WatcherZero
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Merseyside: New stations planned
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LDECRexile
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This is very helpful and interesting, thank you. Could you please point me to the source, if it is public? Doing so may prevent me asking daft questions in future!
WatcherZero
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Was actually hard to track down a project breakdown, the LEP page was my first source but only had a basic description. I eventually had to backtrack it to the transport schemes prioritisation list.
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.net/documents/s9021/Enc. 2 - brief descriptions of schemes.pdf
http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.net/documents/s9021/Enc. 2 - brief descriptions of schemes.pdf
Mutant Lemming
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St.James is unlikely to happen. It would need escalators and lifts which would be too prohibitive a cost for the projected usage of a station at that site.
Wavertreelad
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The Parkside scheme is still on the cards, because the freehold of the site is to be acquired in a joint venture between St Helens Council and Langtree according to the St Helens Star
"PLANS to redevelop a former colliery into a major rail freight terminal is back on the agenda after the council announced proposals to acquire the site.
For several years Parkside has been kicked into the long grass as those for and against the development battled it out and political promises evaporated.
However, following a joint venture between the council and the property, investment and development company Langtree, they have acquired the freehold and will start work on a development strategy to secure the long term economic benefit of the site.
Council leader Barrie Grunewald, who made jobs and the economy his top priority in his leadership pledge, said: When I became leader of the council I stated that I was firmly committed to delivering Parkside and believed that I would have failed if there was no movement on this site within 18 months.
Parkside offers the potential to create thousands of new jobs. This is a prime development site in the north west and offers a unique destination sitting alongside the M6 and the West Coast mainline.
It is hoped to reinstate the rail link with the mainline to create an inter-modal freight centre.
Although a timescale has not been placed on the project the council insist that a planning application could be submitted as early as this year.
Cllr Grunewald continued: The Parkside project is now firmly under way and we are all committed to make this a success and deliver the much needed jobs for St Helens. Parkside will become one of the largest projects in Britain and it is one of the most significant in terms of regeneration in the north west.
The council has received many inquiries regarding development opportunities in recent years but the former owners have not taken the site forward.
The council worked closely with Langtree on the development of the Saints stadium and I am optimistic that this new partnership will bring new jobs to the site.
John Downes chief executive of Langtree added: The former Parkside Colliery site is a tremendous development opportunity and we are delighted to have joined forces with the council to bring the site back into beneficial use.
The news was also welcomed by St Helens North MP Dave Watts, who said: This is a major development and the job opportunities will be fantastic.
With the jobs and investment in the local area its a win-win situation.
http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/10924844.Parkside_development_is_back_on_track/
The scheme also appears on the Liverpool City Region Local Enterprise Partnership (LCR Lep) which is working alongside the Liverpool Region Combined Authority (LCRA) to develop a long term development plan for the region based on the Liverpool Superport. The LCR Lep represents both private and public interests across the LRCA area. The site along with many others appears on page 13 of the report which can be found on this link
http://www.liverpoollep.org/pdf/SUPERPORTlowres.pdf
and is attached in the first pdf.
The development of Newton Le Willows as an interchange appears to be totally separate to any developments with the Parkside scheme, but the report does indicate how the two authorities envisage the freight and logistics will be developed in the region. I note Liverpool City Region Growth Deal announced on the 7th Jul refers to a settlement of £232 million being awarded to region, the full report, rather than the press release is attached in the second pdf attached.
Hope this goes someway to clarifying the position.
LDECRexile
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Impressive, warm thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It certainly does, very helpful and constructive. Thank you.
Wavertreelad
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Unlikely to worry Merseytravel, think of the money they lost on the trams and the move to their new offices..
Halewood South
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As you can see from my User Name, I am biased towards a new station for Halewood. Jaguar Landrover, Halewood Town Council, Knowsley Borough Council and Merseytravel have in the past discussed the possibility of a new station being sited at the Jaguar railhead. "Halewood South". Such a station adds value to the reintroduction of the Halton Curve in bolstering passenger numbers to use the line through to Chester and North Wales. In the absence of a direct link to the airport or even as an interim until a direct link was provided. This is a quality site and a Station sited here would have the capability of providing a much needed stop off point for intercity trains because the nearest stations that could accommodate inter city trains are Liverpool Lime Street or Runcorn. Both of these are over five miles away. For some background information,have a look at the article on the local Labour Party Website.
http://halewoodlabourparty.co.uk/halewoods-gateway-to-a-potential-44000-jobs/
But to be honest would Inter City trains use Halewood South as well as Liverpool South Parkway. It is still a distance away from the airport, would require new bus routes to connect it to the airport, would mean that the trains calling there would probably no longer stop at South Parkway severing the connection with three major South Liverpool bus routes, Merseyrails Northern Line, and the Cheshire Lines route. Unless the trains call at South Parkway and Halewood South.
RE: the freight lines bootle branch and north Mersey branch getting brought in. Can lime street handle it?
If north Mersey is going to the northern line isn't that just making even more lopsided.
the seems to be no capacity east of south parkway also can they get the rolling stock for such things.
If north Mersey is going to the northern line isn't that just making even more lopsided.
the seems to be no capacity east of south parkway also can they get the rolling stock for such things.
At the end of the day Jaguar currently seems to require something like 2 subsidised buses at its shift changes which are currently covered. Personally I can't see the requirement for an inter city railway station halfway between Speke and Halewood unless the plan is to concrete over everything between Speke and Hale and Halewood, Hough Green and Warrington.
I found the article quite amusing to be honest any station at the particular location in question would need considerable work and more expensive than LSP (that was over £30m!!). Mention was made that the station to be situated on the two "disused" spur lines - mmm that is interesting, as far as I am aware they are not disused as they are used by the Jaguar Auto Trains as part of the shunting movements and also the departure and arrival roads for the trains too. Without them there is no access to the Exchange Sidings for the Jaguar / Land Rover Factory. Put a station there would certainly jeopodise those trains and currently there is four in and four almost 6 days a week - operationally it would be a disaster.
As for additional benefits and easier access to the airport, actually I dont think so as the distances in question are really marginal including the time too. Inter City trains already stop at LSP albeit not the London trains. But any person on a Virgin Train wont travelling on them to get to the LJP airport as there are other airports nearer and you have three in and around London already, so why travel north. If they did, they would go to Manchester Airport.
Sorry but the whole article is generally misplaced, probably attempting to get political points with local people and businesses. Yes get the some of the workers in and out by rail but at what cost, the cars built being transported out by road (may be extreme but it could happen)?
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HSTEd
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Rather belatedly on the Ormskirk-Preston line, assuming that whatever units end up on Merseyrail in future can ekep to Pacer timings, it would actually provide a quicker route to Preston, and indeed to points North of there, than changing at Lime Street for a significant fraction of Liverpool - even once Liverpool-Scotland services are reinstated.
The faster WCML route is made up for by the avoidance of a change at Lime Street and potentially elsewhere.
It also gets rid of an annoying stub that seems unlikely to amount to anything otherwise.
Would likely require loops installed to allow a full 2tph service though.
The faster WCML route is made up for by the avoidance of a change at Lime Street and potentially elsewhere.
It also gets rid of an annoying stub that seems unlikely to amount to anything otherwise.
Would likely require loops installed to allow a full 2tph service though.
I've always thought the Ormskirk - Preston line had potential, but for inter-city travellers, a change required at OMS, the sporadic timings thence and the uncomfortable stock (a Pacer most of the time) means people just won't use it if they don't have to.
With more frequent trains or more efficient units, OMS - PRE could become more effectively utilized. As it stands, the route barely fills 2 cars during peak hours.
Fernakapan
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Actually Merseyrail suggested that it would be an initial cost of £10m....
Who do you think you are? And where do you get your "knowledge" from?
The idea behind a Liverpool South Station has come from Halewood Town Council, Knowsley Borough Council and Merseyrail...all three of them being political entities...not IMHO from rank amateurs such as yourself, I would respectfully suggest that you get your facts straight before opening your mouth and putting both feet in it.
As regards Jaguar Landrover , they are very much in favour of the project, and see no need for any change to their delivery schedules ( and they should know)
I could see City Line trains stopping there, but how are Merseyrail services going to get there? And are Merseyrail a political entity? Further to this saying that it will mean the people of Knowsley will be able to avoid the congestion of Liverpool, they will have to travel a good distance first since it is right on the edge of Knowsley.
Further to this would the London Midland services cease stopping at South Parkway or call at both?
A lot of the other arguments don't stack up either, there isn't a good bus service to Halewood station, well there isn't a good one to this site either, and it is also right on the edge of Halewood. The Jag plant may be Halewood, but it is the only part of Halewood that is on that side of the railway. Closer to Liverpool Airport by a whole 1/2 a mile. And what was that stuff about the Everton Academy being able to use it?
Don't get me wrong, anything is possible given a long enough time. I think thousands of people commuting from Knowsley to Port Ince and Port Bridgewater by train is a bite of a distant dream at the mo though.
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Halewood South
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You raise a lot of interesting questions about bus provision and accessibility of stations. Regarding accessibility Liverpool South Parkway is a White Elephant for people living in the Halewood and indeed the Knowsley area. There is no adequate bus service to this station and the cost of travelling by bus is excessive. Despite the large car park, there is little or no parking provision and people are forced to park in residential areas. Halewood and Hunts Cross stations have similar problems. People find it cheaper and more convenient to travel further than they need to by car from this area. Halewood people need a quicker and cheaper means of travelling to Liverpool. They also need an effective means of crossing the river without travelling by car and having additional costs brought about by the proposed tolls for both the Runcorn bridges. Local Government (or in the words of 8A Rail "Politicians" ) have been looking at means of addressing these problems. The site is sufficient, London Midland said they would only be to happy to stop there. There is sufficient space for Merseyrail Trains to camp out there all year without disrupting the goods traffic or the Virgin Pendolino. The Virgin trains cannot stop at Liverpool South Parkway because of the inability to extend the platform lengths but they could have two trains parked end to end at a new "South Halewood" station, the track is straight and over a quarter of a mile long. I hope this goes some way to answering the questions you pose.
Wavertreelad
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Ignoring the politics of this debate, if there is support for this project from Merseytravel which is the organisation usually responsible for such schemes, it should appear on the list of thirty stations they have identified as possible schemes for inclusion on the long term transport plan when it is published in September. Merseyrail is the train operator on the Northern and Wirral Lines only, neither of which pass the proposed site. City Line trains from Lime Street follow the CLC route to Warrington and apart from LM and Virgin as far as I am aware there is currently no other operator on this stretch of line and with Virgin already calling at Runcorn, I could not see them stopping at Halewood South as well.
With the Halton Curve now approved, it would be reasonable to suggest that at some point post 2016 a service from Lime Street would run on the route via Runcorn either to Chester or North Wales which could stop at the proposed Halewood South site. However, the location of the site is to me far from ideal tucked away behind the Jaguar factory, and away from the main roads of Higher Road and Speke Boulevard making it not particularly attractive for a park and ride scheme either. Furthermore, with the CLC line likely to be electrified before this scheme gets off the drawing board, I would suspect there would be few Halewood residents willing to travel to Halewood South to get a train into Liverpool when they could do the same from an existing station on their doorstep at Halewood on the CLC line?
Indeed: that's why the ELR built it, and it remained the main line up until 1969 (for Blackpool)/70 (for Preston, Lancaster and Scotland). I'd say the problem, though, is that I can't imagine the demand for fast through Liverpool-Blackpool/Scotland trains is particularly enormous nowadays, and so it's more sensible to run these services through St. Helens and Wigan, both of which are considerably bigger towns providing more custom than, say, Ormskirk and Burscough.
Preston-Ormskirk is my own route, and I'd love one day to be proved wrong, but as I said earlier in this thread, I can't see it. Best case scenario, IMO, is electrification and a half-hourly service to Burscough, and an hourly service on the rest of the branch. Also, no buffer stops at Burscough to allow the line to be used for diversions into the north Liverpool suburbs when St. Helens is out of action for whatever reason, thus greatly shortening the required length of time on replacement buses.
In a world where cash (and perhaps logic!) was no option, I'd reopen on a smaller scale Exchange station, as its site is largely just a car park now. Into this new Exchange I'd run a new "fast from Southport" service and a new North Mersey Branch service, as well as an hourly semi-fast Blackpool via Ormskirk, and a Wigan stopper. The Transpennine Liverpool-Newcastle could go this way too, via Wallgate, as could a new Liverpool-Scotland service. Pipe dreams...
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Spot on then mate, I think if London Midland would be willing to stop there and also Parkway it would be a good spot for a station. Areas the size of Speke and Halewood are currently very poorly served by the railways (I'm not entirely convinced by how a station on the very edge of both would improve things), there are of course very large areas of Liverpool that are not but that goes by the by. I honestly think in my own personal opinion that service from the proposed site to the airport is largely irrelevant. The people of Knowsley would have to travel to the new station to get perhaps a proposed bus route from there to the airport. Evertons academy, meh, I would say the same about Liverpools despite being a red.
By the way, I wanted to add, I have nothing against Halewood, I spent the first 3 years of my life living in a house backing on to the CLC route there. In fact I've almost always lived backing on to a railway in South Liverpool.
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Wavertreelad
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I'd agree removing the buffers and electrification all the way to Preston, preferably with OHLE would be a major boost for the local economy and the route in both directions. If the OHLE was eventually extended back to Liverpool opening up the possibility of using the route for freight traffic to and from the Port of Liverpool using that North Mersey Branch.
Would that be possible? A cursory look at Google maps suggests that there's no easy route from the North Mersey to the docks without reversing somewhere: the original direct route has housing on it now: you'd be looking at the demolition of fifty or sixty pretty modern houses.
First, a warm welcome to the forum!
Who do I think I am you ask A person who is entitled to express his opinions on any subject he cares to discuss given his reasonable knowledge of the area in question (& Merseyside) and also his local railway knowledge of over 30+ years. Likewise I would expect any person to respect those opinions regardless if they agree with them or not. I am happy to respect your opinions whether I agree with them or not but like me you are entitled to make them.
Information I have obtained is via the link kindly provided by Halewood South with the article by Halewood Labour Party. Some of the information in the article was clearly incorrect and some slight contradictions also. I live in the borough of Knowsley and also work in Speke and virtually go pass site at least five days a week, including having full knowledge of the track layout and the operation of the freight trains in that area. Living in the borough, gives me the right as a Council Tax payer to express an opinion on anything that affects the Borough.
Anyway, as this was and your only post so far on the forum, and clearly you seem to suggest you know things, then here is your golden opportunity to inform everyone on the forum with your expert opinions of what is the background to this proposal along with facts / figures to back it up.
You mention Merseyrail or are you actually referring to Merseytravel as it would be the latter organisation that I reckon that may be interested in the scheme. Merseyrail is the train operating company that operates on the 3rd rail system. If Merseyrail is the interested party than I would like to see their proposals along with those from Network Rail to see how they wish to extend the 3rd rail to Halewood South? In fact it would be probably cheaper to extend to LJL Airport. If "Merseytravel" is in support of such a station, I cannot see them attempting wish to make the station as direct competition to Liverpool South Parkway as that station is one of their jewels in their crown.
As for Jaguar, Im pleased they support the scheme and be hoped they would financially contribute to it too. Yes they should know how their trains operate, but not without expertise of present FOC, DBS and also Network Rail as it will be the latter organisation that will dictate what is possible or not in operational matters. Given you suggested Merseyrail have stated that initial cost would be £10 million, what does that include? Does that include the probably additional track and the associated signal work to go with the scheme. Are the platforms able to accommodate possible 11 car Pendolinos? So many questions to ask!
I am also in favour of new stations being opened where ever they may but in this day and age, the arguments for such stations must be on the basis of overall cost and the benefits that may be gained for the area's in question. In relation to "Halewood South" and facts / reasons so far, I am not convinced it comes under high on the list of current priorities for new scheme's and probably not value for money either but that is just my opinion on information available so far.
Anyway, as I indicated before, here is your golden opportunity to pass on your expertise knowledge of this proposal as I and others will be happy to read them.
Gareth
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No station at that location will replace South Parkway. Whilst the latter may not have long enough platforms for pendolinos, it provides a direct interchange for the Merseyrail Northern Line and for services towards Warrington Central, including long distance services. Halewood South would not be able to offer this.
No TOC is going to stop calling at South Parkway if it's a choice of one or the other. London Midland might stop in addition to South Parkway, considering the Liverpool-Birmingham services is already a glorified commuter rail line but even then, chances are they'd only want to stop one of the two trains per hour. I can't see Virgin giving it the time of day.
No TOC is going to stop calling at South Parkway if it's a choice of one or the other. London Midland might stop in addition to South Parkway, considering the Liverpool-Birmingham services is already a glorified commuter rail line but even then, chances are they'd only want to stop one of the two trains per hour. I can't see Virgin giving it the time of day.
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I would tend to agree to be honest. I can't see anyone moving a pretty large rail hub further away from built up areas. Does this new site really have a lot more space for car parking? It doesn't look it unless unless everyone at the Halewood plant suddenly start using public transport and everyone else starts driving to a new station.
Xenophon PCDGS
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How very well put. I wonder if all new forum members take the trouble to read the very clear and concisely written rules of the RailUK website when they join.
Wavertreelad
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I'd agree the need to reverse could be a problem, but there was a route up to the 1970's from Alexandra Dock under Rimrose Road which ran largely under Marsh Lane to Walton on Hill. Much of the infrastructure appears to be in place, although a cutting at the back of Rimrose Road has been filled in. It would a link from this route to the North Mersey Line allowing trains to join the Ormskirk line at Aintree Station. I believe Merseytravel have considered in the past reopening this section of the route to passenger traffic which as far I know has been protected from redevelopment, although it is heavy overgrown.
Fernakapan
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Personally I wonder if the older forum members read them either....Sneering comments that Halewood South was writing with a purely cynical political point of view (without any proof whatsoever) hardly adds weight to any arguments.
As regards the finance question, it was suggested originally by Merseytravel, that initial cost would be around £10m, Merseyrail, who were also at the same meeting, agreed whole-heartedly with the figure.
So on Thursday it was Merseyrail who suggested it. Today it is Merseytravel and Merseyrail agreed with them?
Wavertreelad
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Allowing for a possible natural confusion between Merseytravel and Merseyrail and ignoring the source of reference in the original post and the possible politics and for the moment the costs involved, what could the proposal offer?
1. Serving 5000/6000 workers at the Jaguar factory and surrounding logistics and support industries - I suspect most of the Jaguar and surrounding industry and logistics workers are fairly well paid and probably use their own cars or get lifts to commute to and from work, especially those working anti-social hours. Yes there will be some low paid jobs and workers using public transport but without some sort of survey to determine where these workers live it's impossible to speculate the potential patronage of a Halewood South station. My personal guess and that's all it can be is that the majority will come from the nearby areas of Halewood, Speke and Garston and Hunts Cross which is unlikely to help the cause.
2. The location is not ideal tucked away from main routes so it's use as a park and ride facility is limited and it's relative remoteness to residential areas does not help either. If the railway ran along the path of Speke Boulevard with the Jaguar plant on one side and Speke on the other it would be a completely different matter but that is not going to happen.
3. I'd agree with the Halton Curve plan approved, there is possibly scope for a station between Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway. However, I suspect reopening Ditton might be a cheaper and better alternative as this would have the benefit of serving Halebank plus the neighbouring industrial locations. It is also close enough to Speke Road to construct the reopened station as a park and ride facility with either a link road, or upgrade of the existing road enabling the station to potentially serve the large residential area to the north of the road. This would enable to population of Widnes to have an alternative method of reaching Runcorn, and any point beyond to the south of the River Mersey.
I'd therefore be very surprised it Halewood South appears on the Merseytravel list of projects to be published in September, and if it not on this it is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future.
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