Southport-Wigan line 1990s

[L+Y]

This is probably the place to ask, but as it's somewhat obscure, I shan't be all that hopeful for a reply!

As a small child, I grew up just next to this line in Parbold: some of my earliest memories are seeing the loco-hauled Club Trains in what must have been 1995, their last summer. I also remember lots of non-stop DMUs, which seems in quite a contrast to the all-stations service the line sees now. Does anyone have access to timetables of the period to confirm me in this, that the line saw fast and semi-fast trains in addition to stoppers in the last days of Regional Railways and then early under the North Western Trains franchise?

 

[northwichcat]

The Airport service started around 2 years after the Airport station opened. Between the Altrincham-Sale-Manchester closing to British Rail services and the Airport service starting there was an hourly Southport-Piccadilly-Stockport-Chester, mainly operated using Merseytravel livered 150s, which caused some confusion at both Chester and Southport!

 

[Philip]

The Atherton line has, at least since 1995 and probably for many years before, always had two trains per hour in the off peak and like now it has been a Kirkby/Southport alternating pattern over the last 20 years. Pretty sure the Atherton line Southport trains were all stops back then like they are now so it may have been the Airport-Southport via Bolton service that was fast. In fact up until about 6 years ago I don't think off peak Airport-Southport trains called at Gathurst, Hoscar, New Lane or Bescar Lane.

I remember seeing I think a class 101 at Swinton working to Southport back in 1997!

 

[Darren R]

(You do realise you're forcing me to don my reading glasses for this one! The days when I could read the GBPTT without them is long-gone! )

The 1995 Summer timetable for the Southport line shows a basic hourly off-peak service running via Bolton. Until the 0910 departure (from Stockport) they originated at Stockport; after that they started from Chester apart from the 1132 arrival into Southport which originated at Northwich (departing 0927.) Journey times were around two and a half hours end-to-end, but calling patterns weren't regular. They called at all stations to Stockport, then Piccadilly and all-stations to Salford Crescent, non-stop to Bolton, then Westhoughton, Hindley and Wigan Wallgate. After Wigan Wallgate, however, it got a bit hit-and-miss. From Wigan there were all-stations trains to Southport at 0700, 0752, 1000, 1300, 1605, 1705, 1800, 1931 and 2115. The remaining semi-fasts omitted Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane, taking six minutes off the journey time. The 0700 from Wigan started at Victoria at 0623, the 0752 departure started at Rochdale at 0619 and ran all-stations via Oldahm and Atherton. The next service originated at Buxton at 0731 and ran all-shacks except Heaton Chapel, Levenshulme, Salford Crescent - Bolton and also skipped Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane. After that they became hourly from Stockport or beyond.

There were also a few extras at peak times. There was a 0918 from Shaw & Crompton all-stations via Atherton to Daisy Hill, then Wigan, Parbold, Burscough and Southport. The next 'extra' was 1710 from Vic (SX) calling both Salfords, then Atherton, Daisy Hill, Wigan, Gathurst, Appley Bridge, Parbold, Burscough, Meols Cop and Southport - that was the regular loco-hauled service.

The last 'extra' of the day was from Buxton at 1659 SX most stations via Bolton, or 1729 SO from Vic most stations via Atherton. BR timetables were never boring or predictable, were they?!

Incidenatlly, they were not Club Trains! Even in the days of multiple unit operation, a 31 and NSE-liveried Mk IIs does not a Club Train make! (Even if they were better than the ubiquitous Sprinter!) The Club Trains were fast services which had a Club Carriage attached: it was a private carriage, first class only, luxuriously-appointed, and you had to be a member. Not sure when they stopped running, but they were long gone by the 1990s!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would the "Club" trains referred to be those that ran from both Llandudno (LNWR) and Blackpool (LYR) which were well patronised by those businessmen who frequented the Exchange in Manchester ?

 

[TOCDriver]

The Atherton line has, at least since 1995 and probably for many years before, always had two trains per hour in the off peak and like now it has been a Kirkby/Southport alternating pattern over the last 20 years. Pretty sure the Atherton line Southport trains were all stops back then like they are now so it may have been the Airport-Southport via Bolton service that was fast. In fact up until about 6 years ago I don't think off peak Airport-Southport trains called at Gathurst, Hoscar, New Lane or Bescar Lane.

I remember seeing I think a class 101 at Swinton working to Southport back in 1997!

Atherton line Southport trains are only all-stop every two hours. The 11:46 train from MCV for instance does not stop at Moorside, Hag Fold, Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar

 

[Dunc108]

Did Pacers infest the Southport line as much in the 1990s like they do today? Its not uncommon these days when you arrive at Southport Chapel Street to find a full line up of 142s at the bufferstops!

 

[northwichcat]

Did Pacers infest the Southport line as much in the 1990s like they do today? Its not uncommon these days when you arrive at Southport Chapel Street to find a full line up of 142s at the bufferstops!

Like I said in post two the hourly Southport-Stockport-Chester service was operated mainly by 150s in Merseytravel livery.

 

[Dunc108]

Like I said in post two the hourly Southport-Stockport-Chester service was operated mainly by 150s in Merseytravel livery.

Well what a change and not for the better... in fact the infamous ex-Merseyrail 142s are seen quite often these days from my experience.

 

[northwichcat]

Well what a change and not for the better... in fact the infamous ex-Merseyrail 142s are seen quite often these days from my experience.

Most Airport-Southport services finished up as mainly single 156s but they were among the most overcrowded services in the Northern franchise so they got 'upgraded' to mainly 4 car Pacers when Northern received additional rolling stock. Putting mainly 4 car Pacers on Southport services opposed to mainly 142+Sprinter combinations allowed services which were overcrowded 142s on other lines to become Sprinters instead. Unfortunately, with Northern being forced to have so many Pacers and additional rolling stock being limited the options would have been keep your 156s see passengers getting left behind all the time or get Pacers.

 

[Philip]

Class 142s are good for stopping services especially those where a faster alternative route to the final destination is available. Man Vic to Southport is one such example as is Man Pic to Chester via Altrincham, you could even argue Man Vic to Blackpool North because this is a stopping service and there is a faster alternative available with much better rolling stock in the form of TPE. I don't think 156s are really necessary for the above mentioned stopping services but they turn up quite often on them.

 

[northwichcat]

Class 142s are good for stopping services especially those where a faster alternative route to the final destination is available. Man Vic to Southport is one such example as is Man Pic to Chester via Altrincham, you could even argue Man Vic to Blackpool North because this is a stopping service

Not sure about your reasoning. The Manchester-Chester via Altrincham service carries a lot of people between Stockport and Chester (similar journey length to Southport to Piccadilly), while the Blackpool-Victoria services continues to Huddersfield in the southbound direction and journey planners do suggest using the direct stopping service if you ask for Blackpool-Huddersfield journey options.

With Mid-Cheshire line capacity is also an issue. There isn't one diagram where a single 142 can be seen as adequate all day, while there are diagrams where a single 156 (with around 150 seats) would be more appropriate than 2 x 142s (with around 240 seats.) On a weekday there's only a few services a day on the Mid-Cheshire line which have loadings over 200.

 

[L+Y]

Did Pacers infest the Southport line as much in the 1990s like they do today? Its not uncommon these days when you arrive at Southport Chapel Street to find a full line up of 142s at the bufferstops!

In the mid 1990s, I remember 142s and 150s being the staple, supplemented by 101s and 156s: and of course the loco-hauled trains which were usually 37s, but occasionally 31s. These are the memories of a four year old though, so no doubt I'm forgetting a lot!

Thanks to Darren for digging out the 1995 timetable. It still doesn't explain my fairly strong memories of non-stop trains through Parbold station, though!

At what point did the line move from an hourly to a half-hourly service?

 

[Dunc108]

Class 142s are good for stopping services especially those where a faster alternative route to the final destination is available. Man Vic to Southport is one such example as is Man Pic to Chester via Altrincham, you could even argue Man Vic to Blackpool North because this is a stopping service and there is a faster alternative available with much better rolling stock in the form of TPE. I don't think 156s are really necessary for the above mentioned stopping services but they turn up quite often on them.

I don't really see many 142's on Man Vic - BPN's although I'm sure they do appear, but I've mainly seen 150's/156's on the majority of diagrams. Sure there's a faster services as an alternative but they're not available to all stations en route. As the majority of 142s/150s/156s & 158s are part of a common pool, literally anything can turn up.

 

[northwichcat]

As the majority of 142s/150s/156s & 158s are part of a common pool, literally anything can turn up.

Not quite. 158s don't appear on the majority of former FNW routes, while 156s don't appear on the majority of former ATN routes in Yorkshire. Pacers are also banned from running on certain lines, while 150s are pretty much cleared to go anywhere.

 

[Philip]

Between December 2008 and I think May this year the 22:21 Blackpool to Vic and the 22:23 Man Victoria to Blackpool were both booked for a 158 Monday to Friday. This seems to have stopped since May though.

As for my earlier point, I just don't think 156s are necessary or suitable on busy stopping services like the ones mentioned. The whole journey may be long and passenger numbers may be high but 156s with their layout are more suited to longer distance services with fewer stops, they are express units really. Classes 142 and 150 are more appropriate for busy stopping services because of the door layout on both, in reducing dwell times and making it easier for passengers to get on and off the train.

 

[northwichcat]

Classes 142 and 150 are more appropriate for busy stopping services because of the door layout on both, in reducing dwell times and making it easier for passengers to get on and off the train.

Well if you take the 07:17 Manchester-Chester, a service booked for a 2 car 150 which should really be 4 car:
* A 2 car 150 (as booked) will get everyone on but with great difficulty.
* A 2 car 156 (in lieu) has both advantages and disadvantages - it's easier for people at window seats to get to the aisle (with no 3+2 seating) but boarding and alighting is slower than the 2 car 150 but everyone gets on still.
* A 2 car 142 (in lieu) is useless. It leaves people behind at stations and the acceleration is greatly affected by the level of overcrowding. Also with the cab doors opening outwards directly in to the saloon it can mean the guard has to throw passengers off so he/she can get back on the train.

Don't forget the 142 only has 3 sets of doors per side (instead of 4) and has a double step so the design doesn't suit busy stopping services where dwell times need to be kept to a minimum, it suits lightly loaded rural lines, which were the type of lines they were intended for. 150s, 321s, 323s and 333s are the only trains in the Northern fleet which suit busy stopping services.

 

[Bevan Price]

Would the "Club" trains referred to be those that ran from both Llandudno (LNWR) and Blackpool (LYR) which were well patronised by those businessmen who frequented the Exchange in Manchester ?

As Darren R posts, they were not club trains, but back in steam age 1955, there were services such as :
16:10 Manchester Victoria to Sothport, taking 52 minutes.
17:40 Manchester Victoria to Southport, taking 54 minutes
Both had stops at Wigan Wallgate & St. Lukes

08:05 Southport - Manchester Victoria, taking 52 minutes, with stops at St. Lukes & Salford (note - non-stop through Wigan....)
18:00 Southport - Manchester Victoria, taking 55 minutes stops as above, plus Wigan Wallgate.
Other services were less frequent than now, and with irregular stopping patterns. Until the mid- to late- 1960s, the route via Atherton was the "main" route, with many trains non-stop between Wigan and either Salford or Manchester Victoria, taking around 27 minutes.

I have not had time to check every timetable, but in 1999, alternate Southport - Manchester Airport services were non-stop between Southport & Wigan.

 

[L+Y]

As Darren R posts, they were not club trains, but back in steam age 1955, there were services such as :
16:10 Manchester Victoria to Sothport, taking 52 minutes.
17:40 Manchester Victoria to Southport, taking 54 minutes
Both had stops at Wigan Wallgate & St. Lukes

08:05 Southport - Manchester Victoria, taking 52 minutes, with stops at St. Lukes & Salford (note - non-stop through Wigan....)
18:00 Southport - Manchester Victoria, taking 55 minutes stops as above, plus Wigan Wallgate.

I think I've read somewhere that these trains in the 1950s used the ex-LNER streamlined articulated sets from before the War: true, or a load of nonsense?