Merseyside: New stations planned

[Bevan Price]

Was St James railway station situated in a deep cutting?

Yes, and it must have been a miserable / gloomy / smoky place in steam days. See:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_st_james/index.shtml

 

[8A Rail]

Was St James railway station situated in a deep cutting?

Yes. Here is a image link to view - http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_st_james/index3.shtml if you look closely, you can make out the old platforms
This is the history of the station which closed in 1917 - http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_st_james/index.shtml HTH.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The prospect of asking for a ticket from James St to St James is interesting.
Plenty of scope for confusing tourists...
About a mile apart, direct tunnel route available if needed.

I suspect any "new" St James station might be given another name to avoid such confusion.
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I think the answer lies is what has not happened as been part of their plans since the early 1970's! I think that alone tells you a story regardless of the reasons - nowt going to change in the future because priorities are elsewhere. So that takes care of that question!

In the meantime the link below shows an image of the location a couple of years ago.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45827152@N07/favorites/with/13247011955/lightbox/

Readers may be interested to view this image from 1970 produced by the MPTE now Merseytravel.



The future (in 1972) by AJF 1, on Flickr

 

[Gareth]

I've always thought the end game network that Merseytravel envisaged back then as hard to imagine. For example, the Northern Line in that image is all over the place and it's difficult to see what the service pattern would be like. It's also not clear what the eastern extremity of the network was envisioned to be. I see arrows saying to St Helens and Hough Green but one can't be certain they were intended as termini.

The 'City Line' seems to be the Mossley Hill route through to Runcorn. This route looks like it was never intended to be incorporated into the underground DC system, although Merseytravel, none the less, wanted it to still be considered a Merseyrail line. Of course, we didn't have franchises back then so Merseyrail was just a regional brand of the state railway rather than a TOC.

That map reminds me: I've heard that a Chinatown station was planned way back when. It would've been an underground station and located at the Upper Duke St/Berry St/Great George St intersection, on the cathedral side here... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...1s0x487adf8a647060b7:0x42dc046f3f176e01?hl=en

But I don't see it on that map nor can find much about it on the internet. It's either a myth from somewhere or I guess it was briefly looked at sometime later (perhaps late 70s or 80s) and quickly forgotten about.

 

[pablo]

I think that would have simply been a southern entrance to Central Station. Too close to be a separate entity.
BTW, the Britania Adephi Hotel pictured on that link is actually Central Hall in Renshaw Street. Misinformation.

 

[HowardGWR]

I suspect any "new" St James station might be given another name to avoid such confusion.

A bit difficult seeing that St James church is adjacent!

"Upper Parliament St" perhaps? How about "Cathedral"?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suspect any "new" St James station might be given another name to avoid such confusion.

Well, much as I am aware that the good citizens of Liverpool have good life expectancy times and excellent memories, in two years time it will be 100 years since that station was closed and I very much doubt if any of the former rail passengers of the Garston and Liverpool Railway who used that station will still be around...

 

[Wavertreelad]

A bit difficult seeing that St James church is adjacent!

"Upper Parliament St" perhaps? How about "Cathedral"?

I'm not aware of any convention that requires the station to be named or renamed after the adjacent church. More chance of Parliament Street, The Upper bit on refers to the stretch from the east side of the junction to Lodge Lane/Tunnel Road. The area is known locally as the Baltic Triangle and many of the local businesses apparently are supporting the reopening as the area is poorly served by direct public transport links from many parts of the city.

Well, much as I am aware that the good citizens of Liverpool have good life expectancy times and excellent memories, in two years time it will be 100 years since that station was closed and I very much doubt if any of the former rail passengers of the Garston and Liverpool Railway who used that station will still be around...

I suspect if you asked many citizens of Merseyside where the station was you would probably get "Where?". My comment however was more directed towards the towards today's younger passengers, especially those who might be from outside our wonderful City, and who might be travelling to the Liverpool Echo Arena, or BT Convention centre etc which are within a minutes walking distance, and certainly nearer than the existing James Street Station.

 

[martynbristow]

If you ever travel between Brunswick and central and you know its there you can see the remnants of St James'

 

[fowler9]

If you ever travel between Brunswick and central and you know its there you can see the remnants of St James'

Indeed, it is easy to spot along with the old Otterspool station.
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I've always thought the end game network that Merseytravel envisaged back then as hard to imagine. For example, the Northern Line in that image is all over the place and it's difficult to see what the service pattern would be like. It's also not clear what the eastern extremity of the network was envisioned to be. I see arrows saying to St Helens and Hough Green but one can't be certain they were intended as termini.

The 'City Line' seems to be the Mossley Hill route through to Runcorn. This route looks like it was never intended to be incorporated into the underground DC system, although Merseytravel, none the less, wanted it to still be considered a Merseyrail line. Of course, we didn't have franchises back then so Merseyrail was just a regional brand of the state railway rather than a TOC.

That map reminds me: I've heard that a Chinatown station was planned way back when. It would've been an underground station and located at the Upper Duke St/Berry St/Great George St intersection, on the cathedral side here... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...1s0x487adf8a647060b7:0x42dc046f3f176e01?hl=en

But I don't see it on that map nor can find much about it on the internet. It's either a myth from somewhere or I guess it was briefly looked at sometime later (perhaps late 70s or 80s) and quickly forgotten about.

Indeed, back in those days the City Line, Wirral Line and Northern Line were a different proposition. The trains were all run by the same operator in MPTE days. Now of course Merseyrail is a separate franchise however Merseytravel still do the timetables as part of the Merseyrail City Line when it comes to the Northern operated services. It still causes some confusion discussing the differences between the Northern Line and Northern Rail.

 

[Gareth]

Indeed, it is easy to spot along with the old Otterspool station.
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Indeed, back in those days the City Line, Wirral Line and Northern Line were a different proposition. The trains were all run by the same operator in MPTE days. Now of course Merseyrail is a separate franchise however Merseytravel still do the timetables as part of the Merseyrail City Line when it comes to the Northern operated services. It still causes some confusion discussing the differences between the Northern Line and Northern Rail.

Yes, Northern Line/Northern Rail is confusing to some people. I've never really understood why it's called the Northern Line anyway. It serves a fair few southern suburbs as well.

Merseyrail/Merseytravel is another one, with their identical yellow M branding. Add to that the ambiguity of the City Line and we have a pretty idiosyncratic system that's awkward to explain to a local, let alone a visitor.
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I think that would have simply been a southern entrance to Central Station. Too close to be a separate entity.

I don't reckon. This was definitely a separate station. The location I'm speaking would definitely be too far south to just be another entrance of Central.

 

[8A Rail]

My comment however was more directed towards the towards today's younger passengers, especially those who might be from outside our wonderful City, and who might be travelling to the Liverpool Echo Arena, or BT Convention centre etc which are within a minutes walking distance, and certainly nearer than the existing James Street Station.

True but which one would you prefer to walk from / to is the real question!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, Northern Line/Northern Rail is confusing to some people. I've never really understood why it's called the Northern Line anyway. It serves a fair few southern suburbs as well.

Much like LU's Northern Line in that respect!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suspect if you asked many citizens of Merseyside where the station was you would probably get "Where?". My comment however was more directed towards the towards today's younger passengers, especially those who might be from outside our wonderful City, and who might be travelling to the Liverpool Echo Arena, or BT Convention centre etc which are within a minutes walking distance, and certainly nearer than the existing James Street Station.

Would I be right in assuming that the former Merseytravel 8" X 5" rail timetables actually still used the AM and the PM times of a 12-hour time period long after all other large cities moved over to the 24-hour clock time notation?

 

[8A Rail]

Would I be right in assuming that the former Merseytravel 8" X 5" rail timetables actually still used the AM and the PM times of a 12-hour time period long after all other large cities moved over to the 24-hour clock time notation?

May be - is that a problem? People still understand either 12 or 24 hour timetable's regardless where you live. No big thing hey! Current timetables use 24 hour so you be happy then!

 

[franky86]

Would extending the service from Kirkby/ Ormskirk to the old Dingle station be a viable option (in terms of engineering work required)?
It would clear the platforms at Liverpool Central of all those terminating trains, allowing increased frequency through the station, as well as providing coverage to the Toxteth area.

 

[Gareth]

I doubt the tunnel is large enough, considering Overhead trains were a lot smaller. Perhaps a single track could be put in but this would create operational constraints. I don't think the work would be worth it to serve one additional station at only 4tph. The 82 bus through Dingle/Toxteth is far more frequent into town and would do the journey just as quick outside of rush hour.

I think sending more trains south of Central would be beneficial. 4tph between here and Hunts Cross is pretty low, considering its an inner city section of the network. It can be pretty crowded on those services too in the day time. I think a turn back facility at Liverpool South Parkway is being considered as this would allow more trains to head south of Central without them having to cross the flat junction at Allerton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I doubt the tunnel is large enough, considering Overhead trains were a lot smaller.

Just as a matter of interest, were the carriage stock of the Liverpool Overhead Railway any wider than the normal rolling stock of the main railways?

 

[Gareth]

It was standard gauge (as there was some through-running with the L&YR but I'm sure the loading gauge was smaller. Certainly, I've been in the preserved carriage in the Liverpool Life museum and it felt pretty small, especially height-wise; although not to the extent of the deep level tube lines in London.

Having had a look online, the Dingle tunnel looks a bit bigger than I imagined it to be, though I still reckon getting two platforms into the station would be pretty tight...

 

[fowler9]

Getting the train up to the level of the old Dingle station would require some significant engineering and I don't think the space for the require bridge/flyover is available.

 

[stockport1]

It was standard gauge (as there was some through-running with the but I'm sure the loading gauge was smaller. Certainly, I've been in the preserved carriage in the Liverpool Life museum and it felt pretty small, especially height-wise; although not to the extent of the deep level tube lines in London.

Having had a look online, the Dingle tunnel looks a bit bigger than I imagined it to be, though I still reckon getting two platforms into the station would be pretty tight...

Oh look....an Rs2000 in liverpool who wudda guessed

Does the owner have curley hair and a shell suit ?

 

[pablo]

It used to have an island platform IIRC. The trains were two or three carriages long. Rounghly similar to LUL Circle or District stock and very similar to the original Mersey Railway electric units that lasted into the fifties.
Easily extended tunnel. It's all sandstone but, as sed above, the ramp up would be an engineering problem and costly in relation to what it would achieve.

 

[edwin_m]

This is the tunnel that collapsed a couple of years back.

 

[pablo]

Just like the WCML Watford tunnel a couple of weeks ago....

 

[mwmbwls]

It was standard gauge (as there was some through-running with the but I'm sure the loading gauge was smaller. Certainly, I've been in the preserved carriage in the Liverpool Life museum and it felt pretty small, especially height-wise; although not to the extent of the deep level tube lines in London.

Yes - it certainly looks like that. Overall axle weight was a design factor when the trains were built - as was the case with today's Docklands Light Railway

 

[Holly]

Strange to see that big number 2 on the side of the carriage.

I had thought the overhead was first and third class. The overhead closed in 1956, the same year that second class was introduced, so I suppose it must have applied for a short time. I don't remember it though, to me the ovie was always first class in the middle, third class both ends.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Network Rail may have difficulty in handling trains of this length on a regular basis.

The Liverpool Echo reports

Amazing video footage showed a huge line of stranded train carriages being recovered by Merseyrail during a day of icy chaos for commuters.

The company’s services have been subject to “severe delays and cancellations” today due to freezing weather conditions.

It said ice had formed on conductor rails, meaning its trains were unable to gain power.

The problem left carriages stranded on routes across the region, along with frustrated passengers who were stuck at stations.

And the situation went from bad to worse, with the offer of rail replacement buses withdrawn and people advised to “make alternate travel arrangements”.

ECHO reader Andy McLannahan captured a clip of an incredibly long Merseyrail train, recovering stranded carriages on the Chester line.

The Northern and Wirral lines formed the bulk of the journeys affected.

The Liverpool Central to Ormskirk line was blocked and the Liverpool Central to Kirkby line was heavily disrupted.

There were also problems on the Southport and Hunts Cross line and on the Chester and Ellesmere Port line.

Merseyrail said staff were working hard and “every measure” was in place to try and solve the problems.

The company announced its services were finally back in operation at around 2pm – but not without further delays.

A spokesman said: “Services have now resumed, however they are subject to delays.

“Again our apologies for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your patience.”


http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...eyrail-train-ever-8468958#ICID=sharebar_email

 

[fowler9]

Oh look....an Rs2000 in liverpool who wudda guessed

Does the owner have curley hair and a shell suit ?

We all do up here!

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm not aware of any convention that requires the station to be named or renamed after the adjacent church. More chance of Parliament Street, The Upper bit on refers to the stretch from the east side of the junction to Lodge Lane/Tunnel Road. The area is known locally as the Baltic Triangle and many of the local businesses apparently are supporting the reopening as the area is poorly served by direct public transport links from many parts of the city.

.

I am not sure I would agree about the area being poorly served by public transport. The frequent 82 bus passes within 50 - 100 yards of the station site, and runs more or less parallel to the railway from South Parkway. Also the 26/27 bus (every 10 minutes in daytime) links the area with many parts of Liverpool.

 

[fowler9]

I am not sure I would agree about the area being poorly served by public transport. The frequent 82 bus passes within 50 - 100 yards of the station site, and runs more or less parallel to the railway from South Parkway. Also the 26/27 bus (every 10 minutes in daytime) links the area with many parts of Liverpool.

This is true to be fair. Where I live is rather starved of direct public transport links to most of the city.