Should passengers be allowed to sit in 1st class when standard class seating runs out

[Tony2215]

a campaign has begun to allow 1st class seating when standard is full

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/campaign-starts-turn-first-class-5166605

Campaign starts to turn first class train seating to standard when seats run out

Passengers have launched a campaign to force train companies to replace first class compartments with more standard seating to ease overcrowding.

Campaigners say it's a scandal that standard class commuters who pay thousands for season tickets are being forced to stand when there are empty seats available in first class.

The StandUpForSittingDown drive is calling for first class to be automatically "declassified" once there are no more seats in standard. At the moment it's up to the guard.

 

[DarloRich]

yes I should be allowed in FC when second class is full

 

[Greenback]

No they shouldn't. Some of the revenue from first class tickets is to ensure a seat, or at least a better chance of getting one. All this will do is to hit revenue with the resulting knock on effects for subsidy and fares.

 

[SamYeager]

a campaign has begun to allow 1st class seating when standard is full

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/campaign-starts-turn-first-class-5166605

The thread title is misleading. The linked article is actually about replacing first class carriages by standard class carriages which is a rather different subject.

 

[Greenback]

I read that the campaign is calling for automatic declassification of first class when all seats are gone in standard. Which appears to be in line with the thread title.

 

[DarloRich]

No they shouldn't. Some of the revenue from first class tickets is to ensure a seat, or at least a better chance of getting one. All this will do is to hit revenue with the resulting knock on effects for subsidy and fares.

Come the revolution the first class dwellers ( obviously not the day I have a cheap advance ) will be dragged out and shot and then we will all be able to luxuriate in the effete bourgeois decadence of first class!

I think there is a situation, where, on a packed train declassification of first class is appropriate for the comfort and "safety" of the majority. Also it is IMMENSLEY frustrating to be wedged on a standard class section of a train to see empty space being carted about in first class. That should be looked at and 1st class provision reduced ( or perhaps made flexible) where appropriate.

 

[tsr]

The Mirror do not appear to have any knowledge of why exactly anybody would pay for First Class in the first place.

What happens if someone has paid for a First Class ticket, enters a declassified First Class area and then cannot get a seat? In disruption, it is very much more likely to be accepted that they have to squeeze in somewhere else and seek a refund. However, in normal day-to-day circumstances, even the longest of trains in the London area with fairly low numbers of First Class seats have significant overcrowding in peak hours, which a few people pay good money to avoid. Likewise some other major cities and towns. In some parts of London (for example, longer-distance Southern services from London Bridge around 1830-1900) you can even find that the vast majority of First Class seats are taken up with passengers paying the appropriate fare anyway, which means it is hard to justify automatic declassification of a couple of seats which may or may not be available when the rest of the train is full. It would seem not worth the effort and potential conflict to work this out on a train-by-train basis. I know it is sometimes hard to draw parallels, but this is not too different to claiming that people paying an Economy (or similar) walk-up fare to an airline should be allowed to choose the First or Business Class seats on any available flight because the area they have paid for is full on the next few flights.

I have focussed my comments on a few areas of which I have most knowledge, but to be honest this would apply anywhere, and probably even more so when it would be hard to differentiate extra benefits for declassified First Class users sitting there as a matter of routine. For example, with complimentary services on intercity TOCs which would be useless on peak-time trains if only offered on the handful of services where there was absolutely no standing anywhere else and therefore a clear definition of First Class.

 

[Bald Rick]

a campaign has begun to allow 1st class seating when standard is full

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/campaign-starts-turn-first-class-5166605

It already is, as per section 39 of the conditions of carriage.

 

[DarloRich]

The Mirror do not appear to have any knowledge of why exactly anybody would pay for First Class in the first place.

Perhaps because many Mirror readers (hell, many of us!) will never earn enough to be able to afford a first class season ticket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

a campaign has begun to allow 1st class seating when standard is full

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/campaign-starts-turn-first-class-5166605

I think it may make sense on intercity routes where the general expectation is of a seat (or at least it would concentrate TOC minds). But on commuter services, the purpose of first class is a higher chance of a seat, so do this and that goes away.

Neil

 

[Holmbridge]

Come the revolution the first class dwellers ( obviously not the day I have a cheap advance ) will be dragged out and shot and then we will all be able to luxuriate in the effete bourgeois decadence of first class!

I think there is a situation, where, on a packed train declassification of first class is appropriate for the comfort and "safety" of the majority. Also it is IMMENSLEY frustrating to be wedged on a standard class section of a train to see empty space being carted about in first class. That should be looked at and 1st class provision reduced ( or perhaps made flexible) where appropriate.

Clear need for dark glass in first class to stop the lower class travelled having this problem to cope with

 

[fusionblue]

Maybe TOC's should better publicise, first, that first class seating is available in routes where it is automatically declassified (such as metro only routes).

Because saying "standard class only" leaves that open to interpretation.

 

[tsr]

Perhaps because many Mirror readers (hell, many of us!) will never earn enough to be able to afford a first class season ticket!

I probably could not afford a First Class option if I needed to buy a season ticket (depending which of my local lines I was to use), but I would not expect the benefits of First Class either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe TOC's should better publicise, first, that first class seating is available in routes where it is automatically declassified (such as metro only routes).

Because saying "standard class only" leaves that open to interpretation.

Southern do; when on a Metro service a message to this end is displayed repeatedly on the scrolling displays.

Neil

 

[Greenback]

Come the revolution the first class dwellers ( obviously not the day I have a cheap advance ) will be dragged out and shot and then we will all be able to luxuriate in the effete bourgeois decadence of first class!

Well said comrade!

I think there is a situation, where, on a packed train declassification of first class is appropriate for the comfort and "safety" of the majority. Also it is IMMENSLEY frustrating to be wedged on a standard class section of a train to see empty space being carted about in first class. That should be looked at and 1st class provision reduced ( or perhaps made flexible) where appropriate.

FGW have reduced first class capacity, but that's a different matter tot he automatic declassification of first as soon as all seats are taken in standard.

I wonder how many people will expect it on Paddington departures even when half of coach A is empty!

Perhaps because many Mirror readers (hell, many of us!) will never earn enough to be able to afford a first class season ticket!

My mothe rha sbeen ana vid Mirror reader for years and is going to Gatwick shortly in first class.

(But it is one of those cheapo advance thingy's that you mentioned)

Maybe TOC's should better publicise, first, that first class seating is available in routes where it is automatically declassified (such as metro only routes).

Because saying "standard class only" leaves that open to interpretation.

I can see the sense in that.

 

[DarloRich]

I probably could not afford a First Class option if I needed to buy a season ticket (depending which of my local lines I was to use), but I would not expect the benefits of First Class either!

Surely no one can think you should be allowed in 1st and have the benefits without paying for them?!? I assumed it meant you would be allowed to sit in 1st if no other seats were available and the 1st class section wasn’t full. That said a seat on a regular basis doesn’t seem too much to ask!

 

[me123]

This seems like a good idea on the surface, but there's far too many problems in practice.

Let's take a hypothetical non-stop train between A and B. There are 200 standard seats and 50 first class, but there are 220 standard pax and just 10 in first. Seems easy enough. The excess 20 standard pax are allowed to sit in first class, without any additional perks of course, and everyone has a seat. This sounds generally fair; the ten first class passengers may be slightly miffed, but they're getting the service and the standard class passengers aren't so it's not completely devalued their ticket.

However, let's dive into the real world of the railway, and take East Coast as an example. East Coast have a key flow, that is to and from London, but also lots of smaller flows along their route. Lots of people will get on and off at each station along the way.

Let's take a theoretical train starting in London bound for Aberdeen. There are more standard class pax than seats, so the guard (in accordance with this proposal) declassifies FC. Everyone's happy and has a seat as the train trundles North to its first stop, let's say Peterborough.

Or are they? As the catering service in First Class starts, there's going to be a clear differentiation between the SC and FC passengers. FC passengers will have to continuously prove to the train crew that they are FC pax and are therefore entitled to their complimentary offer. The SC pax have no option for an at-seat trolley service (as I suspect the FC staff don't have facilities to take payment), although they can go to the cafe bar. This will probably lead to some uncomfortable moments. Then wi-fi. Complimentary in FC, chargeable in SC. As an upgraded SC passenger, I'll be able to access the complimentary wi-fi free of charge. There's no way of stopping this. In my experience, the FC customer service staff on EC have never asked for proof of entitlement; this is enforced by the guard/ticket inspector.

Another point: who gets the FC seats? An argument could be made that Aberdeen punters get the first call, as they'll be on board for the longest and are, probably, paying more than the Peterborough pax. Alternatively, why should the last people onto the train (the stragglers, running as the doors are being closed) be offered a reward for their tardiness?

Let's then get to out hypothetical first stop, Peterborough. dozens of people leave, only a few join, now there's plenty of seats in Standard. What do we do now? Round the cattle up and send them back where they belong seems fair, but it's probably quite humiliating to be in that situation. I suspect that some people would put up quite a bit of resistance to being moved on.

Let's say the train gets to York and, thanks to a cancelled CrossCountry service, lots of people squeeze in. Once again, SC is overcrowded and FC is opened up. Who now gets the seats? The people who were there in the first place may have a claim, as would the people now stepping on. The FC pax now once again have to put up with us commoners and are probably getting a bit miffed.

This sounds like a crowd pleaser, but it realistically does nothing to help anyone. FC passengers will be disgruntled to be sharing their carriage with the great unwashed after having paid extra for a superior experience. SC passengers will be humiliated by being herded around the train and paraded in front of the FC pax for their entertainment. The self-entitled contingent of our community will insist on receiving the full FC treatment, and refuse to move once they're seated (and will undoubtedly kick up a fuss if you dare try to move them). And the TOC will see decreased sales of FC tickets from both FC passengers who've had their experiences ruined, and SC passengers who will see no need to pay to upgrade to FC. Their answer will be to increase unregulated fares. It also does not incentivise the companies to do what is actually needed to solve the problem; increase standard class seating provision.

This is a terrible idea. I vehemently oppose it with every fibre of my being.

 

[Llanigraham]

Simples:
Your rail ticket entitles you to TRAVEL, it does not guarantee you a SEAT.
If you want a seat that might be available in First then pay the extra.
End of problem!

And for info, I don't travel First (very often)

 

[Bishopstone]

When I am travelling at my employer's expense in Standard Class, and sometimes standing, I fume at the empty First Class seats and the decadence of the class system.

When I am travelling at my own expense in First Class, I fume at 'invasion' by presumed Standard passengers, and the lack of revenue protection.

But on the basis quite a lot of First Class custom seems to come from the extended 'railway family*, I'd say it will be fairly vigorously protected by insiders.

* count the number of signalling diagrams and level crossing plans spread over the tables on am peak trains from Eastbourne.

 

[DelayRepay]

I'd leave things as they are now. On commuter services it would only create a handful of extra seats and in any case as there is usually no guard, who would decide to let people in?

On long distance services anyone who wants to can use First Class by purchasing the appropriate ticket. And if Standard is really full and standing I've seen guards let passengers sit in First - generally those who are elderly and might have trouble standing. My only suggestion would be that they should make it easier to upgrade on board, similar to Weekend First. Maybe stipulate that on board upgrades don't include food or something.

 

[richa2002]

Simply purchase a first class ticket if you wish to have a higher chance of getting a seat. It might not be fair but then life isn't it. Why should people who have made a good living not be able to enjoy a higher standard of living?

 

[Flamingo]

Given that I spend my time kicking people out of First Class who INSIST that Standard Class is full, and I then walk through the train and find anything up to 130 empty seats (last Friday), and quite often these same people are standing in First Class and not making any effort to find a seat anywhere on the train (but still insist that they won't move unless I find them a seat) then I think that this is the greatest load of bollix I can think of, and just pandering to the "victim" culture that is encouraged.

If people want to travel in First Class, pay for it. If people want a turn-up-and-go railway, then one of the down-sides of it is that they may have to look a little bit harder to find a seat. If people want a guaranteed seat, then make a reservation, or get a quieter train, or even walk through the damn train and look for one.

If my trains are crush-loaded then fine, I will declassify First Class. If somebody is at need of a seat (elderly, infirm, ill, pregnant, kids, disabled) I will often sit them in First Class if no other option. The problem with this sort of thing is that these are not going to be the people who will sit in First - it'll be the pushy self-important commuter who runs on-board at the last second and then decides that it's too far to walk down the train to find the empty seats, and think "I'll have a seat here, I'm entitled to it".

To summarise, "If you are on a Standard Class ticket and would like to sit in First Class, you should have worked harder at school and got a better job" (my announcement leaving London on my last day at work).

 

[Wild Swan]

Well said Flamingo. An excellent post.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yep, those 16 first class seats will really make a difference to peak time crowding in London.

Want a first class seat? Buy a first class ticket. Not sure what's so controversial about that. Especially as the big benefit of a first class ticket is being able to get a seat.

Guards are sensible at declassifying crush loaded trains. But some idiotic idea like this will just see everyone sit in first class as "standard class is too busy". So what would be the point in buying a first class ticket?

Whether commuter trains should have first class, and whether intercity trains have too much/not enough first class, is a totally different argument.

 

[Greenback]

Whether commuter trains should have first class, and whether intercity trains have too much/not enough first class, is a totally different argument.

Absolutely. The idea that declassification should be automatic is a poor one. Reducing first class capacity on some inter city routes is a different kettle of fish and is something that I could support.

Ultimately, though, I believe it;s best left tot he TOC's to make those sort of decisions. I don't believe that the DfT should be issuing orders!

 

[richw]

I took the 1006 today, Paddington to Penzance. From Reading all First Class seats were taken bar two, the Pullman was turning people away, and Standard was standing only.
The 1006 runs fast from Reading to Exeter so a long stand.

Whether this is the norm, I don't know, but I would say no standard class holders shouldn't be allowed in First regardless,

 

[AM9]

Will the situation change a little when the next generation trains that have load sensors fitted arrive, and passengers will be directed to the less loaded coaches. If the TM/RPO has access to this information, he can kill the 'all the standard seats are taken' excuse on the spot. The opportunist passenger then has the option of vacating the seat and coach or collecting a penalty etc.. If the first choice is not taken promptly, any vacant standard class seats might then disappear at the next stop.

 

[6Gman]

Given that I spend my time kicking people out of First Class who INSIST that Standard Class is full, and I then walk through the train and find anything up to 130 empty seats (last Friday), and quite often these same people are standing in First Class and not making any effort to find a seat anywhere on the train (but still insist that they won't move unless I find them a seat) then I think that this is the greatest load of bollix I can think of, and just pandering to the "victim" culture that is encouraged.

If people want to travel in First Class, pay for it. If people want a turn-up-and-go railway, then one of the down-sides of it is that they may have to look a little bit harder to find a seat. If people want a guaranteed seat, then make a reservation, or get a quieter train, or even walk through the damn train and look for one.

If my trains are crush-loaded then fine, I will declassify First Class. If somebody is at need of a seat (elderly, infirm, ill, pregnant, kids, disabled) I will often sit them in First Class if no other option. The problem with this sort of thing is that these are not going to be the people who will sit in First - it'll be the pushy self-important commuter who runs on-board at the last second and then decides that it's too far to walk down the train to find the empty seats, and think "I'll have a seat here, I'm entitled to it".

To summarise, "If you are on a Standard Class ticket and would like to sit in First Class, you should have worked harder at school and got a better job" (my announcement leaving London on my last day at work).

What Flamingo said.



Well, most of it

(Seriously, how often is Standard described as "full" when people actually mean - "I can't get a seat on my own and I'm certainly not sitting next to a stranger")

 

[Dave1987]

Given that I spend my time kicking people out of First Class who INSIST that Standard Class is full, and I then walk through the train and find anything up to 130 empty seats (last Friday), and quite often these same people are standing in First Class and not making any effort to find a seat anywhere on the train (but still insist that they won't move unless I find them a seat) then I think that this is the greatest load of bollix I can think of, and just pandering to the "victim" culture that is encouraged.

If people want to travel in First Class, pay for it. If people want a turn-up-and-go railway, then one of the down-sides of it is that they may have to look a little bit harder to find a seat. If people want a guaranteed seat, then make a reservation, or get a quieter train, or even walk through the damn train and look for one.

If my trains are crush-loaded then fine, I will declassify First Class. If somebody is at need of a seat (elderly, infirm, ill, pregnant, kids, disabled) I will often sit them in First Class if no other option. The problem with this sort of thing is that these are not going to be the people who will sit in First - it'll be the pushy self-important commuter who runs on-board at the last second and then decides that it's too far to walk down the train to find the empty seats, and think "I'll have a seat here, I'm entitled to it".

To summarise, "If you are on a Standard Class ticket and would like to sit in First Class, you should have worked harder at school and got a better job" (my announcement leaving London on my last day at work).

Very well said Flamingo!
And you will get the people who will intentionally stand right next to first class so the second all the seats are taken in the coach next to first class they will be straight in there even though there may be plenty of seats further down. This is a nice idea in theory but it just won't work in practise.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I took the 1006 today, Paddington to Penzance. From Reading all First Class seats were taken bar two, the Pullman was turning people away, and Standard was standing only.
The 1006 runs fast from Reading to Exeter so a long stand.

Whether this is the norm, I don't know, but I would say no standard class holders shouldn't be allowed in First regardless,

Just out of interest, was the HST a 2+8 with 1.5 1st class?