Cascading: What train will go where after electrification?

[iantherev]

One I am watching is 158s going to the Barnstaple line and being replaced on their current duties by 165s which is due to happen after GWML outer suburban electrification.

As 158s dont go to Exmouth that will mean an hourly 158 from Barnstaple to St James Park and an Hourly 158/9 from Exeter St Davids to Waterloo. Will the obvious solution of a transfer of the Barnstaple line to SWT with through services happen?

158s replaced by 165s? That will be a downgrade for Cardiff - Portsmouth. Otherwise there are only 2 2 car 158s at present.

 

[WarrenTManager]

What will be the approximate remaining life span of the 158s and 159s by 2020? If it's very little, then the 222s could be moved to SWT to take over the Waterloo-Exeter route (assuming that electrification of that route is not in the pipeline by then).

If 22x's are consolidated to form longer trains, could the spare end coaches be converted to all standard class, with a normal toilet in some, a disabled toilet in others and used as two-car DMUs (possibly replacing some 15xs which might be knackered by that point)?

The forthcoming class 15x C6 overhauls include PRM so that's beyond 2020. I would guess 2 more C6 cycles so 12-15 years.....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The forthcoming class 15x C6 overhauls include PRM so that's beyond 2020. I would guess 2 more C6 cycles so 12-15 years.....

Is a C6 a very heavy overhaul where the coaches are stripped down to the bare shell, and bogies stripped down to individual components for a thorough examination and repairs as needed?

 

[21C101]

If the Barney branch should be handed over to SWT simply because it will be worked by 158s then why have FGW retained the Cardiff-Pompey route?
What train works the route has no bearing on which franchise operates the route. :roll:

Oh and this weeks talk is that the 158s will work a semi fast Barney to Axminster service, giving Exeter to Axminster a half hourly service. There will also be a separate Barney to Exeter stopping service giving the Barney line 2 trains per hour, how that works with the (lack of) signalling on the line is still open to debate.

Idea of handing over Barnstaple - Exeter to SWT is so that it becomes Barnstaple - Waterloo by joining the two services together.

To run the Barnstaple Axminster service you describe would need additional track and signalling between Exeter and Axminster as well as Exeter Barnstaple so it looks like flying pig territory to me.

With stagecoach also running the 10/20 minute interval bus service from Barnstaple Station to Ilfracombe/Bideford SWT running a Waterloo Barnstaple service would have IMHO quite a lot of benefits for North Devon

 

[Olaf]

A document worth reading to help understand the current strategy:
http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/Rolling Stock Strategy February 2014.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

158s replaced by 165s? That will be a downgrade for Cardiff - Portsmouth. Otherwise there are only 2 2 car 158s at present.

FGW were originally due to get 8 x new 4 car DMUs for Cardiff-Portsmouth so I imagine the revised plan will be for 16 x 2 car 165s to be allocated to that route, released by EMUs released on Thames Valley.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

FGW were originally due to get 8 x new 4 car DMUs for Cardiff-Portsmouth so I imagine the revised plan will be for 16 x 2 car 165s to be allocated to that route, released by EMUs released on Thames Valley.

There will probably be a fight to get the air-con-fitted 3-car 166s on selected routes.
There are 21x166s and 37x165/1s (17x3-car, 20x2-car).
Then there's the issue of diesels under the wires west of Bath so they may not reach Cardiff.
Some will stay around Reading for North Downs and other unwired lines in the area (maybe also East-West initially).

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably it's very much possible that the cascaded 165s could be be fitted with air conditioning and 2+2 seating if the TOC/ROSCO/DfT come to an agreement that that would be a good thing to do (never mind what passengers want)

As an aside, there'a only 16 165/1 3-car units- 115 was in the Ladbroke Grove disaster.

 

[dk1]

Rumours that Northern are to loan two units to sister Abellio company Greater Anglia from late 2014. This will be the death knell to the loco-hauled short set. Already seems accepted that DBSO/37 combo will no longer happen. Wonder if more 319s are heading North to compensate?

 

[WarrenTManager]

Is a C6 a very heavy overhaul where the coaches are stripped down to the bare shell, and bogies stripped down to individual components for a thorough examination and repairs as needed?

C4 in the current regime for bogies. Every 500,000 miles. Takes a 159 about 18 months to cover. The engines and transmissions are normally exchanged for overhauled examples.

C6 is the body and interior overhaul. Some mechanical work may be specified. A repaint or vinyl (if your TOC uses them) is usually carried out.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If the 165's do replace the 158's on the Cardiff - Portsmouth route, I really do wonder how FGW will "sell" this to passengers considering the 165's will very much be a downgrade compared to the 158's (in terms of passenger comfort etc).

 

[jopsuk]

Only if they're not refurbed. Give them air conditioning, 2+2 seating in a suitable layout (with tables), plug sockets and wifi and watch passengers coo over the "new" trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

Give them air conditioning, 2+2 seating in a suitable layout (with tables), plug sockets and wifi and watch passengers coo over the "new" trains.

Exactly. I suspect that a class 166 in particular could be refurbished to be similar to a Turbostar internally.

 

[northwichcat]

Rumours that Northern are to loan two units to sister Abellio company Greater Anglia from late 2014. This will be the death knell to the loco-hauled short set. Already seems accepted that DBSO/37 combo will no longer happen. Wonder if more 319s are heading North to compensate?

The terms of Northern's Direct Award are such that they will gain 14 x 319s as additional capacity by December 2015 and they will not give up any existing DMUs or EMUs unless they receive a like-for-like replacement for them.

Northern are expected to have 2 daily class 319 diagrams on Liverpool-Manchester Airport from the December 2014 timetable change. That will release 2 x 2 car Sprinters. One of the released Sprinters has been guaranteed for extra capacity on the Bolton corridor, the other had been guaranteed for a service on the Todmorden curve but apparently the infrastructure won't be ready to provide that service until February 2015, not that Northern will have problems finding other diagrams which need extra capacity! From what I understand they won't have enough crews trained on 319s to switch all Liverpool-Manchester services from December 2014 even if they get more 319s from December and they can't accelerate the training program under the franchise conditions which strictly control costs. Although maybe a loan between the December 14 and May 15 timetable changes could be agreed if Anglia would fund the acceleration of the training program?

Claire Perry has made reference to Northern receiving additional 319s as a way of compensating TPE for losing the 170/3s. However, once Northern have 14 x 319s there aren't really any DMUs that can be freed up before the end of the current franchise. The only way I think such a solution could work is for Northern to get an additional 2 x 319s, then to sub-lease 2 x 323s to LM, who then sublease 2 x 350s to TPE to ensure 185s aren't used on Scottish services.

 

[jopsuk]

Exactly. I suspect that a class 166 in particular could be refurbished to be similar to a Turbostar internally.

Well we know that 165s can be fitted with air conditioning, as the Chiltern fleet have been. Seats in all classes can be changed. Wi fi should be relatively easy. Power sockets may be more tricky- depends if the power system has the capacity or could have the capacity.

 

[Olaf]

Idea of handing over Barnstaple - Exeter to SWT is so that it becomes Barnstaple - Waterloo by joining the two services together.

To run the Barnstaple Axminster service you describe would need additional track and signalling between Exeter and Axminster as well as Exeter Barnstaple so it looks like flying pig territory to me.

With stagecoach also running the 10/20 minute interval bus service from Barnstaple Station to Ilfracombe/Bideford SWT running a Waterloo Barnstaple service would have IMHO quite a lot of benefits for North Devon

The current plan is for Barnstaple to be cleared for 165/166 by mid-2017: Project W009, Page 103:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/cp5-delivery-plan/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan.pdf

The above also indicates that class 319s will be assigned to the Thames Valley services, though all plans are subject to change, and updated quarterly.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Only if they're not refurbed. Give them air conditioning, 2+2 seating in a suitable layout (with tables), plug sockets and wifi and watch passengers coo over the "new" trains.

Is all of that actually likely though?
Because IMO it would need pretty much all of that to be worth it considering you lose one of the nicer things about the 158's (the layout of the doors).

 

[dk1]

Although maybe a loan between the December 14 and May 15 timetable changes could be agreed if Anglia would fund the acceleration of the training program?

Thanks. I will watch this with interest. Only heard this yesterday so will try to delve further when im back at work.

 

[corfield]

I was wondering on some cascade ideas...

1) For c2c's requirement for 17x 4 car units, presumably to work with their 357 fleet - why not switch SE's 15x 375/7s which is pretty close in numbers and are I assume very similar build wise?

2) South Eastern could take the 365s from Great Northern, refited with shoes as 465s? Depending on what happens to the GN 365 (& 317/321 fleets fate?) post Thameslink and new stock (replace all?, will EC IEPs take on some fast routes?) then these could also provide the strengthening for 12 car running.

3) 319s as Already equipped DV types seem suited to retain in the South to aid a rolling DC-AC changeover. 377s could thus be released for TPE & Northern. Alternatively 319s retained in TSGN could release the 455s to SWT in lieu of it's planned suburban stock purchase?

4) Is it worth grabbing all the 15?x 170/3s into Chiltern (TP, FSR, XC), with it's 172s going to LM (which with additional 350/3 & ultimately /4s on electrified Chase services would release 170s from that and Snow Hill support - to cascade onwards). This is a bit convulted - but as an equipment fleet manager I look at the UK's rolling stock apportionment and shudder at the costs incurred through duplication, multiple micro fleets and lack of type centralisation (when it could be done - accepting not 100% is possible.

Anyway, some thoughts.

 

[Qwerty133]

4) Is it worth grabbing all the 15?x 170/3s into Chiltern (TP, FSR, XC), with it's 172s going to LM (which with additional 350/3 & ultimately /4s on electrified Chase services would release 170s from that and Snow Hill support - to cascade onwards). This is a bit convulted - but as an equipment fleet manager I look at the UK's rolling stock apportionment and shudder at the costs incurred through duplication, multiple micro fleets and lack of type centralisation (when it could be done - accepting not 100% is possible.

Anyway, some thoughts.

NO...
Chiltern are already gaining the TPE 170s. Scotrail stock should basically be treated as though it doesn't exsist for this kind of thread as it is not movable until after the Scottish government no longer want it. XC need more not less trains and although them 2 170s are non standard they are needed more at XC than elsewhere.

 

[Manchester77]

I was wondering on some cascade ideas...

1) For c2c's requirement for 17x 4 car units, presumably to work with their 357 fleet - why not switch SE's 15x 375/7s which is pretty close in numbers and are I assume very similar build wise?

The 68 additional carriages are part of C2Cs franchise commitments and so that'd fall 8 carriages short. Taking 375s off SE also removes a key chunk of their mainline fleet and opens a whole set of issues too.

2) South Eastern could take the 365s from Great Northern, refited with shoes as 465s? Depending on what happens to the GN 365 (& 317/321 fleets fate?) post Thameslink and new stock (replace all?, will EC IEPs take on some fast routes?) then these could also provide the strengthening for 12 car running.

Don't forget that the TSGN ITT stated that a cascade of 377s was to occur to SE during the new franchise which would remove the need for the influx of 365s. What would make more sense, since the current plan laid out by GoVia shows half the 365s cascaded away (TPE?) and half retained for GN peak strengtheners, would be for TSGN to retain all 12 317/1s as well as gain the 9 317/7s and use these trains for peak strengtheners. Then cascade the former 321s to Anglia to replace the 317/7s as well as the 321/9s from Northern which should be replaced by 319s. This would then allow for all 365s to be cascaded away to TPE and used on North TP services thus avoiding separating the fleet.

3) 319s as Already equipped DV types seem suited to retain in the South to aid a rolling DC-AC changeover. 377s could thus be released for TPE & Northern. Alternatively 319s retained in TSGN could release the 455s to SWT in lieu of it's planned suburban stock purchase?

But the 377s already have the dual voltage equipment fitted and removal is pretty simple and has been done before cascading to northern. The SWT 455s and TSGN 455s are I believe very different trains, firstly the SWT units are going to have completely different traction packages soon as the EE507s are replaced by some new fangled stuff.

4) Is it worth grabbing all the 15?x 170/3s into Chiltern (TP, FSR, XC), with it's 172s going to LM (which with additional 350/3 & ultimately /4s on electrified Chase services would release 170s from that and Snow Hill support - to cascade onwards). This is a bit convulted - but as an equipment fleet manager I look at the UK's rolling stock apportionment and shudder at the costs incurred through duplication, multiple micro fleets and lack of type centralisation (when it could be done - accepting not 100% is possible.
Anyway, some thoughts.

Don't forget TSGN needs extra carriages (16/18 iirc) for its DMU services, I think they want 170/3s too! XC would lose trains in that plan which isn't ideal since they don't gain anything. Furthermore the new Scotrail franchise wants plugs, wifi and AC I think all things which I'd imagine would be easier to fit to a 170 rather than a 156 hence why it seems any units released from Scotrail would likely be sprinters before new stuff. I understand what you mean but in some cases centralisation isn't always necessary especially when it comes to things like subclasses - for example any 170s which Chiltern get are set to be converted to 168s, same with southern and 171s and to some extent SWT and 158s.

 

[corfield]

As I said, a few ideas.

c2c 8 carriages short is hardly a major worry, 2 units from 17. That could be made up from other 375 sub classes if really desperate.

I think I'd assumed all the 365s would go over to SE which would more than compensate for the 375/7s.

On the GN it would be a new fleet, ie all/more 387s (where their speed can be used unlike south of the thames). 321s to GA and 317s retired? But again, I thought EC IEPs would run some of the services FCC does now?

377s can of course do DV, but only some actually do. 319s already all do - main advantage would be removing 455s (which realistically cant) from the picture to have an entirely DV fleet. Granted all might be gone by AC conversion time anyway! DC to AC is something I think is a good idea, but cant see how it would be done in practice given the need to keep the system running, the impossibility of parallel and that even a handfull of changeovers are expensive and difficult. The complexity of the Southern Region defies a logic scheme for me !

Ref 170s, Scotrail could release a few as mentioned previously (presume they plan a new EMU order soon?). post ex Chiltern 172s, Chase and 350s LM should be able to release more 170 /5 &/6 than XC would have released 170/3s so actually XC could be strengthened - admittedly I didnt spell out that point.

If the LO 172s go to LM then their 150/153s could all be released with 17Xs on all DMU services.

 

[northwichcat]

3) 319s as Already equipped DV types seem suited to retain in the South to aid a rolling DC-AC changeover. 377s could thus be released for TPE & Northern. Alternatively 319s retained in TSGN could release the 455s to SWT in lieu of it's planned suburban stock purchase?

I think 377s to Northern is a good idea not because of your reasoning but because Northern really need a mix of 3 and 4 car EMUs and the 377s are a mix of 3 and 4 car EMUs. There is a proposal to shorten some 319s to 3 cars but no proposals about utilising the redundant centre cars.

 

[Manchester77]

As I said, a few ideas.

c2c 8 carriages short is hardly a major worry, 2 units from 17. That could be made up from other 375 sub classes if really desperate.

It is when it's part of the franchise commitment!

I think I'd assumed all the 365s would go over to SE which would more than compensate for the 375/7s.

Well you'd need something on GN to fill their planned peak strengthening duties hence why I suggested 317s which can be refurbished as shown with the demonstrator.

On the GN it would be a new fleet, ie all/more 387s (where their speed can be used unlike south of the thames). 321s to GA and 317s retired? But again, I thought EC IEPs would run some of the services FCC does now?

377/5s are planned to take over the GN services with 387s cascaded away (obviously not including the units which will be built for GatEx) 321s GA yes it's pretty much their natural home, but the 317s no they're good trains which can be utilised and refurbished to the demonstrator standard. I don't think there's plans for that to happen, commuter IEP is very much out the window.

377s can of course do DV, but only some actually do. 319s already all do - main advantage would be removing 455s (which realistically cant) from the picture to have an entirely DV fleet. Granted all might be gone by AC conversion time anyway! DC to AC is something I think is a good idea, but cant see how it would be done in practice given the need to keep the system running, the impossibility of parallel and that even a handfull of changeovers are expensive and difficult. The complexity of the Southern Region defies a logic scheme for me !

But the 319s already have the AC equipment for working elsewhere while the 377s mainly only have DC equipment with only a few with the useful AC. Southern is and always has been unique but that's sort of being lost as it's modernised - the new EMUs aren't made from recycled out slammers which is very unlike southern tradition.

If the LO 172s go to LM then their 150/153s could all be released with 17Xs on all DMU services.

The 153s play a key role in strengthening by forming several 170-153 diagrams so you'd want to keep the 153s for that. I think the LO 172s could fully replace the existing fleet on Bedford - Bletchley giving a capacity boost. The 150s go to northern and a few 153s (maybe release 3 of 8) could go to EMT.


Regarding the proposed 3 car 319s and what to do with the spare carriage, why not insert it into some more 319s creating some 5 car units which can be used to the proposed Blackpool service of transferred to northern. Obviously it'd make sense to change the lengths after re-tractioning but I think it'd be viable for 4 cars on most services, then 3+3 (6) car services on the busy lines which can't take 8 car and then 5 car on the longer distance electric workings.

 

[Suraggu]

London Overground Class 172's to Chiltern once Electrification has been completed and 378's appear.

London Midland release Class 150's to Northern once Walsall -Rugeley has been electrified and 350's plough the route releasing Class 170's for Bedford -Bletchley.

London Midland Class 153's reformed into Class 155's and sent to FGW.

First Great Western recieve Class 387's cascades from Thameslink releasing Class 165's and Class 166's to West Diagrams (We know Gauging work is being carried out in the west country). Small Class 166 Fleet for North Downs service.

Class 165/1 replace Class 150 which are sent to Northern to replace Class 142

FGW Class 153's reformed into Class 155's and with ex LM Class 153's reformed into class 155, class 143's released due to non DDA compliancy.

Class 158's released by Class 166's heading for Cardiff -Portsmouth Diagrams sent to Northern to help replace Class 142's.

Class 319's sent to Northern and small fleet to FGW for Bristol Metro -Cardiff service

 

[SpacePhoenix]

But the 319s already have the AC equipment for working elsewhere while the 377s mainly only have DC equipment with only a few with the useful AC. Southern is and always has been unique but that's sort of being lost as it's modernised - the new EMUs aren't made from recycled out slammers which is very unlike southern tradition.

If the 377s have all the internal wiring in place for AC then it shouldn't be too hard to convert them to dual voltage

 

[Manchester77]

If the 377s have all the internal wiring in place for AC then it shouldn't be too hard to convert them to dual voltage

Yes I know but the other user was talking about retaining the 319s in the South because they have DC gear and I was making the point that that can be easily removed however most 377s would need AC equipment fitting which defeats the objective for the reason proposed by the other user.

 

[Qwerty133]

Few points on the last few posts:
170s don't fit onto the platforms on Bedford to Bletchley.
LM could release the 150s when the chase is electrified, but I believe it's already planned for them to remain LM units for the time being. They however couldn't lose both the 150s and 153s as they are the only units cleared for Bedford to Bletchley and Coventry to Nuneaton.
EMT will need to gain some units from somewhere.
143s are being made DDA compliment so there's no reason for them to be withdrawn.

 

[Suraggu]

Few points on the last few posts:
170s don't fit onto the platforms on Bedford to Bletchley.
LM could release the 150s when the chase is electrified, but I believe it's already planned for them to remain LM units for the time being. They however couldn't lose both the 150s and 153s as they are the only units cleared for Bedford to Bletchley and Coventry to Nuneaton.
EMT will need to gain some units from somewhere.
143s are being made DDA compliment so there's no reason for them to be withdrawn.

I didn't realise Poterbrook has given the go ahead for the 143 DDA work.
Coventry -Nuneaton is being electrified (Part of the electric spine project IIRC) so a shuttle electric unit could replace the 153 for other work.

Why won't a two car Class 170 fit? Not even with SDO and isn't the Beford -Bletchley part of the East/West rail project and platforms along the whole route will be able to take 4 car units? That route will have a Class 168/172 gauge as that looks like the rolling stock along the route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Coventry -Nuneaton is being electrified (Part of the electric spine project IIRC) so a shuttle electric unit could replace the 153 for other work.
Why won't a two car Class 170 fit? Not even with SDO and isn't the Beford -Bletchley part of the East/West rail project and platforms along the whole route will be able to take 4 car units? That route will have a Class 168/172 gauge as that looks like the rolling stock along the route.

Coventry-Nuneaton (and Electric Spine generally, including Bedford-Bletchley upgrade) is a development project and not committed by NR.
East-West is so far only the Bletchley-Oxford reopening/upgrade.