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December 2014 TT changes

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northwichcat

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When do LM start extending these Crewe to Euston services to Liverpool with a New St to Liverpool hourly running hourly to Preston instead as I thought LM were keen on this pattern a few years back.

ORR told them to resubmit their application at the next WCML recast. Then Network Rail came along and added some other proposals to be done alongside it:
1. LM to takeover Manchester-Stoke stopper and to extend it to Birmingham via Stone.
2. Divert Crewe-London away from Stone.
3. Divert half of Manchester XC services via Crewe.

So I don't expect it to be done before the next LM franchise is let now.
 
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MK Tom

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There's just the one each way: in the morning there's the 1K14 0525 Blackpool North to Crewe, which joins 1R13 0448 Holyhead to Euston to arrive in Euston at 0834. This replaces the current 0535 from Lancaster.

In the evening, there's 1P21 1633 Euston to Blackpool North, which currently terminates at Preston. In both cases the train runs ECS from/to Crewe CS.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The LM changes are reasonably extensive, particularly in the evening. In the morning, the main change is the addition of two non-stop trains from Northampton to Euston: the 0518 Crewe-Euston and the 0633 New St-Euston both run non-stop from Northampton to Euston, crossing to the up fast at Hanslope Jn, the latter with a very impressive timing of 46 minutes.

In the evening peak the 1746 and 1849 from Euston now running to Crewe, the former via Weedon though the latter still goes via Northampton. (The 1746 doesn't call at Stone, Kidsgrove or Alsager, so I'm guessing it's an 8-car.) These are followed by a 1749 and a 1852 to Birmingham via Northampton.

Furthermore, the 1713 and 1813, which were 100mph paths, have been replaced by two pairs of 110mph paths: there's a 1713 to New St, first stop MK, followed by a 1716 to Northampton. Similarly, there's a 1813 to New St (which is perhaps unique in calling in platform 6 at MKC and crossing at Hanslope!) followed by a 1816 to New St, which ends up in New St about 20 mins behind the 1813.

All told the changes make the fast lines out of Euston in the evening one of the busiest mixed-traffic timetables in the country - on Fridays, when there are two Virgin extras, I count 16 fast line departures from Euston between 1800 and 1859, up from 14 at present. Is that perhaps the most departures on a single track from a London terminus in one hour?

Thanks for all of this.

Will those LM services replace Northampton's only Virgin service then?
 

TheJRB

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Glad to see the January times already on OpenTrainTimes. I'm pleased to see the new 09:32 Ramsgate to St Pancras on there (10:10 from Ashford) which will not call at Ebbsfleet and from Ashford will reach Stratford in 28 minutes and St Pancras in 36. Great news and it will certainly ease the crowding which seems to occur between 09:45 and 11:00.

But on the more disappointing side, no mention of any new fast services via Tonbridge and more of a let down still, the 08:53 Charing Cross to Ashford fast service becomes an ECS move!

Not all bad though, Ashford is getting another Brussels service at 09:28.
 
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IrishDave

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Talking of changes on Southeastern, due to the works at Rochester there is less capacity to start/terminate trains there. As a result two up trains in the morning and two down trains in the evening that previously started/terminated at Rochester are extended to Sheerness, *not* calling at Sittingbourne (i.e. using the third side of the triangle). They are:
2P58 0622 Sheerness-Victoria (arr 0755)
2K60 0700 Sheerness-Victoria (arr 0842)
2K30 1703 Victoria-Sheerness (arr 1846)
2K36 1824 Victoria-Sheerness (arr 2003)

This should provide a slightly more sociable opportunity for track-bashers to bash Sittingbourne Western-Middle Junctions (though the existing two services continue to run).
 

WelshBluebird

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Hi all,

Couldn't find a thread to cover this so decided to start one. Here's something to go on for starters.

I have just had a look at OTT's database for Cardiff Queen Street (CDQ) after the December changes take effect and it seems to be based around CDQ having 5 platforms in service. From the snippet I looked at the idea seems to be this:

Platform 1: Cardiff Bay - Cardiff Queen Street
Platform 2: Bargoed & Rhymney - Cardiff - Penarth
Platform 3: Merthyr / Aberdare / Treherbert - Cardiff - Barry - Barry Island / Bridgend
Platform 4: Trains to Coryton, Rhymney & Bargoed
Platform 5: Trains to Merthyr, Aberdare & Treherbert

... which seems to be the case if this is correct:
http://www.opentraintimes.com/locat...on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

HTIOI,
Dave

Does anyone who uses CDQ frequently have an idea if the station looks like the current work will be ready for this timetable change?

Also does anyone know what the layout will be?
Presumably, Platform 1 will be the new bay platform, Platform 5 will be the new through platform (the rebuild of the old disused platform) and the other platforms will remain the same? In which case it will seem a bit of a pain for Cardiff Central bound trains to be spread across two different platform Islands. Surely it would make more sense for Cardiff Central bound services to use the current platforms 3 and 4? And then the other valleys services to be shared between the new Platform 5 and the existing platform 2. Or would the signalling not allow that?
 

headshot119

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You are correct in your numbering assumption.

Platform 5 certainly looks like it's ready for use, apart from the lack of a signal at the end of it (2356 signal).

Not sure about platform 1, haven't been over the bay side for a while. (Though I'll see if I remember to look tomorrow).

As for the use of platforms, the signalling doesn't allow for what you want, and nor does the point work at Queen Street North Junction. People will just have to get used to checking which platform the next Central train is going from if they are not going beyond Central.
 
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PHILIPE

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You are correct in your numbering assumption.

Platform 5 certainly looks like it's ready for use, apart from the lack of a signal at the end of it (2356 signal).

Not sure about platform 1, haven't been over the bay side for a while. (Though I'll see if I remember to look tomorrow).

As for the use of platforms, the signalling doesn't allow for what you want, and nor does the point work at Queen Street North Junction. People will just have to get used to checking which platform the next Central train is going from if they are not going beyond Central.

When you mention people will have to check which platform reminds me of Dalmuir in Scotland with a similar layout. Trains to Glasgow could go from any of three Platforms and trains westward from any of two. Fine, but there were no CIS at the station to inform intending passengers. Now rectified.
At Queen St, the allocation of platforms has been decided by which route trains take at the North End of the station. In addition to the signalling constraints mentioned, one does not trains crossing at the north end throat.
 

WelshBluebird

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You are correct in your numbering assumption.

Platform 5 certainly looks like it's ready for use, apart from the lack of a signal at the end of it (2356 signal).

Not sure about platform 1, haven't been over the bay side for a while. (Though I'll see if I remember to look tomorrow).

As for the use of platforms, the signalling doesn't allow for what you want, and nor does the point work at Queen Street North Junction. People will just have to get used to checking which platform the next Central train is going from if they are not going beyond Central.

I'll have to have a look when I pass through in a few weeks time :).
Ahh fair enough makes sense then. I guess the distance is short enough and the frequency of services is large enough that it doesn't really matter.
 

ryan125hst

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Platform 5 certainly looks like it's ready for use, apart from the lack of a signal at the end of it (2356 signal)

Looking on Realtime Trains, it appears that platform 5 is already in use. Just look at today's trains and platform usage compared to the booked platforms tomorrow.

I've only been to Cardiff once and have never traveled by train there, so i don't know which signal you are referring to, but this information suggests that it is being used.
 

louis97

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Looking on Realtime Trains, it appears that platform 5 is already in use. Just look at today's trains and platform usage compared to the booked platforms tomorrow.

I've only been to Cardiff once and have never traveled by train there, so i don't know which signal you are referring to, but this information suggests that it is being used.

Ignore the platforming information on those trains, the Trust SMART data looks to be incorrect for some reason. (Seems to be a reoccurring problem looking at the history of the services at that time of day) Trust SMART data is showing instead of TD data for some of the valleys at present because although data has been recorded for the new signalling it is currently not live on the main website. Just had a look at the raw data and it suggests they used Platform 4, signal 2892 (at the end of platform 4).
 
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Philip

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Why are TPE diverting so many of their late evening/overnight Blackpool services via Chat Moss? The 22:00 Barrow service is scheduled to go this way as is the 22:29 Blackpool service. Don't know what TPE think they're playing at further reducing services to Bolton and Chorley. Route knowledge isn't an excuse because the early morning Blackpool - Manchester trains are also booked via Chat Moss.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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Why are TPE diverting so many of their late evening/overnight Blackpool services via Chat Moss? The 22:00 Barrow service is scheduled to go this way as is the 22:29 Blackpool service. Don't know what TPE think they're playing at further reducing services to Bolton and Chorley. Route knowledge isn't an excuse because the early morning Blackpool - Manchester trains are also booked via Chat Moss.

Perhaps there are lots of overnight possessions looming to start on electrification work?
 

headshot119

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Ignore the platforming information on those trains, the Trust SMART data looks to be incorrect for some reason. (Seems to be a reoccurring problem looking at the history of the services at that time of day) Trust SMART data is showing instead of TD data for some of the valleys at present because although data has been recorded for the new signalling it is currently not live on the main website. Just had a look at the raw data and it suggests they used Platform 4, signal 2892 (at the end of platform 4).

Definitely won't have used platform 5, it's not open yet, although the signal has now been put up at the end of it.

It's still missing PIS, and the entrance is currently fenced off to the public.

I would say it looks like both platforms will be ready for the timetable change in December.
 

DaveHarries

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Looking on Realtime Trains, it appears that platform 5 is already in use. Just look at today's trains and platform usage compared to the booked platforms tomorrow.

I've only been to Cardiff once and have never traveled by train there, so i don't know which signal you are referring to, but this information suggests that it is being used.
You are correct in your numbering assumption.

Platform 5 certainly looks like it's ready for use, apart from the lack of a signal at the end of it (2356 signal).
I was in Cardiff yesterday and passed Queen Street station on foot. I looked and, from the opposite side of the road, I thought I could see a signal for Platform 5 as it looked to be on the Queen Street side of the island canopy. The signal in question had a route indicator on it.

Dave
 

headshot119

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As I alluded to in the post above yours Dave that's indeed the new 2356 signal, with a theater indicator. "L" for a route set for the Up Llandaff towards Radyr via Cathays, and "R" for a rotue set for the Up Rhymney towards heath junction.
 

ryan125hst

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Ignore the platforming information on those trains, the Trust SMART data looks to be incorrect for some reason. (Seems to be a reoccurring problem looking at the history of the services at that time of day) Trust SMART data is showing instead of TD data for some of the valleys at present because although data has been recorded for the new signalling it is currently not live on the main website. Just had a look at the raw data and it suggests they used Platform 4, signal 2892 (at the end of platform 4).

headshot119 said:
Definitely won't have used platform 5, it's not open yet, although the signal has now been put up at the end of it.

It's still missing PIS, and the entrance is currently fenced off to the public.

I would say it looks like both platforms will be ready for the timetable change in December.

Ahh, I see. It's just a case of some inaccurate information making Realtime Trains a bit misleading! What's the difference between Trust SMART and TD Data? Why is wrong anyway? Just a case of a technical problem as a result of the new infrastructure being added?
 

louis97

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Ahh, I see. It's just a case of some inaccurate information making Realtime Trains a bit misleading! What's the difference between Trust SMART and TD Data? Why is wrong anyway? Just a case of a technical problem as a result of the new infrastructure being added?

Trust SMART data is entirely outside of RTTs control and is derived by Network Rail, where as TD (Train Describer) data is from RTTs own system monitoring the movement of TDs. Although unless changed specifically the data used to generate both a Trust SMART report by Network Rail and a TD report by RTT is exactly the same.

I don't know what is wrong with Trust SMART at that time of the morning, it just seems to be doing it every morning, if you look at Queen Street this morning it has shown the incorrect platform for the same services again - no idea why!
 

Class 170101

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There's just the one each way: in the morning there's the 1K14 0525 Blackpool North to Crewe, which joins 1R13 0448 Holyhead to Euston to arrive in Euston at 0834. This replaces the current 0535 from Lancaster.

Lancaster is instead served by starting the current 05:30 Preston to Euston Pendolino service back at Lancaster at 05:13.
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/P50690/2014-12-15
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why are TPE diverting so many of their late evening/overnight Blackpool services via Chat Moss? The 22:00 Barrow service is scheduled to go this way as is the 22:29 Blackpool service. Don't know what TPE think they're playing at further reducing services to Bolton and Chorley. Route knowledge isn't an excuse because the early morning Blackpool - Manchester trains are also booked via Chat Moss.

Rules of the Route Change Section 4 from December 2014
Between Windsor Bridge Jn and Bolton
Blocked Monday to Thursday Nights 22:40 to 05:40 Tuesday to Friday mornings and on Friday nights from 23:45 to 05:40 Saturday.

Between Bolton and Preston Trains to Wigan unaffected
Blocked Monday to Thursday Nights 20:35 to 06:00 Tuesday to Friday mornings and on Friday Nights from 00:15 to 05:15 Saturday (5 hrs)

This I would suggest has electrification work written all over it. Buses should be provided in lieu.
 

ryan125hst

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Trust SMART data is entirely outside of RTTs control and is derived by Network Rail, where as TD (Train Describer) data is from RTTs own system monitoring the movement of TDs. Although unless changed specifically the data used to generate both a Trust SMART report by Network Rail and a TD report by RTT is exactly the same.

I don't know what is wrong with Trust SMART at that time of the morning, it just seems to be doing it every morning, if you look at Queen Street this morning it has shown the incorrect platform for the same services again - no idea why!

Thanks for that. It's strange how it's recording incorrect information. Are you aware of this happening anywhere else?
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks for that. It's strange how it's recording incorrect information. Are you aware of this happening anywhere else?

A few weeks ago wasn't there a report that some sidings at Dorking had been brought into use that quoted RTT, but the evidence on the ground was that the train had not used the sidings in question. I think that was explained away as a data error of some sort...
 
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Thanks for that. It's strange how it's recording incorrect information. Are you aware of this happening anywhere else?

Sometimes RTT gets the platforms at Peterborough wrong - it claims that FCC services sit in Platform 3 which is the new through platform whilst an EC service is passing through. In practice this can't happen otherwise there would be a mess.
 

thealexweb

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Why are TPE diverting so many of their late evening/overnight Blackpool services via Chat Moss? The 22:00 Barrow service is scheduled to go this way as is the 22:29 Blackpool service. Don't know what TPE think they're playing at further reducing services to Bolton and Chorley. Route knowledge isn't an excuse because the early morning Blackpool - Manchester trains are also booked via Chat Moss.

Why don't Transpennine run via Atherton instead (Presuming the work going on is beyond Salford Crescent)? This method retains route knowledge and allows Salford Crescent to be retained as a station stop. Also like what happened during the six week blockade, why are Wigan North West (for Bolton) and Leyland (for Chorley) not being added as substitute stops?
 
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Class 170101

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Why don't Transpennine run via Atherton instead (Presuming the work going on is beyond Salford Crescent)? This method retains route knowledge and allows Salford Crescent to be retained as a station stop. Also like what happened during the six week blockade, why are Wigan North West (for Bolton) and Leyland (for Chorley) not being added as substitute stops?

TPE may not have the Track Access rights to stop any trains (beyond what they already have) at these stations. Northern could claim revenue abstraction.
Secondly the path may only work with TPE non-stopping those stations, TPE cannot just create a path that suits itself without regard to other operators on the diverted routes. These operators will get preference if their paths are unaltered by these works so TPE must bid for a path in whats called 'white space'
 

dvboy

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Most obvious new services round here are the VT services to/from Shrewsbury.

1R21 (currently 0724 WVH-EUS) will start at Shrewsbury at 0639, having arrived ECS from Barton u/ Needwood (d 0430) as 5J21 - at present it's 5R21 which comes from Oxley (d 0711).
 

thealexweb

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TPE may not have the Track Access rights to stop any trains (beyond what they already have) at these stations. Northern could claim revenue abstraction.
Secondly the path may only work with TPE non-stopping those stations, TPE cannot just create a path that suits itself without regard to other operators on the diverted routes. These operators will get preference if their paths are unaltered by these works so TPE must bid for a path in whats called 'white space'

Transpennine had no difficulty increasing its stopping frequency at Wigan North West and Leyland during the Chorley blockade and even went as far as calling at Euxton Balshaw Lane which it is never normally scheduled to call at.

It would be great if closer to the time Transpennine explained why it has made the new timetable how it is and what has been done to minimize disruption to passengers.
 

dannypye9999

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I think the Blackpool to Euston starts a little bit too early (0525). If it couples up with a service from Holyhead at Crewe then could it not be coupled up with a later service?
 

dk1

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I think the Blackpool to Euston starts a little bit too early (0525). If it couples up with a service from Holyhead at Crewe then could it not be coupled up with a later service?

Replacing the Lancaster. Next one at Crewe is already a double from Holyhead/Wrexham. Also the next London service from Preston is a Pendo on the 04.28 ex-Glc.
 

dvboy

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Most obvious new services round here are the VT services to/from Shrewsbury.

1R21 (currently 0724 WVH-EUS) will start at Shrewsbury at 0639, having arrived ECS from Barton u/ Needwood (d 0430) as 5J21 - at present it's 5R21 which comes from Oxley (d 0711).

Further to my earlier post, 5J21 has to stop at Wolves on its way to Shrewsbury, and is given 17 minutes to do so, presumably to pick up crew. It's a shame it won't run in passenger service to Shrewsbury departing 0538; the first service to Shrewsbury is 0613.
 
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dannypye9999

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Most obvious new services round here are the VT services to/from Shrewsbury.

1R21 (currently 0724 WVH-EUS) will start at Shrewsbury at 0639, having arrived ECS from Barton u/ Needwood (d 0430) as 5J21 - at present it's 5R21 which comes from Oxley (d 0711).

The same could be said for the morning Rugby to Euston service via Northampton as it runs empty from New Street after arriving in from Barton u and it could run a passenger service.
 
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