Observations as a conductor doing tickets..

[rdeez]

What concerns me most is that future investment must be based on demand / usage. LM clearly have little idea of either at present based on their current abdication on revenue collection. Never mid investment, I can see the service being ripened for cutbacks based on lower revenues. That'll save someone (DfT) some money.

This is a good point that I hadn't really considered. I can imagine fare evasion being high enough on some routes to impact usage figures by a few percentage points...

 

[Qwerty133]

So anyone who gets their trolley checked to make sure they haven't been over or under-charged is a muppet?

Fine logic there, well done. :roll:

Or they check their own receipt/ only have a few items and know the cost

 

[Clip]

So anyone who gets their trolley checked to make sure they haven't been over or under-charged is a muppet?

Fine logic there, well done. :roll:

Are they having their reciepts checked to make sure they havent been under/over charged or are they doing it to make sure they havent stolen anything?

The amount of times Ive seen people in supermarkets with stuff on the chassis of the trolley and not being scanned so therefore not charged is more than I can count.

 

[Starmill]

The amount of times Ive seen people in supermarkets with stuff on the chassis of the trolley and not being scanned so therefore not charged is more than I can count.

Apologies if I am misunderstanding, I have never been to a Costco. But do we not have a name for what's described here... theft?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Are they having their reciepts checked to make sure they havent been under/over charged or are they doing it to make sure they havent stolen anything?

The amount of times Ive seen people in supermarkets with stuff on the chassis of the trolley and not being scanned so therefore not charged is more than I can count.

There is a large sign next to the exit of my local Costco explaining that it is to make sure all goods are accounted for and the customer has been charged correctly. I would also imagine the attendant would question anything not on the receipt but in the trolley.

I've never seen what you have described happen though, but is something that does sound about right. I have only ever seen people pocket stuff or simply walk out with it.

I'm getting more at the fact that you are apparently a muppet if you get your trolley checked.

 

[drbdrb]

So anyone who gets their trolley checked to make sure they haven't been over or under-charged is a muppet?

Fine logic there, well done. :roll:

They are not checking to see if you have been undercharged, only to check that you are not colluding with their dishonest staff to steal.

Costco must have real concerns about the dishonesty of their staff, because it is usual to have two members of staff working each till. One directing the customer and helping empty the trolley (or for large items that are left in, putting them in a position to be scanned). Higher value items are all empty boxes and are brought from the security store when paid for.

So to get something through the tills in the trolley without payment is very unlikely without the collaboration of at least one dishonest member of Costco staff.

At the security check all they do is count the number of items in the trolley to check the number is not higher than the number of items on the receipt. They don't check if it is lower (I know, I checked).

Now it is bad enough that Costco distrusts its customers and staff so much that it puts in place this exit check, but then it doesn't staff it properly.

So you have a long queue of muppets waiting to have their trolley checked for goods that they had just paid for, because Costco believes it has employed a higher number of dishonest staff than other retailers.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

They are not checking to see if you have been undercharged, only to check that you are not colluding with their dishonest staff to steal.

Costco must have real concerns about the dishonesty of their staff, because it is usual to have two members of staff working each till. One directing the customer and helping empty the trolley (or for large items that are left in, putting them in a position to be scanned). Higher value items are all empty boxes and are brought from the security store when paid for.

So to get something through the tills in the trolley without payment is very unlikely without the collaboration of at least one dishonest member of Costco staff.

At the security check all they do is count the number of items in the trolley to check the number is not higher than the number of items on the receipt. They don't check if it is lower (I know, I checked).

Now it is bad enough that Costco distrusts its customers and staff so much that it puts in place this exit check, but then it doesn't staff it properly.

So you have a long queue of muppets waiting to have their trolley checked for goods that they had just paid for, because Costco believes it has employed a higher number of dishonest staff than other retailers.

There is a sign at my local costco and the words 'undercharged' and 'overcharged' are both mentioned in there. The member of staff goes through your trolley and checks it against the receipt. They are usually very quick and very friendly.

It still doesn't make you a muppet though, that is a bit insulting do you not think? :roll:

 

[Flamingo]

We're back to supermarket analogies (and seriously off-thread)...

 

[drbdrb]

There is a sign at my local costco and the words 'undercharged' and 'overcharged' are both mentioned in there. The member of staff goes through your trolley and checks it against the receipt.

They may say overcharged, but they don't check for that. Take one item out of your trolley and then go through security, and nothing will be said. They are only checking for a larger number of items in the trolley than on the receipt.

Anyway back to the topic, I never understand the point of ticket checks. My experience is that if you offer your ticket it is checked, if you don't, it isn't.

 

[hassaanhc]

They are not checking to see if you have been undercharged, only to check that you are not colluding with their dishonest staff to steal.

Costco must have real concerns about the dishonesty of their staff, because it is usual to have two members of staff working each till. One directing the customer and helping empty the trolley (or for large items that are left in, putting them in a position to be scanned). Higher value items are all empty boxes and are brought from the security store when paid for.

So to get something through the tills in the trolley without payment is very unlikely without the collaboration of at least one dishonest member of Costco staff.

At the security check all they do is count the number of items in the trolley to check the number is not higher than the number of items on the receipt. They don't check if it is lower (I know, I checked).

Now it is bad enough that Costco distrusts its customers and staff so much that it puts in place this exit check, but then it doesn't staff it properly.

So you have a long queue of muppets waiting to have their trolley checked for goods that they had just paid for, because Costco believes it has employed a higher number of dishonest staff than other retailers.

There is a sign at my local costco and the words 'undercharged' and 'overcharged' are both mentioned in there. The member of staff goes through your trolley and checks it against the receipt. They are usually very quick and very friendly.

It still doesn't make you a muppet though, that is a bit insulting do you not think? :roll:

My dad was a supervisor for Bestway, a major Cash-&-Carry in the London area in the 1990s. He says they checked trolleys on exit back then too, due to a high amount of theft. In particular there was a high instance of theft on alcohol and cigarettes, and instances of items being swapped with more expensive ones after payment.
Another major Cash-&-Carry in the London area is TRS, who weigh the items in the trolley before the exit door is opened.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

So it still makes you a muppet then, queueing up to have your trolley checked?

 

[neilmc]

When I go shopping at Costco, I don't feel like a muppet, more like I've got a number tattooed on my arm and I'm about to be shot if the receipt and trolley contents don't tally.

Most train journeys are much more pleasant than that, but I can buy a Costco cake which feeds about 30 for the price of a couple of slices from any rail outlet.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That's the attitude I take, day to day fare evasion is a game they we are playing on different sides, if I get someone I win today, if they get away with it they've won today.

Although I think some lose a lot more than they realise. The amount of singles I sell with a niggling suspicion they are probably coming back later in the day makes me think a lot of people think a return costs the same as two singles and don't realise that when the get caught in both directs they are paying an awful lot more than the normal return fare.

Put it down to karma?

Not that long ago I was working a Saturday afternoon train and a group of lads boarded for a trip into town. They all asked for singles. Due to the journey I assumed they would be coming back again, and asked about 3 or 4 times if they were coming back at any point? They insisted they weren't and only wanted a single. As I walked away I could hear one of them telling his mates that there is no point buying a return as "the ticket man never comes later on".

The shift I was on meant I was the ticket man later on too, and they all ended up on my train back home. As I always do tickets on late trains no matter what, they seemed somewhat shocked to have to pay. And I duly obliged by selling them a single back.

And then pointed out that if they hadn't been trying to diddle us out of money, and brought a return the first time round, it would have only cost 10p more than a single, so they had each paid about £12 more than they needed to.
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This is a good point that I hadn't really considered. I can imagine fare evasion being high enough on some routes to impact usage figures by a few percentage points...

This happened a few years ago on the Middlesbrough - Whitby line. Northern tried to convince itself, and others, that there was no passenger demand at intermediate stations as no tickets were sold. The reason no tickets were sold was because in the summer the train was so full leaving Middlesbrough that either a) passengers at intermediate stations physically couldn't get on the train or b) if they did manage to get on the guard couldn't get to sell them a ticket. In either situation no passenger demand or travel is recorded.

 

[TheEdge]

Not that long ago I was working a Saturday afternoon train and a group of lads boarded for a trip into town. They all asked for singles. Due to the journey I assumed they would be coming back again, and asked about 3 or 4 times if they were coming back at any point? They insisted they weren't and only wanted a single. As I walked away I could hear one of them telling his mates that there is no point buying a return as "the ticket man never comes later on".

The shift I was on meant I was the ticket man later on too, and they all ended up on my train back home. As I always do tickets on late trains no matter what, they seemed somewhat shocked to have to pay. And I duly obliged by selling them a single back.

I had something similar today, sold a chap on Tuesday a single from A to B, caught him coming home later that day and sold him another single from B to A.

Today I sold him a return from A to B! Lesson learnt there I think!

 

[trentside]

I had something similar today, sold a chap on Tuesday a single from A to B, caught him coming home later that day and sold him another single from B to A.

Today I sold him a return from A to B! Lesson learnt there I think!

Seems to be the favourite trick amongst a small minority of those who commute just one or two stops down the line. I seem quite good at catching these people out, and likewise they seem to learn after a day or two. I'm also surprised that there are a few regular commuters who think that the sleeping trick works - and try it almost every day, just to avoid getting their ticket out (or purchasing one in a few cases).
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Which is exactly why you cannot trust that just because a station is barriered everyone will have a ticket.

Just to add to what I've said above - the people you catch with a single each way around my patch are usually travelling from a barriered station. Hence why I don't tend to follow advice I've been given from some along the lines of "Don't check after X, as the barriers will have got them on the way through..." :roll:

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Our depot used to work a train and the same commuter got on at the same station every day. He was very distinctive. The amusing thing was how he managed to fall into a deep coma like sleep within seconds of sitting down. Vigorous banging on the seat frame, window, shouting and any other approved method was required to get him to "wake up", which involved this huge dramatic performance with eye rubbing and pretend panic that he might have missed his stop, as though he had been asleep for hours rather than minutes. He always had a ticket, but it was normally the return portion of an open return which he didn't want stamped, so he could no doubt use it again.

Lots of other regulars on the same journey used open returns and there was much tutting and huffing when I insisted they took it out of the wallet so it could be stamped.

 

[muz379]

Seems to be the favourite trick amongst a small minority of those who commute just one or two stops down the line. I seem quite good at catching these people out, and likewise they seem to learn after a day or two. I'm also surprised that there are a few regular commuters who think that the sleeping trick works - and try it almost every day, just to avoid getting their ticket out (or purchasing one in a few cases).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just to add to what I've said above - the people you catch with a single each way around my patch are usually travelling from a barriered station. Hence why I don't tend to follow advice I've been given from some along the lines of "Don't check after X, as the barriers will have got them on the way through..." :roll:

Ill check from a gated station the barriers dont stop people who have got off other trains and got on yours .And you never know when the barriers are working or not unless you actually go and check . When Im at Manchester Piccadilly or Victoria I might as well consider the barriers not there because both places are like a sieve anyway .

As for those that are "asleep" I usually find a bang of the T key on the nearest bit of metal or window is enough to wake them from their ever so deep sleep . Or at least make them open up their eyes to see what the noise is about .

 

[iainbhx]

I had the opposite experience the other day, I nearly always get the 17:21 Crewe-New Street and it's the only service I get of the four per day which is more often inspected than not. I keep my season in my shirt pocket and it usually gets a very cursory look, yesterday I was told, I saw yours on Monday, sir, it's still valid. I must be more memorable than I think.

I am, however, convinced you could get through the New Street gate line with a laundry ticket.

 

[185]

Our depot used to work a train and the same commuter got on at the same station every day. He was very distinctive. The amusing thing was how he managed to fall into a deep coma like sleep within seconds of sitting down. Vigorous banging on the seat frame, window, shouting and any other approved method was required to get him to "wake up", which involved this huge dramatic performance with eye rubbing and pretend panic that he might have missed his stop, as though he had been asleep for hours rather than minutes. He always had a ticket, but it was normally the return portion of an open return which he didn't want stamped, so he could no doubt use it again.

Lots of other regulars on the same journey used open returns and there was much tutting and huffing when I insisted they took it out of the wallet so it could be stamped.

The same idiot (Manchester-Leeds) who went to BTP to complain, BTP then interviewed me under caution for shaking the seat frame, as 'that may be an assault'. Wtf?!?!

Utter stupidity by BTP Leeds. Was thrown out/NFA in the event, but should never have got that far.

 

[thelongestroad]

I did get asked a couple of months ago by someone (who was awake anyway) if I was allowed to touch him if he was asleep to ask for his ticket.

I suspect the answer is no, but I still do it occasionally. No doubt it would be considered assault and I would get in trouble for it...

 

[muz379]

Our depot used to work a train and the same commuter got on at the same station every day. He was very distinctive. The amusing thing was how he managed to fall into a deep coma like sleep within seconds of sitting down. Vigorous banging on the seat frame, window, shouting and any other approved method was required to get him to "wake up", which involved this huge dramatic performance with eye rubbing and pretend panic that he might have missed his stop, as though he had been asleep for hours rather than minutes. He always had a ticket, but it was normally the return portion of an open return which he didn't want stamped, so he could no doubt use it again.

Lots of other regulars on the same journey used open returns and there was much tutting and huffing when I insisted they took it out of the wallet so it could be stamped.

I love it when they show you an open return and go to put it away sharpish , and then you unleash a sharpie or other suitable permanent marker from your shirt pocket and smile like not so quick I need to draw some squiggles on your lovely improvised season ticket .

 

[6Gman]

I did get asked a couple of months ago by someone (who was awake anyway) if I was allowed to touch him if he was asleep to ask for his ticket.

I suspect the answer is no, but I still do it occasionally. No doubt it would be considered assault and I would get in trouble for it...

It's ironic. Many years ago I was kicked to the ground by a local ne'er-do-well. The Police told me it was a 'common assault' and nothing to do with them as I wasn't injured. Funny old world ....

 

[muz379]

The same idiot (Manchester-Leeds) who went to BTP to complain, BTP then interviewed me under caution for shaking the seat frame, as 'that may be an assault'. Wtf?!?!

Utter stupidity by BTP Leeds. Was thrown out/NFA in the event, but should never have got that far.

I can understand them coming to have a word with you if an allegation had been made as they have a duty to act when someone reports a crime , however to interview you under caution for shaking a seat seems a bit extreme ,highlighted by the fact that it was NFA in the end

It's ironic. Many years ago I was kicked to the ground by a local ne'er-do-well. The Police told me it was a 'common assault' and nothing to do with them as I wasn't injured. Funny old world ....

Think they make it up to suit themselves sometimes . Im sure every time I drive over the speed limit(not very often before we go down that road) I dont Hurt anybody but they would still pull me .

 

[trentside]

I did get asked a couple of months ago by someone (who was awake anyway) if I was allowed to touch him if he was asleep to ask for his ticket.

I suspect the answer is no, but I still do it occasionally. No doubt it would be considered assault and I would get in trouble for it...

We're told to try other methods first, then get a passenger or another member of staff to act as witness, explaining that you're going to gently prod the person to see if they're alive or not. Seems a lot of hassle to me, so T-Key on the seat or table it is!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Some guy next to me on a Bristol - Weymouth train today appeared to be in a coma so the guard just gave the panel next to him a good tapping with his t-key, which seemed to do the trick.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Some guy next to me on a Bristol - Weymouth train today appeared to be in a coma so the guard just gave the panel next to him a good tapping with his t-key, which seemed to do the trick.

That's what I do. Bash the seat frame / window / nearest bit of solid train with my T Key. If that fails, loudly announcing you'll have to get the police / ambulance normally does the trick.

 

[Temple Meads]

Just announce loudly to the whole carriage that "this poor passenger appears to be in a coma! Does anyone have any medical experience?", I bet they'll wake up soon enough then

 

[Scott M]

I don't mind showing my ticket.

I like it because it means the fare dodgers are going to get caught, or at least have their journey interrupted.

 

[muz379]

We're told to try other methods first, then get a passenger or another member of staff to act as witness, explaining that you're going to gently prod the person to see if they're alive or not. Seems a lot of hassle to me, so T-Key on the seat or table it is!

Ive always found banging the T key works .
If It didnt work Id not progress onto touching them . The way I see it , I would rather they got away with the fare or was over carried than deal with the problems that could be caused by a passenger claiming you assaulted them .

Unless the company wants to clearly and coherently give me assurances that I am entitled to give someone a light tap on the shoulder and fit all areas of the trains I work with CCTV I will refrain from touching passengers for a fare .

When It comes to clearing drunk off trains that are going empty to depot I always make sure I have either the driver or platform staff there as a witness and will try the T key on the window , table , chair or anything else close first .

 

[thelongestroad]

I had better retire my prodding pen then....