Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Wavertreelad]

It's all commercial posturing. No doubt Angel wants to have someone lease their trains and decided this is more likely if they are refurbished. The Minister can hardly not welcome the refurbishment, but no deal will be done unless the price is right. That isn't just the lease costs but also associated costs such as staff training, spares and depot facilities, which will be higher if the fleet includes two types of unit.

"Soggy Lease" sounds somehow appropriate for the "soggy mess" this seems to be turning into.

Couldn't agree more but on the 28th November 2013, going by date of the Angel press release there seems to have been some sort of plan, although perhaps no agreement.

It just seems so strange that Angel can agree with Abellio Greater Anglia to take the test train, but fails with or without the help of the DFT to get Northern which is 50/50 joint venture of Abellio and Serco even allowing for the extra's you quite correctly mention.

It must be costing Angel a small fortune to keep these units in storage, especially as their value surely will have been completely written down to next to nothing. Surely it to be cheaper to give the units a quickie cosmetic wash and brush up and gain some revenue, with perhaps some sort of maintenance contract etc to cover the new interim franchise term at least. If the DFT is not already leaning on Angel, it should be if only to save itself from some tough and embarrassing question should this get out into in the wider public press.

 

[WatcherZero]

I would imagine the test unit is being practically given away, they want their rolling advertising board to be seen.

That said I thought I read Angel were holding out for another toc taking them, an airport service or Reading if Crossrail wasnt extended, something like that.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not the brightest move by the DafT making the effort to issue a press release for only TWO cascaded units when normally they wouldn't for this number.

Having read the press release a few times, it certainly does emphasise the first two, but it is definitely referring to at least 12 altogether when read as a whole. In fact the 12 trains is covered by two adjacent sentences - I feel too much emphasis is being placed on the two initial units. Maybe it would read better with a slight amendment:

Two 4-carriage electric trains will start running between Liverpool and Manchester via Newton le Willows from December 2014, providing quicker, cleaner and more reliable journeys for passengers; and by the end of 2015 an additional 40 carriages will be in service, providing up to 3,000 extra seats during the busiest times of travel.

TPE didn't seem to get as much hassle for introducing one EMU last December, the slow in service build up has been explained as partly due to staff training - and surely this would be the case for Northern as well, even if 12 units were to be delivered to them on the same day...

 

[WatcherZero]

Havent Northern said they are already behind where they should be on the cycle of training staff because the Dft refused to approve their depot hires?

 

[deltic08]

Having read the press release a few times, it certainly does emphasise the first two, but it is definitely referring to at least 12 altogether when read as a whole. In fact the 12 trains is covered by two adjacent sentences - I feel too much emphasis is being placed on the two initial units. Maybe it would read better with a slight amendment:



It was vague and ambiguous on purpose to confuse and divide. 40 carriages sounds better to Joe Public than 10 trains. 12 trains "by the end of 2015" will not help shortages on Northern now. No mention of promised refurb so it isn't happening but we guessed that being Northerners.

 

[davetheguard]

Having read the press release a few times, it certainly does emphasise the first two, but it is definitely referring to at least 12 altogether when read as a whole. In fact the 12 trains is covered by two adjacent sentences - I feel too much emphasis is being placed on the two initial units. Maybe it would read better with a slight amendment:



TPE didn't seem to get as much hassle for introducing one EMU last December, the slow in service build up has been explained as partly due to staff training - and surely this would be the case for Northern as well, even if 12 units were to be delivered to them on the same day...

TPE shouldn't get the blame for the late start of the full electric Manchester to Scotland service, any more than Northern should for the late arrival of the cascaded (and unrefurbished) EMU's for the Liverpool to Manchester route.

In both cases, the fault is completely and utterly that of the DfT. They didn't make the decision to allow the order for TPE's new EMU's until it was impossible to deliver them on time; and they didn't authorise FCC to release the 319's in a timely manner either. Indeed, some people would allege that the DfT are serially incompetent.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE shouldn't get the blame for the late start of the full electric Manchester to Scotland service, any more than Northern should for the late arrival of the cascaded (and unrefurbished) EMU's for the Liverpool to Manchester route.

In both cases, the fault is completely and utterly that of the DfT. They didn't make the decision to allow the order for TPE's new EMU's until it was impossible to deliver them on time; and they didn't authorise FCC to release the 319's in a timely manner either. Indeed, some people would allege that the DfT are serially incompetent.

TPE were only expected to route some off-peak Scottish services via Wigan until Northern were able to boost capacity on their services via Bolton through freeing up DMUs from Chat Moss. As it is TPE can't delay the North TPE enhancements any further now they've got the 350/4s as overcrowding has got worse so they're routing all Scottish services via Wigan from May 2014 despite Northern not being in a position to improve Bolton services by then. And Northern didn't have much power to do anything, until a couple of weeks ago their franchise ended before May 2014 and DfT hadn't authorised them to secure extra stock for improvements beyond April 1st 2014.

 

[L+Y]

Just a quick update that I didn't see mentioned here. I travelled from Wavertree to Manchester last week, and the third track is now down and partially ballasted all the way from "Roby Junction" (or whatever it'll be called) to a point just short of Huyton, passing through the platforms at Roby.

Presumably the junction itself is to be installed in the June/July closure I've seen mentioned here?

Also, regarding this closure: will we see Blackpool-Liverpool trains diverted to Ormskirk again?

 

[snowball]

Given that a section of the fourth track can't be installed for another 2, 3 or 3.5 years, presumably there'll be an interim configuration of points and signals. Is there any information on what that will be?

 

[The Planner]

4th track is planned to be in for the Dec 16 timetable, though it may be slightly earlier. Interim phase is a third track between Huyton and just after Roby. There will be two down lines, the current one being the fast and a slow which is basically the current up track. The up is on a new alignment. Huyton Jn gets a bit of a remodel, trains from St Helens will use the down slow or can turnback in the new up platform. Fasts will be 90, the short slow line will be 70, crossovers and junction from St Helens 45.

 

[OxtedL]

Given that a section of the fourth track can't be installed for another 2, 3 or 3.5 years, presumably there'll be an interim configuration of points and signals. Is there any information on what that will be?

Yonks ago we had a discussion about this on this very thread.

The first link in the quote you quoted way back then is the one you want, and matches what The Planner has just said I think.

Check these links if they have not been posted before:
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...Roby and Huyton stations expansion enc. 1.pdf
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...te for Roby and Huyton stations expansion.pdf

Those links talk about adding a third track as part of the electrification, and then a fourth track later as part of the Northern Hub. I think I've read somewhere that it's now planned to add both new tracks as part of the electrification. Which certainly seems more compatible with common sense.

 

[snowball]

4th track is planned to be in for the Dec 16 timetable, though it may be slightly earlier.

CP5 enhancements delivery plan says construction complete by Feb 2016, but the press release that came out with the planning application says the end of 2017.

Thanks for the links!

 

[The Planner]

Press release is a year out, which I think we have said before too. I still doubt it will be incorporated into any timetable before Dec 16 though even if it is ready for Feb.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Press release is a year out, which I think we have said before too. I still doubt it will be incorporated into any timetable before Dec 16 though even if it is ready for Feb.

If I remember correctly I read somewhere, the formal planning permission to proceed with the purchase of the 5 mtrs of land that would allow the fourth track to be fully installed was only due to be granted sometime towards the middle of this year. Until this is received NR cannot commit recourses to completing the work in one go, and hence the reason why the work is only scheduled to be completed by the end of 2016 (or 2017 ?).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Presumably the junction itself is to be installed in the June/July closure I've seen mentioned here?
Also, regarding this closure: will we see Blackpool-Liverpool trains diverted to Ormskirk again?

I think we'll get Blackpool-St Helens C.

 

[snowball]

If I remember correctly I read somewhere, the formal planning permission to proceed with the purchase of the 5 mtrs of land that would allow the fourth track to be fully installed was only due to be granted sometime towards the middle of this year.

Indeed the application for planning permission was only put in in February. As stated above, it was the press release accompanying this event that gave the 2017 date.

 

[nw-sparks]

Given that a section of the fourth track can't be installed for another 2, 3 or 3.5 years, presumably there'll be an interim configuration of points and signals. Is there any information on what that will be?

I showed a track plan on my Blog last January. I've no idea whether plans have changed since then.

Phil

 

[The Planner]

Nothing has changed as far as I know, and seeing as that is a NR Powerpoint slide it is basically as it shows!

 

[8A Rail]

I showed a track plan on my Blog last January. I've no idea whether plans have changed since then.
Phil

I posted the links to the trackplans on 13th September last year and "OxtedL" reposted those links yesterday using my original message. They are the same as your link. As far as I am aware the track plans remain as they are and the first phase of the revised junction will take place in July.

 

[iandavid59]

The lines between Liverpool Lime Street and St Helens Junction and St Helens Central will be closed from Saturday 5th July till Monday 14th July and trains will be replaced with coaches supplied by First Rail Support coaches will run all stations and also fast between Lime Street, Wavertree Tech park, Lea Green and St Helens Jct and fast between Lime st, Huyton and St Helens Central.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed the application for planning permission was only put in in February. As stated above, it was the press release accompanying this event that gave the 2017 date.

I may have missed the raison d'etre for the said February application time period and would beg to ask why this was not made at an earlier stage in the proceedings.

 

[deltic08]

I reacquainted myself with 319s today after 20 years on a rare visit to London. My meeting finished early and had an hour to kill at KX before my train back to Yorkshire. I caught an all stations service to St Albans in unit 367. I was pleasantly surprised as motor coach 63049 appeared to have received a refresh. The traction motor noise accelerating was earpiercing at times but apart from that the experience was good.

The return to St Pancras was in the trailer car of unit 004 non-stop to Westhampstead. The ride was very steady at 90mph but everytime we crossed with a northbound train the pressure pulse almost put the doors and windows in. Doors rattled on their runners at speed but the disappointment was the filthy floor and floor ventilators with months of grime.

367 would be acceptable as a cascade as is but certainly not 004. It will just be pot luck which are sent North.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I may have missed the raison d'etre for the said February application time period and would beg to ask why this was not made at an earlier stage in the proceedings.

As I understand it the original plan in the Liverpool/Manchester electrification called for three tracks through Huyton Station and the plans were drawn up accordingly. The Northern hub project was then approved perhaps a little quicker than expected and the four tracking through Huyton was deemed necessary. Unfortunately it seems the extra bit of land to complete the scheme formed part of BT's car park and also affected the site of Huyton Bus Station and thus required a public consultation. Only once the consultation was completed could NR submit the required planning application as per links below.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...d-Liverpool-as-part-of-Northern-Hub-1ff6.aspx

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...qwgKgD&usg=AFQjCNEaio-fDEkawuk7dZQhfBbkdG3LLg

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

367 would be acceptable as a cascade as is but certainly not 004. It will just be pot luck which are sent North.

Your altruistic hopes will not allow for the fact that the matter of Class 319 units will be resolved by a fleet evaluation in which these are graded according to their internal standards and the least appealing of these will be the ones chosen to be sent up north when the time arrives.

Beatitude for the day....Blessed are those who have travelled in cleanliness and comfort for they shall have never travelled by Northern Rail

 

[Class377/5]

I reacquainted myself with 319s today after 20 years on a rare visit to London. My meeting finished early and had an hour to kill at KX before my train back to Yorkshire. I caught an all stations service to St Albans in unit 367. I was pleasantly surprised as motor coach 63049 appeared to have received a refresh. The traction motor noise accelerating was earpiercing at times but apart from that the experience was good.

The return to St Pancras was in the trailer car of unit 004 non-stop to Westhampstead. The ride was very steady at 90mph but everytime we crossed with a northbound train the pressure pulse almost put the doors and windows in. Doors rattled on their runners at speed but the disappointment was the filthy floor and floor ventilators with months of grime.

367 would be acceptable as a cascade as is but certainly not 004. It will just be pot luck which are sent North.

The current list of units to go to Northern (and confirmed by Tony Miles as being on the Northern website somewhere) are...

• 319 361
• 319 362
• 319 363
• 319 364
• 319 365
• 319 366
• 319 367
• 319 369
• 319 371
• 319 374
• 319 375
• 319 376
• 319 377
• 319 378

Its confirmed elsewhere as being correct list too. All units freed by 1st July 2015.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I reacquainted myself with 319s today after 20 years on a rare visit to London. I caught an all stations service to St Albans in unit 367. I was pleasantly surprised as motor coach 63049 appeared to have received a refresh. The traction motor noise accelerating was earpiercing at times but apart from that the experience was good.

I too did a "proving run" this week, on an off-peak St Pancras-Elstree stopper and back.
Units were all in the 319/3 series (361 and 382 I think).
Perfectly acceptable for local services in the north-west.
Seats a bit low, and all back-to-back, but comfortable enough and looking quite smart and clean.
Plenty of luggage space between the seat backs.
Generally a low-stress ride, doors open quickly and the warble is fairly quiet.
The seat layout means nobody gets a perfect view, a bit like the Merseyrail electrics.
The worst feature is the windows. Many of them are severely scratched with a lot of graffiti.
They are also covered in a plastic protective film which dims the ambient light and distorts the view somewhat.
Apart from that they don't seem to need much attention.
As 300-seat 100mph workhorses they will be fine in the NW.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The worst feature is the windows. Many of them are severely scratched with a lot of graffiti. They are also covered in a plastic protective film which dims the ambient light and distorts the view somewhat.

Would you expect this to be a matter that would be addressed prior to cascading ?

 

[deltic08]

It looks, from comments by 377/5 and LNW-GW Joint, that the Northwest may be lucky with 319/3s allocated especially if given a nice livery. At least we know 361/67/82 are usable. Any Londoners out there who can checkout the other eleven?

 

[Class377/5]

It looks, from comments by 377/5 and LNW-GW Joint, that the Northwest may be lucky with 319/3s allocated especially if given a nice livery. At least we know 361/67/82 are usable. Any Londoners out there who can checkout the other eleven?

All the /3 series are the better units out of the fleet and the least that could be transferred. Luck had nothing to do with it. The /3 series was chosen as they were some of the last refurbished units, last being done in 2009.

The /0 & /2 were never meant to go north in state they are in as they are over due an internal overhaul, originally planned for a late 2013 start prior to heading north later on. That's why the /2 are still in Southern colors.

 

[deltic08]

All the /3 series are the better units out of the fleet and the least that could be transferred. Luck had nothing to do with it. The /3 series was chosen as they were some of the last refurbished units, last being done in 2009.

The /0 & /2 were never meant to go north in state they are in as they are over due an internal overhaul, originally planned for a late 2013 start prior to heading north later on. That's why the /2 are still in Southern colors.

This needs publicising as many railway pundits and commentators are talking about the North having basket case 319s.