Do trains have a timetabled departure of 00:00?

[Murph]

There is no such time as 24:00; after 23:59:59 the next second is 00:00:00 the next day.

Very occasionally, UTC goes 23:59:59, 23:59:60, 00:00:00. It next happens on June 30, 2015.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second

 

[johntea]

Funnily enough I was reading this thread at work earlier and thought nothing of it.

However later in the evening I ended up in Huddersfield and got back for the train to York at 23:52.

Just after the ticket barriers there is a screen showing departures and it went in this order :

00:21 YORK
02:43 AIRPORT
23:52 YORK
23:55 AIRPORT

So due to the 00 it had put the later trains at a higher priority than the trains actually closer to the current time

 

[Tony2215]

Funnily enough I was reading this thread at work earlier and thought nothing of it.

However later in the evening I ended up in Huddersfield and got back for the train to York at 23:52.

Just after the ticket barriers there is a screen showing departures and it went in this order :

00:21 YORK
02:43 AIRPORT
23:52 YORK
23:55 AIRPORT

So due to the 00 it had put the later trains at a higher priority than the trains actually closer to the current time

How brilliant must our computers be. A single system can handle traffic at speeds of 125mph all day on the WCML, they are capable of flying aircraft safely around the world yet they can't cope under pressure of the next day approaching.

 

[Hyphen]

How brilliant must our computers be. A single system can handle traffic at speeds of 125mph all day on the WCML, they are capable of flying aircraft safely around the world yet they can't cope under pressure of the next day approaching.

Generally speaking, computers can handle time absolutely fine. There are a number of well-written (and freely available) time libraries out there which do the basics like seconds, years, ticking over to the next day, as well as those which handle much more exciting things like time zones and daylight savings changes (even being updated regularly when countries decide to mess about with those things).

What doesn't handle time well is developers who decide not to use those libraries and try to implement it themselves, when they clearly don't have an understanding of what they're doing. Computers just do as they're told, by the person who programmed them.

It'd be like blaming a microwave for burning your food when you put your ready meal in for 30 minutes rather than the 8 the package suggested

 

[causton]

Try explaining the difference between 0000 and 2400 to the general public. And I've also seen times reported as 24nn which is even more confusing. Can't remember where, mind (but I didn't dream it!).

Uno/Intalink timetables will say 2400 instead of 0000 on the last 602 I believe...

 

[Busaholic]

When timetables in the U.K. started going over to a 24 hour clock in the 1960s and 1970s I can only ever remember midnight expressed as 24.00. It is computerisation which has unnecessarily brought us 00.00.Anyone who can read a 24 hour timetable will know that 24.00 is midnight, whereas 00.00 means the world has ended. No doubt the same kind of geniuses who brought us 00.00 are responsible for our railway ticketing shambles. In 1948, the year of my birth, second class rail travel anywhere in Britain cost 2d a mile and all rail distances were accurately measured. Bring back that system, saving the railways millions in administrative staff, lawyers and ticket inspectors and allowing the BTP to get on with sorting out the criminally anti-social if they can be arsed to.

 

[grid56126]

Have a look at RE18154 on the bottom page - This was the first table I tried at random. . . . .

http://kursbuch.bahn.de/hafas/kbvie...nicht_29082015_22112015_G26112014.pdf&orig=sT

 

[nw1]

What will happen at year 10,000??
I bet that will mess my computer up.

What does the automated voice say with 00 hours departures?
Zero-zero? Oh oh? Hundred? Or just midnight??

Down in SWT-land, it's "midnight-whatever". Most familiar with it through changing at Eastleigh to get back to Southampton from Portsmouth on the last train of the day.

 

[Ediswan]

There is no such time as 24:00; after 23:59:59 the next second is 00:00:00 the next day.

ISO 8601 does define 24:00 as a valid time.

23:59:60 will exist on June 30th this year (a leap second).

 

[dvboy]

The timetable program for the local PTE has times going as far as 2700 for the last routes of a working day, I believe -- internally, at least. They're displayed to the user as 0000-0300.

Easier to work with because the timetable of such day routes often depends on what the previous day was, rather than what the new day is.

In the broadcasting world, internally they use 30 hour days - they day ends at 29:59 (05:59) as the broadcasting day runs 06:00 - 06:00.

 

[infobleep]

In the broadcasting world, internally they use 30 hour days - they day ends at 29:59 (05:59) as the broadcasting day runs 06:00 - 06:00.

That must get confusing as people have to work out that 28 means 4am? After midnight in the grave yard slot they probably don't care as much.

What about those working 05.00 to 06.30, as Steve Allen does on LBC? Under this he works from 29.00 to 06.30.

 

[Hyphen]

When timetables in the U.K. started going over to a 24 hour clock in the 1960s and 1970s I can only ever remember midnight expressed as 24.00. It is computerisation which has unnecessarily brought us 00.00.Anyone who can read a 24 hour timetable will know that 24.00 is midnight, whereas 00.00 means the world has ended. No doubt the same kind of geniuses who brought us 00.00 are responsible for our railway ticketing shambles. In 1948, the year of my birth, second class rail travel anywhere in Britain cost 2d a mile and all rail distances were accurately measured. Bring back that system, saving the railways millions in administrative staff, lawyers and ticket inspectors and allowing the BTP to get on with sorting out the criminally anti-social if they can be arsed to.

I really, really hope this is sarcasm.

If it isn't, I'd invite you to vote for that nice Mr. Farage in May - he seems determined on taking the UK back to some rose-tinted memory he had of the UK in the olden days.

 

[dvboy]

That must get confusing as people have to work out that 28 means 4am? After midnight in the grave yard slot they probably don't care as much.

What about those working 05.00 to 06.30, as Steve Allen does on LBC? Under this he works from 29.00 to 06.30.

I guess people get used to it, and most broadcasters don't schedule programmes to run through 6am but there are some exceptions.

It's mainly because of the scheduling software broadcasters use or used to use, particularly in television, I believe.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I really, really hope this is sarcasm.

If it isn't, I'd invite you to vote for that nice Mr. Farage in May - he seems determined on taking the UK back to some rose-tinted memory he had of the UK in the olden days.

Surely you must like the idea of rail fares being set at two pence a mile.
You don't need political views to like that idea.
Alot of people including my parents and siblings are always telling me about what was good and what went wrong. That's because they're the things easiest to remember afterwards. Everyone has some sort of nostalgia.

 

[Michael.Y]

If you go to Paddington and have a look at the glass doors between the concourse and the Lawn, the opening hours are listed as being 0530 - 2400.

 

[Hyphen]

Surely you must like the idea of rail fares being set at two pence a mile.

Oh, I won't disagree with that bit - I think it's just a little unlikely to happen

The bit that got me most about his/her post was the inference that the "invention" of 00:00 caused multiple ticket types with route and TOC restrictions to exist :P

 

[Busaholic]

I really, really hope this is sarcasm.

If it isn't, I'd invite you to vote for that nice Mr. Farage in May - he seems determined on taking the UK back to some rose-tinted memory he had of the UK in the olden days.

I am the least likely person in the country to vote for Nigel Farage or any of his party - I'd be quite happy for the French government to take over here.

If expressing midnight as 24.00, as always used to happen and was universally understood until some pedants (probably 'consultants') decreed it taboo is rose-tinted then you have a peculiar way with language.

As for 2d a mile or whatever, many rail systems throughout the world (non-privatised, it goes without saying) use a rate per mile/kilometre at least as a basis. There are 67 pages on this forum alone about disputes and prosecutions in relation to fares, which is madness. Many of these show that the general public, or 'passengers' as we used to be called in what you would no doubt decree as a rose-tinted past, are being treated with contempt by some TOCs and individuals working for them. If anyone were to try to write a sequel to 'Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass' today a week spent travelling on the railway in different parts of the country would give them enough ideas for a whole further series. Even RPIs and a lawyer who'd worked on prosecutions for a TOC have written on here that some of these situations are untenable, so I'll agree to shed my rose'tinted glasses when you've shed your all-round blinkers, O.K?

Oh, and right on cue, on radio this a.m. head of BTP being hauled in front of a Commons committee in the light of allegations being made by three of his officers.

 

[Statto]

TFLs way of dealing with the 0000 is continuing as the day hasn't finished until about 5am, even with routes that don't have a night service, couple of examples
http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/schedules/100to149/Schedule_121-34528-MF-MN-1-1.pdf
http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/schedules/1to49/Schedule_25-34742-MT-TN-1-1.pdf
http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/schedules/1to49/Schedule_N25-34742-MTNt-TN-1-1.pdf

 

[TheKnightWho]

It might, however, confuse some members of the public especially at the beginning and end of the week when timetables are different; having a time of 00.00, while logically at the start of the day, could be misinterpreted by some as being at the very end of the previous day.

23.59 and 00.01 remove that risk of confusion completely.

I thought the railway day started at 4am, so that day returns would still work on trains past midnight, for example?

 

[southern442]

TFLs way of dealing with the 0000 is continuing as the day hasn't finished until about 5am, even with routes that don't have a night service, couple of examples
http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/schedules/100to149/Schedule_121-34528-MF-MN-1-1.pdf
http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/schedules/1to49/Schedule_25-34742-MT-TN-1-1.pdf
http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/schedules/1to49/Schedule_N25-34742-MTNt-TN-1-1.pdf

I have seen 2400 being used on some tube maps before.

Does anyone have any recordings of announcements for trains that depart at 0001 or similar?

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the railway day started at 4am, so that day returns would still work on trains past midnight, for example?

No, the railway day starts at midnight and lasts for nearly 28½ hours so that day returns are still valid after midnight.

 

[ash39]

I can't see where the confusion would come from personally. Surely 00:00 is the first minute of the new day. 23:59 is the last minute of the previous day.

Otherwise, everyone has been doing NYE wrong !!!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I thought the railway day started at 4am, so that day returns would still work on trains past midnight, for example?

I was refering to the risk of members of the public turning up 24 hours too early or too late for the train they think they are going to be catching; a particular risk at either end of a Sunday!

 

[Michael.Y]

The National Rail website dictates that the ticketing day ends at 0429.

I would however like to know what happens if you want to buy an Anytime Day Return from somewhere like Bridgend to Fishguard Harbour for the night boat train (i.e. arriving back after 4:30) - hypothetically if you were dropping someone off at the ferry. MixingDesk doesn't like it.

 

[455driver]

I was refering to the risk of members of the public turning up 24 hours too early or too late for the train they think they are going to be catching; a particular risk at either end of a Sunday!

Which happens quite a lot with the FGW down sleeper at Reading.

 

[Tony2215]

There is no such time as 24:00; after 23:59:59 the next second is 00:00:00 the next day.

And talking of Y2K, the consequences of not handling the "century" correctly do still cause some issues with computer systems even today; I know of at least one application that used just DD.MM.YY and went from 31.12.2014 to 01.01.1915. And for Microsoft applications, the next date after 31.12.2029 is 01.01.1930, so there are 15 years left to solve that one if the century is not used and you rely on the "default" processing...

But as is shown here, there is scope for confusion so for most public use, 00:00 & 24:00 don't exist in schedules....

The way I see it is 00:00:00 is the start of a new day and its is how we are all used to it, but the real law of the clock suggests the new day actually starts at 01:01:01, just imagine the clock if the '00' was removed and replaced with '60'

There are 24 hours in day, 60 minutes in an hour and 60 seconds in a minute so the 60th second on the 60th minute at the 24th hour of the day is 24:60:60 which in our time is 01:00:00. After 24:60:60 all the values return to '01' so the time now on the start of the new day would be 01:01:01.

whats noticable is the 1st of the month is always declared as '01' on the start of each month and not '00'. If the time on the clock says 00:00 is midnight then shouldn't January 1st 2015 be declared as 0/0/15

 

[Murph]

The way I see it is 00:00:00 is the start of a new day and its is how we are all used to it, but the real law of the clock suggests the new day actually starts at 01:01:01, just imagine the clock if the '00' was removed and replaced with '60'

There are 24 hours in day, 60 minutes in an hour and 60 seconds in a minute so the 60th second on the 60th minute at the 24th hour of the day is 24:60:60 which in our time is 01:00:00. After 24:60:60 all the values return to '01' so the time now on the start of the new day would be 01:01:01.

whats noticable is the 1st of the month is always declared as '01' on the start of each month and not '00'. If the time on the clock says 00:00 is midnight then shouldn't January 1st 2015 be declared as 0/0/15

Sorry, but to be brutally frank, most of that is nonsense. There's no contradiction between times starting at 0 and dates starting at 1. When measuring time, the smallest interval is 0, and it makes good sense to state time of day as an interval from the start of the day. There is no such thing as "the real law of the clock", just 2 different systems which are related. All that matters is that the numbering is universal and understood.

 

[pne]

The way I see it is 00:00:00 is the start of a new day and its is how we are all used to it, but the real law of the clock suggests the new day actually starts at 01:01:01, just imagine the clock if the '00' was removed and replaced with '60'

There are 24 hours in day, 60 minutes in an hour and 60 seconds in a minute

With you so far.

so the 60th second on the 60th minute at the 24th hour of the day is 24:60:60 which in our time is 01:00:00.

And this is where I disagree.

The first second is numbered 00, the second one 01, ... the fifty-ninth is numbered 58 and the sixtieth and last one is numbered 59. Similarly for minutes. And the twenty-four hours are numbered 0 to 23.

Just because there are 24 hours doesn’t mean they have to be numbered 1 to 24, and indeed they are conventionally numbered 0 to 23.

So the sixtieth second of the sixtieth minute of the twenty-fourth hour of the day is 23:59:59, and the next second is the first second of the first minute of the first hour of the next day, i.e. 00:00:00.

whats noticable is the 1st of the month is always declared as '01' on the start of each month and not '00'. If the time on the clock says 00:00 is midnight then shouldn't January 1st 2015 be declared as 0/0/15

That would be consistent, but it’s not how we happen to reckon time.

Hours, minutes, and seconds use 0-based numbers; days and months used 1-based numbers, as do years in centuries (the 20th century was from 1901 till 2000 and the 2nd millennium was from 1001 till 2000, meaning the new millennium arguably started on 1 January 2001).

Computers are a bit more consistent: they often count months starting from 0, with January being month number 0 and December being month number 11 (i.e. the twelfth month).

 

[pne]

There is no such thing as "the real law of the clock", just 2 different systems which are related. All that matters is that the numbering is universal and understood.

Agreed.

 

[Busaholic]

I hesitate to say that this is the definitive answer, but according to the 1884 International Conference for the purpose of fixing a Prime Meridian and a Universal Day the day is to be counted ''from zero to twenty four hours''. This means that midnight is 00.00 at the beginning of the day and 24.00 at the end of that same day, 24.00 on 1st January being exactly the same time as 00.00 on 2nd January.

Transport timetables in many parts of the world follow this convention by, for example, showing a train arriving at a station at 24.00 if it is terminating there. Conversely, if a train service is departing at midnight it is shown as 00.00.

The gradual disusage of 24.00 is nothing to do with 'time' as such, but the widespread introduction of digital devices for which it is so much easier to show 00.00 when the next minute is going to be 00.01, indeed it is doubtful if many could cope with the concept of 24.00. The millenium bug occurring once a day? lol.

The American navy and marines still use 24.00 to mean midnight, though any computers they are using may not tally.