlined in Byelaw 18(3), too.

If the issue is with Strict Liability, then speeding offences need to be axed too, right?
But there the Police are in charge and that is the difference...
 

reb0118

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.........theft covers it easily without resort to fraud!

Can you explain what property has been permanently deprived from the railway?

"It was only my intention, your honour, to borrow the seat for the length of my journey - I had no intention to permanently deprive the railway of it."
 

LateThanNever

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Fare evasion does not fit in to the legal definition of theft under the Theft Act 1968. Theft requires the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with intention to permanently deprive the other of the property. With fare evasion there is no appropriation of property. Fare evasion does better fit in to the definition of fraud under the Fraud Act 2006 which requires the dishonest making of a false representation with the intent to make a gain or cause another a loss. Even that's not perfect though, and the specific offences better fit the offences, but also carry less severe punishments than either fraud or theft do.

Sorry, 'Pecuniary Advantage by Deception' is in the Theft Act and will do nicely!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can you explain what property has been permanently deprived from the railway?

"It was only my intention, your honour, to borrow the seat for the length of my journey - I had no intention to permanently deprive the railway of it."

Same difference!

Mind you - for our Scottish Bretheren, as transport Law and Employment Law are the only common (with small c!) laws it will be interesting if they choose to go independent to see how 'common' the fares are!
 
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Stigy

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But there the Police are in charge and that is the difference...
No, there the CPS are in charge, and don't get me started on them! They just dish out cautions like sweets. It matters not who's 'in charge' as the law still has to be adhered to by the prosecuting body and ALL prosecutions need to be in the public interest.
 

TEW

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Sorry, 'Pecuniary Advantage by Deception' is in the Theft Act and will do nicely!
Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception is not theft, it was a fraud offence, and in any case has been repealed by the Fraud Act 2006. Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception is very similar to the current offence of Fraud anyway.
 

LateThanNever

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Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception is not theft, it was a fraud offence, and in any case has been repealed by the Fraud Act 2006. Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception is very similar to the current offence of Fraud anyway.
If it's been repealed as Theft then I'm out of date - it used to be Theft and if it isn't then what are the equivalent offences caught by??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, there the CPS are in charge, and don't get me started on them! They just dish out cautions like sweets. It matters not who's 'in charge' as the law still has to be adhered to by the prosecuting body and ALL prosecutions need to be in the public interest.

I broadly agree but having been personally chucked up against the wall by the Police, they are generally practical so if the cops give some rope then it is the CPS who decides. But if you have a bit of give and take then in my - I realise fortunate experience - then so will the Police.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Fraud continues to be used to prosecute passengers who practice deliberate deceptions with rail travel. Not Theft.

. . .

Mind you - for our Scottish Bretheren, as transport Law and Employment Law are the only common (with small c!) laws it will be interesting if they choose to go independent to see how 'common' the fares are!
There is very little in common between the two nations in terms of railway ticketing offences, now or in the recent past. They couldn't be more different. Have you seen a railway ticketing case in the Sheriff Court or either of the Court of Sessions? I haven't. (Seems to me that they're far too busy with rape, wind farms and medical negligence; which tells me something about the Judiciary's priorities).
 

WelshBluebird

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Relating to Byelaw 18 to name one ticketing byelaw, what's the big issue? It's an offence to board a train for the purpose of travelling without first buying a ticket, as long as there were places to buy one etc...Why the uproar? It's common sense, surely? You wouldn't do this on a bus, would you (Obviously you'd have the same argument as trains inside London)? Yes they're criminal matters, but so what?

Well part of it is simply different parts the country work in different ways.

Large parts of wales and the north have many stations that lack ticketing facilities, so it is common for the guard to simply sell tickets on board the train. For someone who is used to that and has only known that for their whole lives, it can be quite jarring suddenly moving somewhere else and then having to buy before you board.

Then of course you have the fact that even in places where there are ticketing facilities, some ToC's will let you buy on board.
 

TEW

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If it's been repealed as Theft then I'm out of date - it used to be Theft and if it isn't then what are the equivalent offences caught by??
It isn't Theft. It was in the Theft Act 1968, in the part entitled Fraud and Blackmail. There is only one offence of Theft, as defined by s1 Theft Act 1968. Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception required obtaining a pecuniary advantage for oneself by a dishonest deception. The offence was repealed, along with a number of others by the Fraud Act 2006. They were all fraud offences and have been replaced by the new offences of Fraud under the Fraud Act 2006. s2 Fraud Act 2006, fraud by false representation requires the dishonest making of a false representation in order to make a gain or to cause another a loss. As you can see this is very similar to, and would cover, the old offence of obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception.
 

Tetchytyke

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It's an offence to board a train for the purpose of travelling without first buying a ticket, as long as there were places to buy one etc...Why the uproar? It's common sense, surely?

If I get on a train from Halifax to Bradford hoping to buy on board, I commit a criminal offence if it is painted purple and I don't if it is painted black and orange.

If you could explain how that is "common sense", I'd be very grateful.

Penalty Fares and the restriction of discounted ticket sales cover people who pay when challenged. RoRA covers people who try and short-fare or doughnut.

The Byelaws are simply being abused by TOCs (yes, you, Northern) who don't want the faff of having to abide by DafT guidance on Penalty Fare scheme rules.
 
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Flamingo

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Alternatively, Northern have removed the "Think of a number and double it" approach to out-of-court settlements, introducing consistency of approach. If anybody thinks it's unfair and they have a valid defence, they can argue their case in front of a totally impartial magistrate.
 

TEW

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It's all well and good saying that in effect your appeal route is by taking your case to court, but that's a highly risky idea. It must be tempting to just pay the fixed penalty notice to Northern rather than risk going to court where the potential punishments are much greater, even if you think you're not guilty. Flawed as the Penalty Fares appeal process may be, at least it doesn't carry such great risks to the person appealing.
 

Flamingo

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In other words, "I'm probably in the wrong, but I'll chance an appeal anyway, it won't cost me anything".

How many people posting here having been caught by Northern have actually been in the right (as opposed to just thinking they are)?

How many of them had an appeal to Norther customer services which resulted in the £80 being quashed?
 

jon0844

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It seems that most Northern prosecutions, settled out of court to give Northern more money, would be better off going to court. They seem like open and shut cases, and taking a nice easy £80 + the fare is not the same level of deterrent.

On the flip side, when FCC started to train up more staff to be able to skip the PF option and go for a Byelaw 18 charge, and then potentially asking for a three figure settlement, I think things went a little too far.

We simply need to up the Penalty Fare to a decent level to actually serve its purpose. Going from £10 to £20 wasn't enough. It should be at least £40, in line with TfL (the price you pay unless you leave it, when it goes up to £80).
 

Tibbs

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In other words, "I'm probably in the wrong, but I'll chance an appeal anyway, it won't cost me anything".

How many people posting here having been caught by Northern have actually been in the right (as opposed to just thinking they are)?

How many of them had an appeal to Norther customer services which resulted in the £80 being quashed?


Appealing to the company that profits from the £80. What could possibly go wrong? :lol:
 
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