Cardiff Bay line

[CardiffKid]

Hypothetical question aimed at those of you who are familiar with transport in and around Cardiff.

The Welsh Government is in favour, and in the early stages of funding a South Wales Metro focused around Cardiff.

There are at present no firm plans for any new lines or stations and no decision has been made about the use of heavy/light rail or any train/tram combinations.

My question is what should happen to the Cardiff Bay line? There have been several suggestions to date and no doubt more will come along in the future. Here are some of them:

1. Close the train line and have a roadway/bus lane from the platform at Queen Street down onto Lloyd George Avenue ad then onto elsewhere in the Bay.

2. Flatten the embankment it's built on and make trains/trams run at street level with Bute Street, wit the aim of breaking down the divide between the two communities of Butetown and Cardiff Bay

3. Convert it into a tram line and link it up with a wider Cardiff/South Wales with the current/new bay platform at Queen Street forming a bay platform/station for the tram network, within the existing Queen Street Station/Rail Network

4. Convent it into a line that handles both trains and trams.

5. Leave it as it is and install a parallel tram line on Lloyd George Av and/or Bute Street

Any thoughts. What would you do, if you were in charge and had a sizable, but not unlimited budget?

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the moment? Bustitute it (i.e. make rail tickets valid on the existing bus service) and free up the DMU given the serious DMU shortage.

Longer-term I like the idea of it forming the beginning of a Cardiff tram network.

Neil

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Get a slightly beefed-up version of a 139 on it...

Alternatively, it might be an ideal route to run-in Porterbrook's PRM/TSI compliant Pacer demonstrator...

 

[quarella]

At the moment? Bustitute it (i.e. make rail tickets valid on the existing bus service) and free up the DMU given the serious DMU shortage.

Neil

Anywhere else I think that would have been seriously considered, but the Senedd at the bottom end probably means politics overide practicality and logic.

 

[CardiffKid]

Anywhere else I think that would have been seriously considered, but the Senedd at the bottom end probably means politics overide practicality and logic.

Do you think people would be happy leaving the station and getting a bus? Will it not be a physiological knock to someone's journey to have to move from a train to a bus? Its a very busy route, 869,000 used it in 2012/13, that's an average of 2300 per day, far more if you look at working day patens.

Genuine question, no political dig.

 

[D1009]

Anywhere else I think that would have been seriously considered, but the Senedd at the bottom end probably means politics overide practicality and logic.

Yes, I'm sure they have been looking for ways to extend Gerald to and from Cardiff Bay.

 

[krus_aragon]

There is largely a double-track formation available from Queen St to the Bay, with only one side used. There'd be room for a tram line alongside if you wanted. (But if trams are the way forward, I can't see the point in a shuttle train running alongside.)

An issue with using the current embankment is that it leads directly to the elevated Queen St Station and the bridge over Newport Road. Trying to fit trams through that bottleneck isn't practical, so you may as well flatten the embankment and route the tram elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Get a slightly beefed-up version of a 139 on it...

That's not a bad idea at all. LM did this with the Stourbridge shuttle, a similar situation, in order to free up a 153 for other services.

Neil

 

[quarella]

Do you think people would be happy leaving the station and getting a bus? Will it not be a physiological knock to someone's journey to have to move from a train to a bus? Its a very busy route, 869,000 used it in 2012/13, that's an average of 2300 per day, far more if you look at working day patens.

Genuine question, no political dig.

Or approximately 13 people per train at 5 trains per hour in each direction for 17 hours. The times I have used the Cardiff Bay service which have been outside of the peak times there have been a maximum of 3 passengers and a dog, including when the Bubble car was operating. In my opinion not the best use of 70+ seats.
Joining the Bay Car at Queen St is no worse than changing platforms, at Central it is easier than travelling over to Queen St to change again which takes longer than a walk down Bute St/Lloyd George Avenue, which do not appear to be prone to congestion. What the psychological barrier is to bus use I do not know. Frequent new buses with leather seats, air-con and wi-fi running on some routes and yet people still prefer to pay a higher fare to wedge themselves on a less frequent 40+ year old train which occasionally has a working toilet, not that they can get to it. Perhaps it is because they want something to complain about.
The electrification of the Valley Lines network should not have been for second hand trains from elsewhere but for a tram network to have been set up.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I think some sort of tram which still serves the platform on the stations it currently uses like Manchester Metrolink but sharing tracks with possible train use. This will allow route extension onto the vast valley lines services if they become electric.

 

[Greenback]

I think some sort of tram which still serves the platform on the stations it currently uses like Manchester Metrolink but sharing tracks with possible train use. This will allow route extension onto the vast valley lines services if they become electric.

That would be my preferred option. It would protect the convenient connection at Queen St for those who live int he Valleys and want to get to the Bay (or even vice versa), and it could feed into a tram network for the city and its immediate suburbs as well.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The electrification of the Valley Lines network should not have been for second hand trains from elsewhere but for a tram network to have been set up.

Maybe for within Cardiff and its suburbs. But I doubt making the journey to Cardiff even worse for the people at the top end of the valleys will be very popular! Pacers are bad enough, but trams that aren't really meant for hour long journeys? No thanks.

What the psychological barrier is to bus use I do not know. Frequent new buses with leather seats, air-con and wi-fi running on some routes and yet people still prefer to pay a higher fare to wedge themselves on a less frequent 40+ year old train which occasionally has a working toilet, not that they can get to it. Perhaps it is because they want something to complain about.

Just a few:

1 - Having to buy a separate ticket (or deal with the fact that some guards do not know how to sell plus bus tickets).

2 - Having to pay more. You say pay more to use the train, but on through journeys that is not the case. The fare to the Bay for many (if not all?) routes is identical to the fare to Queen Street, so you aren't paying more for that. Having to buy a bus ticket or a Plus Bus ticket means spending money you wouldn't have otherwise done.

3 - Especially true now given the time of year, a change to a bus requires being exposed to the elements. I'd rather just change platforms and stay dry for a bit longer thanks!

4 - The fact that you are covered by the NRCoC if you are delayed. Not so much of an issue on a branch as short as the Bay, but trains and buses can and do break down.

5 - Changing platforms is easier than leaving the station to get the bus.

6 - If you have a fair amount of luggage there is usually less available spare on buses.

 

[tbtc]

The Welsh Government is in favour, and in the early stages of funding a South Wales Metro focused around Cardiff

Genuine question, but how come there's money for a "South Wales Metro", but they are going cap-in-hand to Westminster to try to get someone else to pay for Valley Lines electrification?

I'm not knocking the idea of light rail in/around Cardiff, just confused at the apparent largesse whilst pleading poverty. Is there money in the transport budget or isn't there? Or is the Valley Lines stuff just a cunning plan to avoid paying the bill themselves?

approximately 13 people per train at 5 trains per hour in each direction for 17 hours

Not great, when you put it like that.

It's easy to look at a big figure for "total passengers per annum" and forget how small that can look when boiled down to "average number departing of passengers, per stopping service".

Hard to justify five services an hour on the current route, were it not for the fact that some of those thirteen passengers per train are politicians/ civil servants.

 

[HowardGWR]

Tram, wot Grimsbypacer sed (and Greenback)..

 

[Emyr]

Extend the route to reach more useful destinations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe for within Cardiff and its suburbs. But I doubt making the journey to Cardiff even worse for the people at the top end of the valleys will be very popular! Pacers are bad enough, but trams that aren't really meant for hour long journeys? No thanks.



Just a few:

1 - Having to buy a separate ticket (or deal with the fact that some guards do not know how to sell plus bus tickets).

2 - Having to pay more. You say pay more to use the train, but on through journeys that is not the case. The fare to the Bay for many (if not all?) routes is identical to the fare to Queen Street, so you aren't paying more for that. Having to buy a bus ticket or a Plus Bus ticket means spending money you wouldn't have otherwise done.

3 - Especially true now given the time of year, a change to a bus requires being exposed to the elements. I'd rather just change platforms and stay dry for a bit longer thanks!

4 - The fact that you are covered by the NRCoC if you are delayed. Not so much of an issue on a branch as short as the Bay, but trains and buses can and do break down.

5 - Changing platforms is easier than leaving the station to get the bus.

6 - If you have a fair amount of luggage there is usually less available spare on buses.

7. You often have to sit next to other 'bus passengers'...

 

[adrock1976]

The electrification of the Valley Lines network should not have been for second hand trains from elsewhere but for a tram network to have been set up.

Be careful what you wish for.

Either you want the Valleys wired or not. If Yes, then you get additional trains even though they are workhorses, and will do as a temporary stop gap until younger classes for cascade become available.

If you do not want the Valleys wired, then there will be no additional trains that would otherwise become available to you on their way over, due to a lack of wires. Furthermore, if you (and/or the locals) do not want the Valleys wired, I'm almost certain that Manchester people who reside along the former Midland Railway routes would like to see wires running though Bredbury/Hyde/New Mills Central/Buxton etc.

The point I'm making is that you should be grateful that there are plans to have wires in the Valleys. When British Rail published their plans for a rolling programme of electrification in 1980, there are lots of routes identified that have not received wires yet. The aforementioned document is available as a pdf online.

In peace

Adam

 

[edwin_m]

I'd suggest flattening the embankment, finding a way across Callaghan Square and running a tram to terminate at the back of Central, or perhaps into the centre via the unused bit of Penarth Road. This would give nearly as good an interchange for the Valleys as Queen Street and a much better interchange to everywhere else, and could be extended further into the Bay area.

 

[DT611]

Or approximately 13 people per train at 5 trains per hour in each direction for 17 hours. The times I have used the Cardiff Bay service which have been outside of the peak times there have been a maximum of 3 passengers and a dog, including when the Bubble car was operating. In my opinion not the best use of 70+ seats.
Joining the Bay Car at Queen St is no worse than changing platforms, at Central it is easier than travelling over to Queen St to change again which takes longer than a walk down Bute St/Lloyd George Avenue, which do not appear to be prone to congestion. What the psychological barrier is to bus use I do not know. Frequent new buses with leather seats, air-con and wi-fi running on some routes and yet people still prefer to pay a higher fare to wedge themselves on a less frequent 40+ year old train which occasionally has a working toilet, not that they can get to it. Perhaps it is because they want something to complain about.
The electrification of the Valley Lines network should not have been for second hand trains from elsewhere but for a tram network to have been set up.

or maybe its because dispite the flaws, rail meets peoples needs better then the bus ever could. i'd be such a person who would never take the bus over the train, no matter what. everyone is different though.

 

[Solaris]

Some thoughts...

Previous studies into LR conversion of bay line found that business case was weak for such a small "network" - so a bigger network is needed

Moving away from the current alignment will need timely/costly TWA

Tram-train is best avoided in short term (institutional/standards challenges rather than technical)

Density of population in Cardiff is higher than Manchester, Nottingham, T&W; all with successful Tram/LR systems

If one had a blank sheet of paper would be better and more cost effective to LR all the valley lines. But not really deliverable in its entirety - again mainly institutional barriers

Suggest LR bay-QS conversion could be done on current alignment but business case would need to include onward extension (eg across CSq to Central and perhaps the conversion of some of the current HR network - perhaps Rhymney/Coryton, Penarth branch, city lines).

In essence - follow the Manchester Metrolink model.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Genuine question, but how come there's money for a "South Wales Metro", but they are going cap-in-hand to Westminster to try to get someone else to pay for Valley Lines electrification?

I'm not knocking the idea of light rail in/around Cardiff, just confused at the apparent largesse whilst pleading poverty. Is there money in the transport budget or isn't there? Or is the Valley Lines stuff just a cunning plan to avoid paying the bill themselves?


.

Wider PT is WG responsibility. However rail infrastructure is an England and Wales matter and is not devolved. DfT produce a HLOS and SoFA for England and Wales. VLE is a regulated HLOS output so one could argue it should be paid by UK Gov... unless powers/funding devolved?
This is a political issue....

 

[Envoy]

The Cardiff Bay Development Corporation - set up by the Conservative Government in the late 1980's to regenerate south Cardiff (& build the Barrage) had proposed to actually remove the Bay Line. The idea was that Lloyd George Avenue would link directly into what they called Bute Square & the railway bridge would go. Labour then came to power and Rhodri Morgan shut down the CBDC and passed most responsibility for the Bay redevelopment to Cardiff Council - overseen by what was originally called the Welsh Assembly - then Welsh Assembly Government and now Welsh Government. Bute Square got re-named Callaghan Square - after the previous Labour Prime Minister.

Meanwhile, the railways, realising what was now happening in the Bay area, were quite happy to continue with the Queen Street to Bute Road (now called Cardiff Bay) station. For valley line travellers, this was indeed desirable as they could reach the Bay without getting stuck in traffic. However, this was/is far from ideal for other passengers who arrive at Cardiff Central on main line trains. For them, rather then catch a train to Queen Street & then the shuttle, it is more convenient to walk out of the south exit & catch a Baycar (bus 6) to the Bay - especially as it goes as far south as the new BBC studios. Throw in the fact that the Baycar also does a loop around central Cardiff and it is easy to see why it is so popular.

I would be quite happy to see the Bay line ripped up and think it has been a waste of money making the modifications to Queen Street station to accommodate it - though the increased capacity for Valley Line trains is welcome. If rail passengers could have a through ticket to include the Baycar from Cardiff Central, then I see no real point in spending money on the Bay line from Queen Street.

I would also hate to see trams introduced to the streets of Cardiff or linked to the Valley Lines network. Trams are noisy, the wires are ugly and they cannot keep to a schedule like the trains because they are on streets. Furthermore, the streets have sewers, phone lines, gas, water and electricity cables underneath and these sometimes go wrong. Cardiff now has a most central streets pedestrianised and it would be a retrograde step to introduce trams.

Cardiff is lucky in having a good network of local rail lines converging on the city centre. Trams using the heavy rail system are also not a good idea as some of these lines have transported people form the Heads of the Valleys = some of our most deprived communities. (It can take an hour to reach Cardiff from the Heads of the Valleys). The last thing that they need is a slower tram service that resembles an electrified Pacer. So, I would like to see the valleys & coast line (Llantwit Major/ Rhoose) electrified and hopefully modern rolling stock introduced.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

What do you have against trams? I lived in Fleetwood for several years when there was only the 1930s and some rebuilt 80s trams. They were great! Far better than buses and even some train services. I was also in Nottingham when the first line opened. And people in Bulwell who have a choice between train and tram are shifting more and more to the tram option as it's cheaper, goes to more useful places, has more room onboard and is actually ontime more than the train.

Trams can go 50mph and any street running sections save time that would have been taken up walking to the town centre. Tram's are always electric, have high frequency and use comfy vehicles compared to current trains. How fast do stopping trains go in Cardiff? As a lighter vehicle can speed up faster.

Even if the TPE line from Grimsby to Doncaster was converted to tram operation I would prefer it to the current slow service that only goes 55mph max.

 

[HowardGWR]

I would also hate to see trams introduced to the streets of Cardiff or linked to the Valley Lines network. Trams are noisy, the wires are ugly and they cannot keep to a schedule like the trains because they are on streets. Furthermore, the streets have sewers, phone lines, gas, water and electricity cables underneath and these sometimes go wrong. Cardiff now has a most central streets pedestrianised and it would be a retrograde step to introduce trams.

Cardiff is lucky in having a good network of local rail lines converging on the city centre. Trams using the heavy rail system are also not a good idea as some of these lines have transported people form the Heads of the Valleys = some of our most deprived communities. (It can take an hour to reach Cardiff from the Heads of the Valleys). The last thing that they need is a slower tram service that resembles an electrified Pacer. So, I would like to see the valleys & coast line (Llantwit Major/ Rhoose) electrified and hopefully modern rolling stock introduced.

But that wasn't the question asked by the OP AIUI. He just wanted to know about getting from Queen St to the Bay. Nothing about replacing the Valley network with trams.

Trams in central Cardiff, as in Manchester, to replace buses, is a different issue.

 

[WelshBluebird]

What do you have against trams? I lived in Fleetwood for several years when there was only the 1930s and some rebuilt 80s trams. They were great! Far better than buses and even some train services. I was also in Nottingham when the first line opened. And people in Bulwell who have a choice between train and tram are shifting more and more to the tram option as it's cheaper, goes to more useful places, has more room onboard and is actually ontime more than the train.

Trams can go 50mph and any street running sections save time that would have been taken up walking to the town centre. Tram's are always electric, have high frequency and use comfy vehicles compared to current trains. How fast do stopping trains go in Cardiff? As a lighter vehicle can speed up faster.

Even if the TPE line from Grimsby to Doncaster was converted to tram operation I would prefer it to the current slow service that only goes 55mph max.

There is nothing wrong with trams for short distance services within a city and its suburbs (and even reaching to smaller settlements just outside the city). The issue is that trams are not suitable to replace longer distance heavy rail services. Also at least in my experience of trams in the UK (limited to Manchester) they are significantly less comfortable than existing trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is nothing wrong with trams for short distance services within a city and its suburbs (and even reaching to smaller settlements just outside the city). The issue is that trams are not suitable to replace longer distance heavy rail services. Also at least in my experience of trams in the UK (limited to Manchester) they are significantly less comfortable than existing trains.

The Valley Lines aren't really "longer distance heavy rail services", though, are they?

Neil

 

[WelshBluebird]

The Valley Lines aren't really "longer distance heavy rail services", though, are they?

Neil

I would say possible journey times of 106 minutes (Treherbert to Barry Island) certainly puts the valley lines in a category that is more suited for heavy rail than tram anyway! Of course that is a bit of an extreme case (taking the longest journey I am aware of), but I still can't see trams going down well with those at the heads of the valleys (where journey times to Cardiff are still around an hour).

 

[Greenback]

I agree that the Valleys should be heavy rail. It's quite a way from Cardiff to places like Merthyr and Aberdare, without bringing in Barry and Penarth.

I am confident that most users would prefer heavy rail comfort, including toilets, than anything like you can find on a tram system.

 

[D1009]

I'm not sure how the tram journey times from Oldham, Bury or Altricham to Manchester compare with the former heavy rail, but surely Treherbert, Rhymney, Merthyr and Aberdare are further out than any of these. If the money was there to be thrown at it, the tram network would go no further than Pontypridd or Caerphilly on separate alignments or street running, freeing up capacity to run faster electric trains into Cardiff on the existing lines.

 

[Envoy]

Those interested in this post might like to read this report that has just come up on Media Wales.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/cardiff-going-boom-next-economic-8099294

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Those interested in this post might like to read this report that has just come up on Media Wales.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/cardiff-going-boom-next-economic-8099294

This article has a picture with a tram and a map that shows 'light rail' on it. Someone who oversaw the Nottingham tramway is mentioned as being involved here. Good article to read.

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/update/2013-10-09/plans-show-the-potential-of-metro-network/
ITV news reported this last year. It shows a map that lists some routes as 'bus rapid transit / light rail'.

The map appears to show Barry, Penarth and Cardiff Airport as becoming tramways.