Meridians post-electrification

[mikeg]

Anybody know what will happen to these? I suppose they could be converted being DEMUs to electric traction, but have heard little about how this is to be achieved. Is there a precedent of DEMUs having being converted in such a way?

Presumably it would involve some sort of inverter to simulate a diesel supply... Unless DEMUs' motors run on 50Hz Single phase AC already?

 

[northwichcat]

Bombardier come up with costs for adding a pantograph vehicle to the 220s a few years back. It was quite high but DfT considered it because they assumed the work would be done in Derby and it would be good PR for the government. However, when they discovered the work would be mainly done in Belgium DfT lost interest.

 

[Clip]

Theres a thread about Devon and Cornwall getting them which seems to have got all sorts of people in a tizzy. Good read though.

 

[The Ham]

Anybody know what will happen to these? I suppose they could be converted being DEMUs to electric traction, but have heard little about how this is to be achieved. Is there a precedent of DEMUs having being converted in such a way?

Presumably it would involve some sort of inverter to simulate a diesel supply... Unless DEMUs' motors run on 50Hz Single phase AC already?

A lot of rolling stock threads on here at some point discuss what will happen to the Meridians (class 222's).

Until the Scott-Rail contract (or is it a franchise I loose track) one favoured solution by many was for Scotland to have them. Given their intercity trains (not to be confused with those that also run south of the border) will now be shortened HST's.

The other two solutions put forward are they strengthen cross-country services or they are used to run the services between London and Cornwall.

It is unlikely that they will be converted to be able to pick up electricity from OHLE as to do so (as I understand it) the existing coaches require a complete rewire and for any of them over 4 coaches long would require 2 pantograph coaches to be inserted. Although, it could be possible to rearrange the sets so that you end up with mostly 4 and 7 coach sets resulting in a fleet of 5 and 9 coach sets (the 9 coach sets would have a similar number of seats as 2 of the 5 coach sets running paired up and of a similar number to the HST's).

However it would require the construction of about 40 new coaches and a lot of messing around with the existing coaches, meaning it's likely to be cheaper to build a number of new trains and use the 222's as thew are.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Replace the 170s with them on the Cardiff/Nottingham and Brum/Stansted services plus a new Brum to Norwich service

 

[Class 170101]

Too heavy for Ely to Norwich. One has been tested there. Restricted to 40mph, so severe journey time penalty.

 

[43074]

There are few routes that would actually be ideal for conversion to 22x operation all factors considered, as I explained in this blog post to an extent.

That doesn't mean to say XC routes such as Birmingham to Leicester couldn't benefit from conversion to 22x traction, however it probably wouldn't make sense operationally, or financially. Clearly it is all speculation and no-one really knows where they will go.

 

[Qwerty133]

There are few routes that would actually be ideal for conversion to 22x operation all factors considered, as I explained in this blog post to an extent.

That doesn't mean to say XC routes such as Birmingham to Leicester couldn't benefit from conversion to 22x traction, however it probably wouldn't make sense operationally, or financially. Clearly it is all speculation and no-one really knows where they will go.

On the other hand, providing XC with a more unified fleet which could all be used everywhere could have both operational and financial benefits. Operationally it could allow for more through services from current Turbostar destinations to current Voyager destinations, as well as making diagramming easier as every unit could be used just about everywhere, meaning events on 1 part of the network could be catered for easier than at current, and all train crew would be trained on all stock, 'senior conductors' and 'train managers' could be merged, allowing for better staff utilisation with staff working a mix of current Turbostar and Voyager work.
Financially it may have benefits as it would allow all XC trains to be maintained under one contract, which could cost less per unit due to the higher volume, as well as reducing staffing costs by increasing flexibility reducing the number of spare drivers and guards needing to be on shift at anytime, as well as reducing training costs as all units will be similar to each other.
It could also allow for a better catering service on current Turbostar routes, as well as providing extra space on these services, which could lead to growth in passenger numbers, and therefore more revenue, as well as passengers viewing first class as a premium service, instead of 6 seats at the end which nobody uses, due to the negligible difference in quality in the current offering, boosting the sales of first class capacity.

 

[Chris125]

Bombardier come up with costs for adding a pantograph vehicle to the 220s a few years back. It was quite high but DfT considered it because they assumed the work would be done in Derby and it would be good PR for the government. However, when they discovered the work would be mainly done in Belgium DfT lost interest.

If I remember the reports at the time correctly it was cost which truly scuppered it - there was simply no viable business case, and as the years go by the payback period only shrinks further.

Chris

 

[route:oxford]

It is unlikely that they will be converted to be able to pick up electricity from OHLE as to do so (as I understand it) the existing coaches require a complete rewire and for any of them over 4 coaches long would require 2 pantograph coaches to be inserted.

Is there any particular reason for the 2 pants coaches required for a 5 car or more unit?

If it was for number of motor coaches powered from a single transformer, wouldn't 4 motor coaches on a 6 car EMU unit be enough anyway?

Enthusiasts might even learn to love Meridians if they had a first and standard driving trailer.

 

[Domh245]

I am assuming it would be the case that it would be similar to the 390s, where there are 2 (or 3) pantograph coaches, but only 1 pantograph is up at any time. Putting 2 extra coaches in them would probably be welcomed compared to only putting 1 in - especially if they are cascaded to somewhere like XC where overcrowding is a real problem.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Is there any particular reason for the 2 pants coaches required for a 5 car or more unit?

If it was for number of motor coaches powered from a single transformer, wouldn't 4 motor coaches on a 6 car EMU unit be enough anyway?

Enthusiasts might even learn to love Meridians if they had a first and standard driving trailer.

The reason for 2 pan coaches was the need for another transformer.

Without the engines and with slight ballasting, a smaller number of motor coaches could be enough.

The other thought is if they can safely put HV cabling on the roof (as they have with the 390s) they could've got away with one pan, but 2 transformers.

I'm not sure about the need for a full rewire, as it could possibly be done with software and some small additional hardware in the motor coaches (I think the voyagers have an ethernet bus which could be used for control) and some extra work done in the cabs.

However with the voyagers already 13-14 years old the economics don't pan out.

 

[andyb2706]

I kind of agree with quite a few of the replies...send them to XC if possible to release the Turbostars for tarting up,was on a couple of the XC Turbostars towards the end of last year and they were shabby.

Plus it would be a fairly modified fleet then with the 220/221 and 222. It sounds common sense but there is bound to be a reason this can't happen.

 

[Iskra]

I kind of agree with quite a few of the replies...send them to XC if possible to release the Turbostars for tarting up,was on a couple of the XC Turbostars towards the end of last year and they were shabby.

Plus it would be a fairly modified fleet then with the 220/221 and 222. It sounds common sense but there is bound to be a reason this can't happen.

It's the money. And that's what it comes down to. A 4 car 222 costs more than 2x 2car 170 and carries less passengers.

Operationally, it makes perfect sense- but the treasury will just look at the bottom line and say no.

 

[trawscymru27]

How about putting the 222s on Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter services? This would release a whole load of 158s/159s (versatile units of good quality that I believe can be used on most routes) for cascade to Northern/EMT/FGW. I think the West of England services are heavily used and a lot of the services are made of 4/5/6/7/8 cars. The linespeeds are quite high too (maybe not 125 mph but at least 90 mph in places).

 

[The Ham]

How about putting the 222s on Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter services? This would release a whole load of 158s/159s (versatile units of good quality that I believe can be used on most routes) for cascade to Northern/EMT/FGW. I think the West of England services are heavily used and a lot of the services are made of 4/5/6/7/8 cars. The linespeeds are quite high too (maybe not 125 mph but at least 90 mph in places).

The problem comes with trying to maintain the capacity:

Yes, the SWML. As to do so would result in a reduction in capacity. Three 159's is about 600 seats in 9 coaches compared with two 221's with about 500 seats in 10 coaches.

Two 222's would be about the same. There maybe scope to increase it a bit, but not enough to match the existing.

Also it is likely that the lines to the south and east of Salisbury could be electrified in CP6 (or not that long after the 222's are freed up from the MML).

 

[TheKnightWho]

The problem comes with trying to maintain the capacity:



Two 222's would be about the same. There maybe scope to increase it a bit, but not enough to match the existing.

Also it is likely that the lines to the south and east of Salisbury could be electrified in CP6 (or not that long after the 222's are freed up from the MML).

Would it be possible to increase frequencies, as they did with XC? Or would that just create too much additional demand? Or are there no paths?

They'd need regearing for 90 or 100mph, too, as their acceleration - as good as it is at the moment - is still worse than the 159s and is fuel inefficient.

 

[swt_passenger]

Two 222's would be about the same. There maybe scope to increase it a bit, but not enough to match the existing.

Also, the the busiest up direction train off Salisbury is operated as 10 cars (2x159 and 2x158). Platform extensions have been done for this at Salisbury and certain intermediate stations, and SWT's fleet has been sized to allow more of these 10 car services as passenger numbers increase.

 

[The Ham]

Would it be possible to increase frequencies, as they did with XC? Or would that just create too much additional demand? Or are there no paths?

In short there are no extra paths.

The latest Wessex document has put forward some suggestions to meet demand on the SWML including re-fitting all trains with 2+2 seats (class 444's and 158's/159's) to have 3+2 seats, or building some double decked trains (from my reading neither were favoured by NR, I would guess that they would favour Crossrail 2, but it does give the level of options which have been considered given the constraints).

 

[ExRes]

At least 222s have the benefit of SDO, meaning that 2x5 car sets can stop at any platform without the massive expense involved with lengthening

 

[BantamMenace]

At least 222s have the benefit of SDO, meaning that 2x5 car sets can stop at any platform without the massive expense involved with lengthening

Or 2x7 car from the ex-international platforms at Waterloo

 

[TheKnightWho]

Or 2x7 car from the ex-international platforms at Waterloo

Good luck asking people to move forward 5 carriages for every stop. It'd be chaos.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Plus the fact doesn't the WEML have differential speeds?

If that's the case, the 222s will be slower than the 158s

 

[ExRes]

Good luck asking people to move forward 5 carriages for every stop. It'd be chaos.

Given the proper information before boarding nobody would ever have to move forward 5 coaches, unless they're too stupid to understand what the difference is between the front and rear of the train of course
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plus the fact doesn't the WEML have differential speeds?

If that's the case, the 222s will be slower than the 158s

Would you really be concerned about a slightly slower journey if you had a much longer train and many more seats available each time you travelled in a 222 rather than a 158 ?

 

[edwin_m]

Given the proper information before boarding nobody would ever have to move forward 5 coaches, unless they're too stupid to understand what the difference is between the front and rear of the train of course

Never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. Given that there would be no access between the two coupled units, someone would be in the wrong one often enough to make the whole thing not worth bothering with.

The only route I can think of that would benefit from Voyagers or 222s without incurring big downsides is Nottingham-Birmingham/Cardiff. There are no Sprinter differentials, most of the other trains on the route are of similar performance, and there is a bit of >100mph running with scope to introduce more south of Birmingham.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Given the proper information before boarding nobody would ever have to move forward 5 coaches, unless they're too stupid to understand what the difference is between the front and rear of the train of course

My point was that with 14 coaches, there are no stations other than Waterloo that could actually take them (other than maybe Exeter). It's not an issue of people knowing where to sit, it's a case of no-one actually being able to use them otherwise.

 

[Class 170101]

Would you really be concerned about a slightly slower journey if you had a much longer train and many more seats available each time you travelled in a 222 rather than a 158 ?

Depends how much the slow down is.

Time is money and there are encomoic models for this. Secondly if the slowing down is severe like between Ely to Thetford 75mph for Sprinters 40mph for everything else it could break the timetable.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Depends how much the slow down is.

Time is money and there are encomoic models for this. Secondly if the slowing down is severe like between Ely to Thetford 75mph for Sprinters 40mph for everything else it could break the timetable.

Why do Sprinters get much better speed limits there?

 

[ExRes]

Never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. Given that there would be no access between the two coupled units, someone would be in the wrong one often enough to make the whole thing not worth bothering with.

I would never underestimate the stupidity of the general public, believe me, after two 20 year careers dealing with them I know better

I personally would never even consider 2x7 car sets, that is just asking for trouble, 2x5 sets would fit the vast majority of platforms in the country and sorry, if people are too dumb to get in the right half of the train, which would probably hardly ever be relevant with SDO enabling both sets to be used at all stations capable of taking 6 cars, then they can lump it and get off at the next stop
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My point was that with 14 coaches, there are no stations other than Waterloo that could actually take them (other than maybe Exeter). It's not an issue of people knowing where to sit, it's a case of no-one actually being able to use them otherwise.

As I've just said, 2x7 is totally silly as they would be useless at most stations and maybe too long for most terminal stations

 

[47802]

So according to the 'Rail' article being quoted on here MML electrification will be completed by Dec 2020, so given that's 6 years away assuming its completed on time I don't think its even worth speculating anymore at this stage.