No Welsh Trains to Manchester Airport (Now approved until December 2017)

[Y Ddraig Coch]

A link to an article saying there are 1.25 million annual passengers from North Wales. 6% of which travel by train or coach. So around 60,000 a year on the train.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmwelaf/memo/ucprovision/m12702.htm

2.0 MANCHESTER AIRPORT



2.1 Manchester Airport is the UK's fourth biggest and the largest outside the south east. Manchester Airport handled over 22 million passengers in 2007 and is the major international gateway airport for travellers in the North of England, and North Wales.

3.0 AIR PASSENGERS FROM NORTH WALES

3.1 Manchester Airport predominantly serves the North of Wales, drawing air passengers from the Gwynedd, Clwyd and northern Powys. The topography of northern and central Wales is such that air passengers from these areas will look first to airports in the North of England. In 2007[1] there were approximately 1.25 million air passengers originating from North Wales. 816,000 (65%) of these used Manchester. A further 263,000 used Liverpool John Lennon Airport. With both Manchester and Liverpool accounting for 86% of air passenger movements from North Wales, it is clear that North Wales is heavily reliant on Manchester Airport as an international gateway.

ACCESS TO MANCHESTER FROM NORTH WALES

3.2 Strategic access routes between North Wales and the North West of England are the A55, and the main rail line from Chester to Holyhead. The A55 is a trunk road on the national network, and predominantly to dual carriageway standard. It connects to the North West motorway network at Chester, initially onto the M53, and then onto the M56 direct to Manchester Airport. The rail line links the major towns North Wales between Holyhead and Chester, and then onto Manchester. The line is not electrified, and diesel express trains are operated on this route by Arriva Trains Wales to Manchester, and by Virgin Trains to London. There is no direct train service to Manchester Airport. Passengers that want to use rail to travel to Manchester Airport have to change trains at Manchester Piccadilly or Crewe.

MODAL SHARE FOR AIR PASSENGERS[2]

3.3 The majority of journeys between North Wales and Manchester Airport are made by private car and minicab. Less than 6% use rail or coach, and rail is the largest public transport mode with 4.5% of trips. 21% of trips are by private hire taxi, and a family friend or relative drops off 29%. The remainder mainly park and fly using one of the airport car parks.

3.4 The modal choices exhibited by North Wales passengers are heavily influenced by the convenient access to the strategic road and motorway network linking North Wales with Manchester Airport. The enhancement of the A55 and its link to the M56 has made it very easy and quick to drive to Manchester Airport, especially if the journey is off peak. A typical road journey between Manchester Airport and Llandudno will take approximately 1 hour 20 minutes. In contrast, the same journey made by rail will take approximately 2 hours 35 minutes, and involve a change of train at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Starmill]

From The Cambrian, ATW advise to change at Salop and Crewe.
We are about to book for May and don't see a problem with that.

The connection at Wilmslow / Crewe to the Northern service via Manchester Airport from the South Wales service is very unreliable.

The last two or three times I've been returning to Mauldeth Road from Crewe I've boarded the ATW to change at Wilmslow for either the 1956, 2056 or 2155 departures via Manchester Airport. The train has been running 10 minutes late, I've mentioned to the guard that it looks like I'm going to miss the connection and they've just gone "meh, nowt to do with me, it's a Northern service." It's of course only hourly, so nice wait at Wilmslow in the dark...

That said increasing Wilmslow - Manchester Airport to 2 trains an hour all day would go a good way to reducing this problem.

 

[merlodlliw]

Does anyone have any figures to tell us how many people from North Wales actually travel to Ringway each year?

I have no idea,it must be many hundreds of thousands,The local Taxis in Wrexham run shuttles to Man Airport 24 hours a day, I also am also aware a shuttle service runs from almost all major North Wales towns.

 

[DarloRich]

English airports would be rather empty without all the planes with Welsh (Airbus) wings.

touché

 

[merlodlliw]

Perhaps the absence of Welsh language signs at Picc confuses them.

This is 2015,Welsh speakers in North Wales are able to speak English,it may not be the first language in Gwynedd and West Wales, but ive yet to meet anyone not able to speak English at Man Airport from North Wales.
Bi Lingual (ATW)timetables are available at Piccadilly station and Man Airport.

 

[Starmill]

How much signage in languages other than English is there at Manchester Airport though? You go to other major European Airports and signage is provided in the local language, English and one or two of French German or Spanish etc. In the UK? Do we have any Airports with signage in other European languages?

 

[northwichcat]

There are far more destinations served from Manchester Airport than from Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

But if you're too infirm to be able to make a change of train then I can't see how you'd be able to use an airport as big as Manchester Airport. You might be OK doing Liverpool to Pisa. However, someone infirm doing Manchester to New York (JfK)?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But if you're too infirm to be able to make a change of train then I can't see how you'd be able to use an airport as big as Manchester Airport. You might be OK doing Liverpool to Pisa. However, someone infirm doing Manchester to New York (JfK)?

T3 at Manchester is very awkward from the station (distance and changing levels)
T1 is not quite as bad, but still awkward because of the levels
T2 is easy (all on one level once you reach the walkway).

Liverpool is simpler but doesn't do long haul and far fewer short haul routes.
And then for the infirm it's an inconvenient bus ride from South Parkway.

 

[northwichcat]

From the article last line linked on the first page

The point I was making is they can't appeal to ORR because it wasn't an ORR decision, it was a Network Rail one.
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Liverpool is simpler but doesn't do long haul and far fewer short haul routes.
And then for the infirm it's an inconvenient bus ride from South Parkway.

Yep so if there was a new station built at the Airport and a North Wales-Liverpool via Liverpool Airport service that could better suit the needs of the infirm wanting to get between North Wales and Europe.

By direct train Rhyl is 2 hours from Manchester Airport and 2.5 hours from London, so you could argue a direct service to Gatwick or Heathrow would be better if you're talking about range of destinations opposed to travelling distance.

 

[berneyarms]

Trying to compare Manchester airport with Liverpool airport is really stretching things. Liverpool is a short haul airport served by low cost airlines, with a much more restricted list of destinations when compared with Manchester which has an extensive mix of long haul and short haul destinations served by many major carriers.

Similarly, commenting on the access from stations to airport terminals like this is also somewhat irrelevant, given that if people drive they will have access issues to get to the same terminals from the car parks.

Bottom line is that every time you necessitate people changing trains, people are less likely to use them, particularly when they have luggage and/or children in tow. The aim ought to be to have a wide selection of routes served directly from Manchester airport, given its status as the main international airport for the north (be that England or Wales).

Why not have Chester & North Wales served every two hours directly from the Airport, alternating with another route?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Liverpool is simpler but doesn't do long haul and far fewer short haul routes.
And then for the infirm it's an inconvenient bus ride from South Parkway.

This is the very point that I endeavoured to make in a recent posting on this thread, which I thought to be self-explanatory when I committed it to print.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bottom line is that every time you necessitate people changing trains, people are less likely to use them, particularly when they have luggage and/or children in tow. The aim ought to be to have a wide selection of routes served directly from Manchester airport, given its status as the main international airport for the north (be that England or Wales).

Yet there still are those on this website who still feel that Manchester Piccadilly station should be the next Evercreech Junction.....for those on here old enough to recognise that meaning.

 

[northwichcat]

Trying to compare Manchester airport with Liverpool airport is really stretching things.

You're missing the point. If passengers are too infirm to change trains, how are they supposed to be able to get between Manchester Airport station and the terminal they are using? If people are that infirm then flying between smaller airports will be better for them as a lot less walking is required. If a shopper was too infirm to use the Trafford Centre would you tell them they have to use the Trafford Centre because the smaller shopping centres have less shops?

Passengers going between North Wales and Manchester Airport can alight the North Wales service at Piccadilly platform 13 and board the Blackpool-Airport service a few minutes later from the same platform. The same thing also works in the other direction. If said passenger is too infirm to do they then they won't be able to use Manchester Airport. Now the real problem is Journey Planners will see that connection time at Piccadilly as being too low (despite a guarantee that'll be the same platform) so will recommend changing at Oxford Rd (which may involve a change of platform.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In 2007[1] there were approximately 1.25 million air passengers originating from North Wales. 816,000 (65%) of these used Manchester.

How many of those traveled directly to the Airport and didn't spend a night in a hotel/B&B closer to the Airport?

I recently encountered a group of Scottish passengers on a Mid-Cheshire line service with suitcases and talking about going to the Airport. Some people, including myself, thought they had got on the wrong train (there had been an announcement of a platform alteration involving a stopping service to the Airport.) However, it turns out they were on the correct train as they were going to to the Travelodge in Altrincham for the night before going to the Airport the next morning.

 

[berneyarms]

You're missing the point. If passengers are too infirm to change trains, how are they supposed to be able to get between Manchester Airport station and the terminal they are using? If people are that infirm then flying between smaller airports will be better for them as a lot less walking is required. If a shopper was too infirm to use the Trafford Centre would you tell them they have to use the Trafford Centre because the smaller shopping centres have less shops?

Passengers going between North Wales and Manchester Airport can alight the North Wales service at Piccadilly platform 13 and board the Blackpool-Airport service a few minutes later from the same platform. The same thing also works in the other direction. If said passenger is too infirm to do they then they won't be able to use Manchester Airport. Now the real problem is Journey Planners will see that connection time at Piccadilly as being too low (despite a guarantee that'll be the same platform) so will recommend changing at Oxford Rd (which may involve a change of platform.)

I am not missing the point at all. I'm not talking about infirm passengers. In fact I never mentioned them. I was talking about anyone travelling with a number of suitcases or with children, but indeed that can include older people. Changing trains in those circumstances is not easy. It is well known that the more times people have to change, the less likely that they are to make a trip using public transport and rather will use their car.

I'm merely making the point that perhaps the current plan isn't necessarily the best solution to serving Manchester Airport and that maybe it should be looked at again with direct services to/from Chester & North Wales being included perhaps every two hours, alternating with somewhere else.

 

[northwichcat]

I am not missing the point at all. I'm not talking about infirm passengers.

The only reason Liverpool airport was brought up was because the difficulty of the elderly and infirm changing trains in Manchester was mentioned, so it to me it still sounds like you missed the original point when you started a post saying "Trying to compare Manchester airport with Liverpool airport is really stretching things."

that maybe it should be looked at again with direct services to/from Chester & North Wales being included perhaps every two hours, alternating with somewhere else.

If you do that you might create more problems than you solve. For instance, if you said Edinburgh trains will continue to the Airport but Glasgow trains will not it might be existing TPE patronage will be lost and a lower number of ATW passengers are conveyed in lieu.

 

[Llanigraham]

The only reason Liverpool airport was brought up was because the difficulty of the elderly and infirm changing trains in Manchester was mentioned, so it to me it still sounds like you missed the original point when you started a post saying "Trying to compare Manchester airport with Liverpool airport is really stretching things."

The 2 airports are not comparable!
I cannot fly to the USA or Canada from Liverpool, for example.

 

[ivanhoe]

The car will always win hands down from North Wales to Manchester Airport. The A55 and M56 will get you there quicker than any train as it would be if you lived in many parts of Liverpool. The figures of transport patronage quoted in a previous post would suggest that even if there were direct trains, I doubt there would be a large increase in train patronage. There are limited paths available but the area that the Airport serves is geographically quite large. As for passengers who require assistance ( I dislike the patronizing term of old and infirm) a taxi or a drop off by families and friends will always be the mode of choice. For those who choose to travel by train, I would argue that a simple change at Piccadilly is easily manageable.

 

[northwichcat]

The 2 airports are not comparable!
I cannot fly to the USA or Canada from Liverpool, for example.

And how many infirm passengers from North Wales get flights to the USA or Canada from Manchester?

There's actually very few Airports in North America you can get a direct flight to from Manchester, while there's none in South America and Australia.

 

[Llanigraham]

And how many infirm passengers from North Wales get flights to the USA or Canada from Manchester?

There's actually very few Airports in North America you can get a direct flight to from Manchester, while there's none in South America and Australia.

I don't know, or care for that matter, and I don't see why it keeps being brought up.
The question at the beginning of this thread was why there are no trains to Manchester Airport from North Wales. It has since been derailed by this reference to "infirm" passengers.

We are flying to Toronto soon and I had the choice of 3 departures, Manchester, Heathrow and Gatwick. Even with 2 changes Manchester won hands down. And the rail price beats the car parking charges as well!
Plus the hotel we will have to stay overnight will pick us up from the station and take us to the airport early the next morning.

 

[northwichcat]

The question at the beginning of this thread was why there are no trains to Manchester Airport from North Wales.

No it's not as that's incorrect.

There is a daily return working between Llandudno and Manchester Airport, as well as two daily return workings between Chester and Manchester Airport (which if were at the right time could reduce your 2 changes to 1 change.)

The question is why can't ATW get rights to operate more than 3 return workings per day. The answer is Network Rail can't guarantee those paths to ATW for the long term until the December 2017 timetable is known. These kind of problems occur all the time - LM have had applications rejected because it isn't know how long free paths will be free from until the next WCML recast.

I don't know, or care for that matter, and I don't see why it keeps being brought up.

People (including yourself) keep bringing up Liverpool Airport vs Manchester Airport when Liverpool was only brought up as an alternative for infirm passengers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would hazard a guess that more people from North Wales (includes Chester and other ATW stations in the corridor) use Manchester Airport than people from Scotland, who seem to have the prime paths.
All ATW/WG wants is fair treatment over airport access.
3 paths at daft-o'clock is not "fair".

 

[Merseysider]

I would hazard a guess that more people from North Wales (includes Chester and other ATW stations in the corridor) use Manchester Airport than people from Scotland, who seem to have the prime paths.
All ATW/WG wants is fair treatment over airport access.
3 paths at daft-o'clock is not "fair".

That's a fair enough point, Carlisle gets an hourly direct and anywhere north thereof an alternating bi-hourly. Glasgow and Edinburgh even have their own airports.

If getting paths between MAN and MIA is the problem, why haven't they got CRE-WML-MIA paths, which are less crowded?

 

[Llanigraham]

I give up!!
People need to read what is actually written not what they think is written!!

 

[northwichcat]

All ATW/WG wants is fair treatment over airport access.

Note the Scottish paths were actually obtained in the 1990s albeit not for Scottish services. First North Western had them for a 2 hourly Airport-Barrow service and a 2 hourly Airport-Windermere service. It was due to SRA cutbacks that meant the Airport-Windermere services were diverted to Scotland, then due to increased patronage and electrification Barrow services got cut back to allow an hourly Airport-Scotland service.

It must have been at the time FNW decided Holyhead/Llandudno-Airport wasn't as viable. They did used to run some peak time services as Chester-Warrington-Manchester-Altrincham-Chester or the reverse to avoid the shunting movement from ex-Chester via Warrington services.

How many Welsh politicians were pushing for an Airport rail link when the Bolton corridor services got extended to the Airport in the 1990s?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I give up!!
People need to read what is actually written not what they think is written!!

Would you join a council meeting part way through and start objecting to something you heard mentioned as you walked in without checking on the context it was being referred to in?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If getting paths between MAN and MIA is the problem, why haven't they got CRE-WML-MIA paths, which are less crowded?

Have ATW ever applied for such paths?

If they wanted to they could apply to operate a South Wales-Manchester Airport-Manchester-Warrington-North Wales. That way they aren't asking for additional services through Slade Lane Junction as they're asking for a Wilmslow-Airport-Piccadilly instead of a Wilmslow-Stockport-Piccadilly one.

 

[D1009]

Surely the question that should be asked is what proportion of the use or potential use of Manchester Airport by rail passengers is from Wales, rather than which Airport is the most popular choice for those people. As others have pointed out, it's impossible to have trains to Manchester Airport from everywhere.

 

[Philip C]

There's actually very few Airports in North America you can get a direct flight to from Manchester, while there's none in South America and Australia.

According to the Manchester Airport web-site there are 7 direct destinations in the USA, 3 in Canada, 1 in Mexico and a further 9 in the Caribbean. Some are better than daily whilst others are at significantly greater intervals; nevertheless a total of 20 (or 10/11 if you wish to exclude the Caribbean) is, in my book, not 'actually' very few.

If you would care to access the Airport web-site (under the heading Airport Accessibility) you will find, as you would expect in the modern world, extensive and detailed information concerning how to access assistance for 'disabled customers and customers with reduced mobility'. It includes the following:

"Getting to the Airport by Bus/Metrolink/Train/Coach

On arrival at the Ground Transport Interchange you can contact our service provider OCS by using the designated Assistance Points provided. These easily identifiable blue totems identified as Assistance Points. Please press ‘Help’ and wait to be connected to an Agent."

I know that the system works as my mother has made use of the facilities.

Can we please have an end to this discussion about where human beings who happen to be disabled should and should not go?

 

[northwichcat]

According to the Manchester Airport web-site there are 7 direct destinations in the USA, 3 in Canada, 1 in Mexico and a further 9 in the Caribbean. Some are better than daily whilst others are at significantly greater intervals; nevertheless a total of 20 (or 10/11 if you wish to exclude the Caribbean) is, in my book, not 'actually' very few.

What I was meaning is very few compared to the number of international airports in North America with services to Europe. Canada is the second largest country in the world so 3 direct links isn't that impressive, especially considering not all links operate every day.

 

[Philip C]

What I was meaning is very few compared to the number of international airports in North America with services to Europe. Canada is the second largest country in the world so 3 direct links isn't that impressive, especially considering not all links operate every day.

In as much as I can interpret the CAA statistics for Manchester, in 2014, there were 155,435 journeys on flights to/from Canada and 1,310,431 on flights to/from the USA.

Whether you are impressed or not I leave to your discretion.

 

[edwin_m]

The point I was making is they can't appeal to ORR because it wasn't an ORR decision, it was a Network Rail one.

ORR regulates Network Rail and TOCs who feel unfairly treated by track access contracts etc can appeal to ORR.

 

[Holly]

The real solution is to build that link from Manchester Airport to the Mid-Cheshire line.
Then people travelling from airport to Chester would have a better alternative than through Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

In as much as I can interpret the CAA statistics for Manchester, in 2014, there were 155,435 journeys on flights to/from Canada and 1,310,431 on flights to/from the USA.

Whether you are impressed or not I leave to your discretion.

We're talking cross purposes here.

Llanigraham was claiming you can't fly to the USA or Canada from Liverpool but there's only a relatively small number of USA and Canada airports with direct Manchester flights and even if there is a direct flight it might not operate on the day you want to travel, so you might have to travel via another airport if travelling to somewhere in the USA or Canada from Manchester. KLM, Aer Lingus, BA and others all offer Manchester to USA/Canada fares via another airport. (The Liverpool option via Amsterdam is to restart after an agreement between Flybe and KLM.)

Your stats don't say how many people taking, for instance, Manchester-Toronto flights then took an onward flight from Toronto.