A cheap way to London?

[Ascot]

Been playing around with different places that show up with a Via London route.

One that struck me was a Birmingham to Swindon. Comes up with a Via London and a Not London (Maps LONDON BL BP+MW CE CE+SB MW)

So the next station along the line would be Kemble. Kemble's ticket comes up with Any Permitted so meaning anything that comes in the Routeing guide.

Kemble comes under (Gloucester Group Swindon (Wilts)) so I shall use the Swindon part (as per above). Since this is not a main point the lower fare does not apply?

Will this work?

 

[yorkie]

Depends.

A Newark-Kemble is not officially allowed via London, but would it be accepted? Probably!

A Grantham-Kemble IS valid via London, but does not have the "+" so you get grief from people who have been incorrectly trained who work for London Underground at barriers.

Neither of those are cheaper than a ticket to London though, but they are a lot cheaper than a ticket to Swindon, because they are set by EMT.

 

[paul1609]

I think that if the ticket does not have a "+" LUL are probably able to refuse it. The ticket is probably incorrectly coded by ATOC or you could go via London Bridge, Waterloo and Reading!

 

[yorkie]

I think that if the ticket does not have a "+" LUL are probably able to refuse it. The ticket is probably incorrectly coded by ATOC or you could go via London Bridge, Waterloo and Reading!

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the Fares Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross (+) symbol. Reference to Section C (yellow pages) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

Some LU employees have not been told this, and they say something along the lines of paul1609's quote. You then have to produce the relevant documentation. In my experience it often involves getting a more senior staff member to put the junior one on the gate right. We shouldn't have to bring such documentation on journeys, but if anyone is doing such a journey I suggest you print the relevant documentation to show that your journey is valid via London. GNER and FGW accepted the tickets without question.

There have been several reports recently of LU people being told, incorrectly, that any journey without a '+' is not valid on LU, and you have to argue your case with them. I really don't see why they act like this, as I have heard at LU get a set amount of money every year by NR to allow NR passengers to use their services, and LU really should not tell passengers of another TOC that their tickets are "not valid" when they are.

It's not the staff members fault that they have been poorly trained, but if they don't understand the Routeing Guide, they shouldn't pretend to.

I have been told by an LU employee that the training LU gives on NR ticket validities is inadequate. That being the case, they should accept all tickets unless they are 110% sure they are not valid. After all, customers wouldn't expect to be told off in a shop by a shop assistant who doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

[paul1609]

Its still difficult to see why ATOC do not produce the tickets with the "+". This would clear up the problem and negate the need for further training at LUL. I'm still not sure that cross-London transfer automatically includes LUL to be honest and I think that the LUL staff may actually still be right.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The routeing guide is quite specific on routes (hence the name, d'oh) the lower fare rule applys to origins, destinations and routing points, not train changing points.

The routeing maps for Birmingham Group and Swindon group are CE or MW. It is therefore NOT valid via London unless the ticket states Via London, which is more expensive.

Tickets valid via london normally have + on them however there are still a few that are wrong.

The Kemble ticket is route map CE only and thus is NOT valid via London.

If you are ever unsure of a route, ask a proffesional.

 

[me123]

The routeing maps for Birmingham Group and Swindon group are CE or MW. It is therefore NOT valid via London unless the ticket states Via London, which is more expensive.

The routeing guide shows that London is a map, as per the first post on the thread which allows transfer through London on all tickets that don't say (not LONDON) on them.

The Kemble ticket is route map CE only and thus is NOT valid via London.

Correct

If you are ever unsure of a route, ask a proffesional.

Good advice to yourself.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The routeing guide shows that London is a map, as per the first post on the thread which allows transfer through London on all tickets that don't say (not LONDON) on them.....


......Good advice to yourself.

I suggest you read the instructions to the routeing guide before making a fool of yourself.

The station copy of the Routeing Guide states, although the Online copy will also state, that an any permitted ticket is not valid on a route where a more expensive route specific ticket applies.

The routes for Birmingham to Swindon , on the ticket, are +London and NOT London. The +London ticket is more expensive than the Birmingham-London ticket.

Even if the Not London ticket was the only any permitted ticket, it would not be valid that way as the routeing point would be London and total fare would be less than the Birmingham-London fare

PLEASE RTFM IN FUTURE

 

[me123]

I suggest you read the instructions to the routeing guide before making a fool of yourself.

...

PLEASE RTFM IN FUTURE

Charming :roll: And, BTW, I make a foll of myself all the time, like one more time's gonna make me look even worse

Anyway, that rule as such was not known to me and thank you for bringing it too my attention. The ticketing Scotland seems to work out easier as our routes tend to criss-cross less oftem than those in England. However, one of the routes I travel on shows that CBC to EDB is valid via Cumbernauld and Falkirk Grahamston. However, it is about £3 cheaper than originating at Cumbernauld.

It is a valid route according to both the routeing guide and the thetrainline, and has always been accepted onboard trains (only one guard quizzed me about it; he accepted it was valid). However, based on the rule you stated, it's invalid. Is there an easement, or am I travelling illegally, because about 10 guards with FSR think it's valid.

BTW, the "main" route meant to be taken is via MTH, but the service frequency is only 2-hourly from EBD to there and travel via FKG is often quicker.

 

[Ascot]

The Kemble ticket is route map CE only and thus is NOT valid via London.

If you are ever unsure of a route, ask a proffesional.

Thanks for the reply and fair enough if you are a "proffesional" but one thing that strikes me is if you look on the routeing guide:

1. In the purple pages

Kemble| Gloucester Group| Swindon (Wilts)

2.With me so far? In the yellow pages

Swindon (Wilts)| Birmingham Group| LONDON| BL| BP+MW| CE| CE+SB| MW

I see you are correct in it is only CE only and not BL BP+MW, LONDON, etc..

3.Hope the CE has kept you on track? Lets click the London Button as per instructions in the Routeing guide.

Birmingham Group London Group BP+TV CS GC TV
London Group Swindon (Wilts) WR WR+WX

4. Usually on this forum we respect other people and views and share a common interest below the clouds. So as you say http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/printable.htm here is the rules and this is why I posted asked for reasons. As a matter of Interest what TOC do you work for and what role with the "Station Copy" Routeing guide? Sorry but looking at other posts you are infact another fake and i'm sure some people in the community would love this on a certain website. You claim to be an EX Driver as seen in another post so full of ticketing rules i see.

 

[yorkie]

The routes for Birmingham to Swindon , on the ticket, are +London and NOT London. The +London ticket is more expensive than the Birmingham-London ticket.

The Birmingham-London ticket has no relevance whatsoever, you are confused!

Even if the Not London ticket was the only any permitted ticket, it would not be valid that way as the routeing point would be London and total fare would be less than the Birmingham-London fare

PLEASE RTFM IN FUTURE

The routeing point for where would be London?!

Birmingham is a routeing point. Swindon is a routeing point. A routeing point is a routeing point and cannot have another routeing point!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have looked at the original question of whether Kemble-Birmingham is valid via London or not.

Hairyhandedfool says "no", he may be correct, but the way he goes about 'proving' it is not valid is totally wrong and displays a complete lack of understanding of the Routeing Guide.

We need to select an appropriate routeing point for Kemble, but neither Swindon nor Gloucester passes the fare check rule if you compare a Saver.

The RG says:-

"In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected thanall its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison purposes"

So let's look at Standard Single fares (using last year's fares):-

Birmingham-Kemble SDS 18-90
Birmingham-Swindon SOS 24.50 (Not London) / SOS £89.00 (+LONDON)
Birmingham-Gloucester SOS 14-60

(Note: London does not come into it)

So, this concludes that Gloucester is an appropriate RP, but Swindon is not.

I hope that clears it up.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Right, okay, I'm having a similar conversation about routeings in another thread, so to be brief the original question was about traveling to London using either a Kemble-Swindon ticket or a Birmingham-Swindon ticket.

The Birmingham Swindon ticket is routed +London or NOT London, and the +London is more than the Birmingham-London ticket, The Kemble-Swindon ticket is shown, on the ticket machines and the station guide, as NOT VALID via London. When using the routeing guide you cannot pass through a station more than once.

TBH, I think the online guide is dangerous and open to wrong routeings.

Perhaps my explaining of how I understand the routeing guide to work is different to how others interpret it, but it is based, not on the online version, but the station version.

I'm not familiar with the cbc to edb route but the station routing guide does show those both as valid routes, excepting for any fares issues that I really can't be bothered to look up.

 

[Ascot]

Right, okay, I'm having a similar conversation about routeings in another thread

Yes you have created quite a few questions about yourself.

so to be brief the original question was about traveling to London using either a Kemble-Swindon ticket or a Birmingham-Swindon ticket.

Was a Birmingham to Kemble ticket

The Birmingham Swindon ticket is routed +London or NOT London, and the +London is more than the Birmingham-London ticket, The Kemble-Swindon ticket is shown, on the ticket machines and the station guide, as NOT VALID via London. When using the routeing guide you cannot pass through a station more than once.

We know it is routed London or Not London but that isn't a Kemble ticket. What has a Birmingham to London got to do with anything? Quote it in your station guide.
Then how come on a ticket machine it prints out Any Permitted as such 18th of Nov 06 number 89960 8845-8961-39 routed ANY PERMITTED from Birmingham STNS to Kemble.

TBH, I think the online guide is dangerous and open to wrong routeings. If it is shown on Ticket machines then how come

I'm sure your ticket machines use monopoly money at this rate.

Perhaps my explaining of how I understand the routeing guide to work is different to how others interpret it, but it is based, not on the online version, but the station version.

Again with the "station version" there is only one Routeing guide and some TOCs make one easier to read with the local stuff on but they do not make it up.

I'm not familiar with the cbc to edb route but the station routing guide does show those both as valid routes, excepting for any fares issues that I really can't be bothered to look up.

Looked at everything else so why not? You are the master at routeing.
Including London tickets, XC tickets and North East tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Was a Birmingham to Kemble ticket

Ah yes, thats what I meant. Still not valid via London though.

....Then how come on a ticket machine it prints out Any Permitted as such 18th of Nov 06 number 89960 8845-8961-39 routed ANY PERMITTED from Birmingham STNS to Kemble.

'Any permitted route' replaced 'any reasonable route' as it was becoming increasingly hard to govern routes in the face of privatisation.

Again with the "station version" there is only one Routeing guide and some TOCs make one easier to read with the local stuff on but they do not make it up.

Hold on just one second, you are telling me that 'some TOCs' decided to spend time and effort getting together to rewrite the routing guide maps, just to make it easier? I can tell you've never seen it.

In order for that to be true it would have to lie, which you are saying it cannot do.

I think it more likely that it was rewritten to make it easer for joe public, who, in all likelyhood, just want the easiest route, and not to be faced with maps covering half the country (that is a slight embelishment, they don't really, they just look like it).

The station version is the version ALL stations got, not 'some', your right though, it isn't made up. It is national and has tables that convey the same routing points. As I have said, the only real difference is the maps. The station version was produced BEFORE the online one.

Looked at everything else so why not? You are the master at routeing.

Gee thanks.

Told you though, can't be bothered, and there is no real reason to, cos I can't see it not being. Am I getting under your skin?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For information purposes, the route via London (BHM-KEM) are shown as needing two tickets on www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Ascot]

Ah yes, thats what I meant. Still not valid via London though.

Please quote in your routeing guide.

'Any permitted route' replaced 'any reasonable route' as it was becoming increasingly hard to govern routes in the face of privatisation.

What has that got to do with this? We know that.

Hold on just one second, you are telling me that 'some TOCs' decided to spend time and effort getting together to rewrite the routing guide maps, just to make it easier? I can tell you've never seen it.

I'm telling you that some TOC's make simpler ones and maps for their local area as going from someone within the North East for example the Inverness/Aberdeen rule.hence your "station copy version" which has not been heard by anyone else.

In order for that to be true it would have to lie, which you are saying it cannot do.

In English?

I think it more likely that it was rewritten to make it easer for joe public, who, in all likelyhood, just want the easiest route, and not to be faced with maps covering half the country (that is a slight embelishment, they don't really, they just look like it).

There is one routeing guide and they do not put a fake one that adds extra routeings for the public to see.

The station version is the version ALL stations got, not 'some', your right though, it isn't made up. It is national and has tables that convey the same routing points. As I have said, the only real difference is the maps. The station version was produced BEFORE the online one.

Then show us an example

Gee thanks.

Told you though, can't be bothered, and there is no real reason to, cos I can't see it not being. Am I getting under your skin?

It's interesting how everything you say contradicts everyone and everything else.

One thing you are forgetting is you say the Kemble ticket is only valid via Cheltenham map, it is also clearly valid via the Reading/Oxford route which is also contradicting your own Routeing guide. Please quote us your rules.

 

[yorkie]

Ah yes, thats what I meant. Still not valid via London though.

But for the reasons I stated above, not yours.

Do you accept that your reasoning was wrong and that I gave a correct analysis.

'Any permitted route' replaced 'any reasonable route' as it was becoming increasingly hard to govern routes in the face of privatisation.

Correct ! (for a change )

The station version is the version ALL stations got, not 'some', your right though, it isn't made up. It is national and has tables that convey the same routing points. As I have said, the only real difference is the maps. The station version was produced BEFORE the online one.

You admit it's out of date? then don't use it. Use the online version. No live internet access? then print the PDFs.

---
For information purposes, the route via London (BHM-KEM) are shown as needing two tickets on www.nationalrail.co.uk

nationalrail.co.uk is not an authoritative source on routeing. Only the RG is. all other sources interpret the RG. But, you are correct, for the reasons I stated above and nothing to do with the Birmingham-London fare.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....You admit it's out of date?....

....nationalrail.co.uk is not an authoritative source on routeing. Only the RG is. all other sources interpret the RG....

No I don't, infact it appears to be more than adequate. Nothing has changed on the railway to the extent that it needs rewriting.

I don't pretend that the Online RG is entirely right either. The online RG is also an interpretation of the RG, as the author of the site is not the author of the RG.

 

[Ascot]

No I don't, infact it appears to be more than adequate. Nothing has changed on the railway to the extent that it needs rewriting.

Just the odd anomaly patch here and there, fact station groups have been added and taken away and Blackpool is a free for all, not much yeah. hock:

I don't pretend that the Online RG is entirely right either. The online RG is also an interpretation of the RG, as the author of the site is not the author of the RG.

So ATOC isn't? They are not just ATOC pdf's of ATOC's routeing guide and they make another one up? Where do you dig this stuff from? :razz:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I didn't say anyone made up anything, merely that the chap who put the stuff on the web is not the guy that wrote it, and therefore is open to interpretation.

 

[Ascot]

I didn't say anyone made up anything, merely that the chap who put the stuff on the web is not the guy that wrote it, and therefore is open to interpretation.

So you are saying he is making it up as he goes along? Are you also digging into a hole?

 

[yorkie]

No I don't, infact it appears to be more than adequate. Nothing has changed on the railway to the extent that it needs rewriting.

Are you being serious or are you trolling? I think we have a right to know.

There have been many changes to the RG. Fact. Unlike you, I am going to quote several sources that indicate that the RG has been updated, and will be updated again in future.

1) "the NRG is being scrutinised to discover and correct any anomalies" - Tim Stevens, Retail Services Manager, 5 November 1998.
2) RG updated in May 2004 - source
3) GNER forced ATOC to change the RG in April 2005 - source
4) Northern themselves have accepted the fact that a Carlisle-Newcastle is currently valid via Leeds. I keep telling you this and you keep ignoring it. Northern have said they are getting the RG changed. If your employers say the RG is going to be changed, how can you say that it has not been changed for 12 years?

I don't pretend that the Online RG is entirely right either. The online RG is also an interpretation of the RG, as the author of the site is not the author of the RG.

You keep spouting this drivel. If it is incorrect, why is it incorrect and can I see the correct version? In contract law what you say does not hold water. Who are the authors then? The online RG is the only RG that customers have access to, and the only one that ATOC promote.