Has electrification to Windermere been authorised?

[thealexweb]

There was talk about 12 years ago in the North West Evening Mail or the Westmorland Gazette of having a passing loop at Kendal or Burneside and having a double platform at Windermere but neither of which have been implemented. I think Arriva Trains Northern wanted to run trains along there but I am not sure where from but the capacity wasn't there.

I noticed some residents mention on Twitter that they are concerned that they will get Class 319s on the branch which they don't want as they are older than the 185s currently used but we will have to wait and see what will be allocated to the Windermere branch.

What is the difference in the number of seats between a 185 and a 319? And as an EMU the 319 must surely have at least an on par ride comfort?

 

[thenorthern]

Another thing that potentially *could* be done with it which might be of benefit would be to convert it to a tram, and continue the service on from Windermere station down the hill to Bowness. Providing the extra stations and a passing loop would be far cheaper for light rail.

Neil

I doubt it would work a Bowness's streets are quite narrow and the hill is quite steep between the two which is why Windermere town exists becuase the railway couldn't build into Bowness so they built it on the hill above which a town grew around it called Windermere. It would be great as a tourist point of view to serve the Bowness port if they could though.

What is the difference in the number of seats between a 185 and a 319? And as an EMU the 319 must surely have at least an on par ride comfort?

Many passengers see newer trains as "better" simply for being newer, of course that's not always the case as HSTs are far more superior to Class 144s despite the latter being newer but many people don't see it that way.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the difference in the number of seats between a 185 and a 319? And as an EMU the 319 must surely have at least an on par ride comfort?

Every time that we have travelled to Windermere on the Class 185 units, (as we do on visits to Durham), we have travelled in the first-class accommodation provided. If Northern Rail take over the service, what will they do to provide such a provision?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Every time that we have travelled to Windermere on the Class 185 units, (as we do on visits to Durham), we have travelled in the first-class accommodation provided. If Northern Rail take over the service, what will they do to provide such a provision?

Interesting question. Arguably the First Class in the 319s should be retained and First Class fares introduced, as people such as yourself willing to pay extra for this should help to plug Northern's revenue black hole a bit.

Neil

 

[21C101]

Interesting question. Arguably the First Class in the 319s should be retained and First Class fares introduced, as people such as yourself willing to pay extra for this should help to plug Northern's revenue black hole a bit.

Neil

Assuming he does actually have to pay anything to use it.......

 

[thealexweb]

Every time that we have travelled to Windermere on the Class 185 units, (as we do on visits to Durham), we have travelled in the first-class accommodation provided. If Northern Rail take over the service, what will they do to provide such a provision?

I take your point about first class or its absence, hopefully it will be one of things answered in the ITT next month.

 

[Class 170101]

That might produce some limitations on through services to Manchester Airport though; unless of course Manchester Metrolink have some undisclosed plans

Tram Trains?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Can you path a 100mph 319 on the West Coast to Oxenholme? Might it have to be a 350 anyway?

 

[Elecman]

I would have though a path could be found following the Virgin Pendolino that runs via Birmingham North of Wigan as the 2 Pendos are flighted roughly 15 minutes between them northbound and 20 mins southbound and then no 125 train for another 45 mins.

 

[Class 170101]

Don't forget the 100/110 TPE services.

If the Class 319s can keep to Class 185 timings between Preston and Oxenholme then it should be a problem.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Assuming he does actually have to pay anything to use it.......

Now then, young rapscallion, both my good lady wife and I have poured many hundreds, if not thousands, of pounds into the coffers of both Northern Rail and First TPE in our local area over many years and did so in the days of British Rail. Admittedly, in the "2012 and onwards" post-stroke period, my rail usage has been somewhat curtailed. My wife, now of some 73 years vintage, used to travel bi-monthly from Manchester Airport to Durham to chair meetings in that fair city up to 2013 and always was pleased with the First TPE first-class accommodation and the complimentary refreshments thus afforded there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That might produce some limitations on through services to Manchester Airport though; unless of course Manchester Metrolink have some undisclosed plans

I would imagine that TfGM already view Windermere as a natural outer-zone part of their seemingly ever-expanding Manchester Metrolink empire..

 

[pemma]

That might produce some limitations on through services to Manchester Airport though; unless of course Manchester Metrolink have some undisclosed plans

Tram Trains?

Network Rail have a plan for when maximum capacity on the Airport-Piccadilly line is reached - extend the spur towards Mobberley: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...utePlans/2009/Route 20 - North West Urban.pdf

Tram-trains to the Airport are not currently under consideration: http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/capital_projects_and_policy_agenda_papers_8_11_13.pdf

 

[Class 170101]

Wasn't exactly thinking of tram trains to Manchester Airport, although that could be a consequnence of this, see below.

I was more thinking of using the concept between Windermere to Bowness in answer to Post 60 above :P

 

[chorleyjeff]

Every time that we have travelled to Windermere on the Class 185 units, (as we do on visits to Durham), we have travelled in the first-class accommodation provided. If Northern Rail take over the service, what will they do to provide such a provision?

Nothing.
You will have to hold your nose and mix with rough folk if you really need to travel by train between Oxenholme and Windermere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing.
You will have to hold your nose and mix with rough folk if you really need to travel by train between Oxenholme and Windermere.

 

[158756]

Have Northern said they'll declassify First on the 319s? Given their revenue issues, I'm surprised they don't consider retaining it as First.

Neil

The 319s Northern are confirmed to be getting don't have first class to begin with. And as they don't do first class anywhere else, it is unlikely an exception would be made for the one train Windermere shuttle.

 

[edwin_m]

There's an argument to keep First Class on the routes that Northern takes over from TPE, of which 319s will operate to Blackpool and Windermere. However there will be various other routes worked by 319s where it wouldn't be justified, so it would need two sub-fleets and the operating discipline and spare units available to keep these on the correct diagrams. Northern isn't exactly well known for this, and nor incidentally were the various Thameslink operators who tried it.

In reality it's unlikely that many people will be deterred by a lack of first class on the Windermere shuttle, and removing it would mean that first class fares were reduced because this part of the journey could only be done in Standard*. There might be a bit more concern if Standard-only 319s operated a reasonable through service between Windermere and Preston or beyond, in which case the First Class passenger would have to change at Oxenholme to get any benefit from their much higher fare.

*At least I think that used to be the policy in BR days. Incidentally I presume First Class fares to Blackpool won't be reduced if First Class is removed from the many trains that have it today, but still provided on a handful of VT services!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 319s Northern are confirmed to be getting don't have first class to begin with. And as they don't do first class anywhere else, it is unlikely an exception would be made for the one train Windermere shuttle.

Has it been stated that it will become a shuttle? There are still some through services (two I think per day), and my view is that there would be significant benefit to reinstating a two-hourly through service.

It almost seems a waste to wire it if all you're going to do is run a shuttle.

The other thing they need to do to it is to run later in the evening, making a weekend away to the Lakes leaving the South East after work more viable. I think it finishing a bit early (i.e. no 23xx off Oxenholme) is a significant disincentive.

Neil

 

[EltonRoad]

There are currently four services from Windermere that run further than Oxenholme - 10:54 to Preston, 12:54 to Barrow (reverses at Lancaster), 18:03 to Manchester Airport and 22:45 to Blackpool North.

In the other direction there are three that originate from further south than Oxenholme: 11:39a from Manchester Airport, 13:39a from Manchester Airport and 18:58a from Manchester Oxford Road.

 

[snowball]

There are currently four services from Windermere that run further than Oxenholme - 10:54 to Preston, 12:54 to Barrow (reverses at Lancaster), 18:03 to Manchester Airport and 22:45 to Blackpool North.

In the other direction there are three that originate from further south than Oxenholme: 11:39a from Manchester Airport, 13:39a from Manchester Airport and 18:58a from Manchester Oxford Road.

They sound a notably unbalanced lot: all the northbound ones come from Manchester, three of the southbound ones stay north of the Ribble.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its something another operator that didn't have to worry about using scarce intercity stock on a branch line would be able to deal with. I.e. if Northern took over they could probably schedule a more regular long distance link, though they would still be bound by WCML pathing so may struggle to make it a clockwork service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My biggest worry about Northern running the service, working from their usual "anything will do" principle when stock allocations are not certain, is that one of "Newton Heath's Finest" might appear on the Manchester Airport to Windermere service one day...

 

[krus_aragon]

My biggest worry about Northern running the service, working from their usual "anything will do" principle when stock allocations are not certain, is that one of "Newton Heath's Finest" might appear on the Manchester Airport to Windermere service one day...

If fairness to them, that principle could also be described as "anything will have to do, because there's nothing else left in the depot".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If fairness to them, that principle could also be described as "anything will have to do, because there's nothing else left in the depot".

As an EMU it might be "Allerton's finest".
Which raises quite another question - what will Northern's depot strategy be for a larger electric fleet when the current NW electrification scheme is finished?
There is no plan (yet) for the route to Newton Heath to be wired.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As an EMU it might be "Allerton's finest".
Which raises quite another question - what will Northern's depot strategy be for a larger electric fleet when the current NW electrification scheme is finished?
There is no plan (yet) for the route to Newton Heath to be wired.

It is no great distance to that depot from Manchester Victoria for such a project to be so effected.

 

[pemma]

The 319s Northern are confirmed to be getting don't have first class to begin with. And as they don't do first class anywhere else, it is unlikely an exception would be made for the one train Windermere shuttle.

The 319s confirmed for Northern are to operate Liverpool-Wigan/Manchester services only. Other routes will be the responsibility of the next franchise holder.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Has it been stated that it will become a shuttle? There are still some through services (two I think per day), and my view is that there would be significant benefit to reinstating a two-hourly through service.

It almost seems a waste to wire it if all you're going to do is run a shuttle.

Indeed. As I understand it the whole point of electrifying it is to allow through services, without running diesels for long distances under the wires. I'm not aware of any policy statement that it'll become only a shuttle, so I suspect that's unlikely.

 

[deltic08]

Its something another operator that didn't have to worry about using scarce intercity stock on a branch line would be able to deal with. I.e. if Northern took over they could probably schedule a more regular long distance link, though they would still be bound by WCML pathing so may struggle to make it a clockwork service.

I think you mean clockface? Clockwork would be one solution to electrification. Key anyone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you mean clockface? Clockwork would be one solution to electrification. Key anyone?

I think he does...but isn't the entire north WCML service except the Barrows run on an hourly clockface pattern?

(If the Barrows go to Northern it would be good to see them moved into one as well - it would IMO have more value than the couple of minutes saved by not stopping the faster services at Kents Bank, Cark, Dalton and Roose)

Neil

 

[D6975]

I think he does...but isn't the entire north WCML service except the Barrows run on an hourly clockface pattern?


Neil

Yes it is, allowing for the Glasgow/Edinburgh alternations.