Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[hidden]

If it's not been stated already the ECD or cheap evening return is also being withdrawn.

 

[Moonshot]

There have been plenty of discussions about this in the past. The train companies believe that a national railcard would cannibalise revenues (and they are probably right). It is a wonder that the Network Railcard survives still (and that the minimum fare hasn't increased to £15 or even £20 yet).

Not so sure about that. with all the rail cards on offer , the only section of population that doesnt seem to be catered for is the single traveller between the ages of 26 and 60 outside of the Network card area. If such travellers in the TFGM area are being penalised by these proposals of removing cheap evening returns here, I dont see anything actually being offered to soften the blow. Whilst I cant disagree with the fact that direct subsidy is being reduced, it does alienate people if there hasnt been a consultation on this, I d be watching out for a reaction from Passenger Focus before too long.

Worth pointing out that 70% of tickets sold today are ones that are in fact discounted in one form or another.

 

[northwichcat]

Worth pointing out that 70% of tickets sold today are ones that are in fact discounted in one form or another.

How that's worked out? Is an Anytime Return classed as discounted because it's cheaper than two singles?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to the Bolton News TfGM wanted Northern to implement car parking charges INSTEAD of evening peak restrictions: http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...__will_suffer__due_to_fare_changes/?ref=var_0

It seems TfGM wanted the opposite of Metro and Metro got their way with the Direct Award and TfGM didn't.

 

[Moonshot]

How that's worked out? Is an Anytime Return classed as discounted because it's cheaper than two singles?

No idea.....its something I picked up from one of those TSC transcripts a while ago. But from my own view of checking tickets, I would say its certainly not wide of the mark if its inclusive of season tickets which are discounted.

 

[Merseysider]

From the article:

The Government lumped together all the least profitable parts of the network under one franchise and then expressed surprise that it doesn’t make money. What were they expecting?

This seems a good enough point.

A Department of Transport spokesman said: “These changes will help us achieve our long-term economic plan of building a rail network that provides the best possible value for money for the taxpayer.

It's always about "value for money" and "the taxpayer" with them isn't it? Yet "the taxpayer" isn't going to notice any difference in the tax they pay and the passengers affected certainly aren't getting improved value for money.

 

[Deerfold]

If it's not been stated already the ECD or cheap evening return is also being withdrawn.

Yes. It's in the first post of the thread.

 

[WatcherZero]

Instead of creating multiple peak zones based on pte's all with different rules and creating a shed load of anomalies now, I wonder if it would have been better to define one contigious corridor on a map based on actual peak train usage spikes as the Metropolitan North. Some rural stops may be dragged in but it would be a simpler system with easy to make out station maps, easier to understand for the average passenger who has little idea. Perhaps something for Rail North to look at harmonising.

 

[Rail Ranger]

jcollins,

The article could have been worded better but it was DfT which wanted to impose car parking charges at station car parks in PTE areas served by Northern and all of the PTEs affected (including TfGM) successfully opposed this.

 

[yorkie]

It's always about "value for money" and "the taxpayer" with them isn't it? Yet "the taxpayer" isn't going to notice any difference in the tax they pay and the passengers affected certainly aren't getting improved value for money.

What they mean is non-passenger taxpayers, ie what they really care about is it's better for car drivers. That's in line with Government pro-car/anti-rail policy. However I suggest we keep this thread to the specifics of the restrictions (including the impact of them) and create a new thread to discuss the policies that have led to the decisions.

 

[Merseysider]

What they mean is non-passenger taxpayers, ie what they really care about is it's better for car drivers. That's in line with Government pro-car/anti-rail policy. However I suggest we keep this thread to the specifics of the restrictions (including the impact of them) and create a new thread to discuss the policies that have led to the decisions.

Of course, didn't realise I was going OT.

In the meantime, are the discussions that led to the changes going to be ongoing, and if so, is there room for review (and possible alteration/partial withdrawal) of the new restrictions after a given period of time?

 

[yorkie]

Of course, didn't realise I was going OT.

In the meantime, are the discussions that led to the changes going to be ongoing, and if so, is there room for review (and possible alteration/partial withdrawal) of the new restrictions after a given period of time?

Perhaps someone could include that question as part of an FOI request?

 

[Merseysider]

I see problems occurring where the WTT and public timetables differ on the actual departure time of the train.

Restriction : ND

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Valid on trains timed to depart between 0930 - 1600 inc and from 1830 onwards.

RETURN TRAVEL

Any train the same day except those timed to depart between 1601 - 1829 inc

So presumably this would mean off-peak tickets cannot be used on the 1829 MAN - MIA.

However the working timetable at Network Rail shows 1M90 as actually departing at 1830. So which is it to be?

 

[IanXC]

I see problems occurring where the WTT and public timetables differ on the actual departure time of the train.

So presumably this would mean off-peak tickets cannot be used on the 1829 MAN - MIA.

However the working timetable at Network Rail shows 1M90 as actually departing at 1830. So which is it to be?

Hmm, "trains timed to depart", " trains advertised to depart", "trains scheduled to depart" I'm not sure there's really anything in it, given the public timetable is the only public source provides by the TOCs.

 

[nw1]

From the article:

This seems a good enough point.

It's always about "value for money" and "the taxpayer" with them isn't it? Yet "the taxpayer" isn't going to notice any difference in the tax they pay and the passengers affected certainly aren't getting improved value for money.

Yes, the dreaded capital-T Taxpayer.
(edited as was going off topic)

 

[Philip C]

I note that it will now be cheaper to travel into Manchester, in the evening peak, on a return ticket from Poynton (£5.90) than from either Bramhall (£7.70) or Cheadle Hulme (£6.30). Given how much further outside the GM border Buxton is than Poynton, can anybody suggest why the Macclesfield line has escaped the net whilst the Buxton, and I understand Alderley Edge lines have not?

I was also surprised to see that the Poynton fare is valid via Macclesfield, at least at those times that it is the quickest route!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's always about "value for money" and "the taxpayer" with them isn't it? Yet "the taxpayer" isn't going to notice any difference in the tax they pay and the passengers affected certainly aren't getting improved value for money.

One might ask exactly which "taxpayers" are referred to....those in the affected area or those in the country at large.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I note that it will now be cheaper to travel into Manchester, in the evening peak, on a return ticket from Poynton (£5.90) than from either Bramhall (£7.70) or Cheadle Hulme (£6.30). Given how much further outside the GM border Buxton is than Poynton, can anybody suggest why the Macclesfield line has escaped the net whilst the Buxton, and I understand Alderley Edge lines have not?

How does Prestbury fare in this matter of travel to Manchester in the evening peak times ?

 

[Manchester77]

How does Prestbury fare in this matter of travel to Manchester in the evening peak times ?

I've had a look on National Rail Enquiries and there's only one fare I can find that isn't £8.00 from Prestbury - Piccadilly:
(Looked on Monday the 15th September, 1 adult)

 

[Philip C]

I've had a look on National Rail Enquiries and there's only one fare I can find that isn't £8.00 from Prestbury - Piccadilly:View attachment 19266
(Looked on Monday the 15th September, 1 adult)

I'm sorry to have to attempt to correct you but you are quoting Single Fares from Prestbury to Piccadilly. I had previously given Return Fares with the outward journey during the evening peak and the return journey (out of Manchester) in the late evening. The equivalent from Prestbury is £8.20 and by clicking the button marked "Other Off-Peak Trains You Can Travel on with This Ticket" it is clear that travelling via Macclesfield on the 1744 ex Prestbury can be done on an £8.20 Off-Peak Return Ticket.

Thus yet another anomaly with returns cheaper than singles - but this is unlikely to be a new feature from September.

 

[stuartmoss]

Couple of questions regarding the new evening peak in West Yorkshire.

1. Does this just apply to Northern Trains? i.e. Could I travel from Wakefield Westgate to Leeds with East Coast or Cross Country during the evening peak period?

2. Presumably those with a WY day rover will be able to travel on buses during the evening peak period? This could have knock-on problematic effects on the buses if so.

Regards.

 

[Rail Ranger]

I'm afraid that Wakefield Westgate-Leeds fares are code "PWY" (inter-available fares in the West Yorkshire PTE area) so all evening peak journeys with any TOC will be subject to the restrictions.

 

[Qwerty133]

Do you want a system everyone can understand in a simple way, or do you want an intricate system where even the staff have to look up the restrictions (or guess)?

As I've said before I believe peak restrictions should be changed to something similar to this (based on the new restrictions for Northern)
Valid on trains between 09:30 and 15:59 and at or after 18:30. Also between 09:19-09:29 where there is no further service in the same direction before 10:20 and 18:19-18:29 where there is no further service in the same direction before 19:20.
These restrictions apply MONDAY to FRIDAY only, and do not apply on public holiday.

 

[scrapy]

I note that it will now be cheaper to travel into Manchester, in the evening peak, on a return ticket from Poynton (£5.90) than from either Bramhall (£7.70) or Cheadle Hulme (£6.30). Given how much further outside the GM border Buxton is than Poynton, can anybody suggest why the Macclesfield line has escaped the net whilst the Buxton, and I understand Alderley Edge lines have not?

I was also surprised to see that the Poynton fare is valid via Macclesfield, at least at those times that it is the quickest route!

Poynton to Manchester fare is not valid via Macclesfield and National Rail shows 2 tickets are required (totalling £12.40 singles), it may be the quickest option but not valid route as you double back.

For some reason where a bus is involved national rail website allows travel via Macclesfield seems to be allowed for £5.80 single but this is probably a glitch in the national rail system as I see no reason why it should be valid.

 

[muz379]

For me a clearer way of communicating the information to passengers would be if on the timetable and information screens (in stations with them ) the train had either a P or OP on the screen to tell passengers if the train is Peak or Not , That way you could have individual restrictions at every station for every train without having to lay down a complex restriction system

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have Northern Rail said when they will be putting a complete information package regarding this matter upon their website, so that rail travellers can refer to it ?

 

[muz379]

Have Northern Rail said when they will be putting a complete information package regarding this matter upon their website, so that rail travellers can refer to it ?

even if they did , how many are going to refer to it , and how many that do refer to it are likely to understand it , the difficulties we are having here given that we are interested in the railway and ticketing

Posters at stations clearly outlining the changes at those specific stations would be a good start IMO

 

[185143]

Have Northern Rail said when they will be putting a complete information package regarding this matter upon their website, so that rail travellers can refer to it ?

I was out bashing the other day, and at a station I went to, the staff have stuck the retail brief describing exactly what was changing onto a ticket office window.

The GM Wayfarer and Cheshire/Lancashire Day Rangers are NOT affected.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

http://www.wymetro.com/news/Changes_to_Evening_Peak_Restrictions_on_Northern_Trains/

Statement from Metro indicates that DayRovers will be restricted.

 

[InstantStation]

Merseytravel Saveaway one-day rover tickets USED to have an evening restriction some time ago but currently are available to use all day after the morning peak. Including on Northern Rail services in Merseyside as well as Merseyrail services and buses.

Why is the need to restrict evening peak use of a PTE day rover there for Greater Manchester, Yorkshire and Tyneside but not for Merseyside? Or is this going to change?

 

[telstarbox]

@muz379: Trains aren't peak or off-peak per se, only tickets are. If you come into Manchester on a train which starts outside Greater Manchester, an off-peak ticket may still be valid in the evening peak depending on the restriction code.

 

[Hadders]

@muz379: Trains aren't peak or off-peak per se, only tickets are. If you come into Manchester on a train which starts outside Greater Manchester, an off-peak ticket may still be valid in the evening peak depending on the restriction code.

Indeed. What I have seen in the press on this suggests that all off-peak tickets will be barred during the evening peak when this absolutely isn't the case.

How many people doing a longer journey will buy an Anytime fare when an Off-peak would suffice?

Then there's the possibility of untrained members of staff thinking this too.