No Welsh Trains to Manchester Airport (Now approved until December 2017)

[craigybagel]

How much bigger would you consider the 'numbers you quoted - ie a few to 15 - 20 might become if ATW provided direct services in respect of this flow based on what you have seen?

No idea! All I know is what I've observed working the line regularly. Presumably a direct service would encourage more traffic but I've no idea how much. As connections go the current arrangement at wilmslow is fairly convenient, all it really needs is a ramp/lift to platform 1 and it'd be perfect.

 

[kieron]

Bradford, Halifax & Rochdale probably provide more passengers for Manchester Airport than Chester & North Wales and also need the links to Piccadilly provided by the Ordsall curve.

I certainly agree with the first bit. I'm a bit vaguer on why York needs 2tph to the airport with identical calling patterns, although I'm not even sure if that's intended to remain long-term.

I think the fact that Newton-le-Willows and Warrington will have Airport trains anyway counts against direct access from North Wales.

Having said that both areas should have direct services. Could North Wales services travel via Crewe instead of Piccadilly, or would running right across the WCML cause too much disruption?

A train from Chester going towards Manchester Airport would be much like the current Cardiff-Manchester trains, except that they would only be able to use platform 6 in either direction (rather than having a choice of 5 or 6), and would reverse there.

If you diverted the North Wales-Manchester trains to Manchester Airport via Crewe and Wilmslow, it would need two more 175s and release one 150 currently used on the Chester-Crewe shuttle.

The new Chester-Manchester Picadilly trains would have to leave Chester 3 minutes later and arrive there 3 minutes earlier than at present to offer a valid connection at Chester. The westbound train currently joins the WCML 5 minutes after a Virgin train, so this would eat into the margin and remove valid connections from Scotland to Wales. There's more slack in the eastbound train's timetable.

I feel such a move could upset some people.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I certainly agree with the first bit. I'm a bit vaguer on why York needs 2tph to the airport with identical calling patterns, although I'm not even sure if that's intended to remain long-term.

Would this be anything to do with the Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport service being one of these two services and the other being the York to Manchester Airport service that seemed to come into being when the Newcastle to Manchester Airport service was changed to that of a Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street service?

Either way, it offers a large city such as Leeds such a service provision to Manchester Airport. I cannot see why Leeds, being a major transport hub in its own right, should lose such a service provision in future years.

 

[PHILIPE]

When I was in work, I remember round about 2000 talk about a chord being built from the Mid-Cheshire Line to the Airport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When I was in work, I remember round about 2000 talk about a chord being built from the Mid-Cheshire Line to the Airport.

Did the SRA have anything to do with the matter mentioned above?

 

[PHILIPE]

Did the SRA have anything to do with the matter mentioned above?

May have done. I don't know other than it didn't get off the ground.

 

[edwin_m]

It was certainly considered in the Greater Manchester Strategic Rail Study in 2000 or 2001. I was involved in other parts of the study but I don't know where that bit came from.

 

[northwichcat]

It was certainly considered in the Greater Manchester Strategic Rail Study in 2000 or 2001. I was involved in other parts of the study but I don't know where that bit came from.

It was included in a Cheshire County Council report from 1994 or 1995 so it might be GMPTE thought the idea already proposed was worth examining further.

My understanding is the cost of building it can't be justified just for local services, so it requires the Airport-Piccadilly line to be at maximum capacity before it can be built so there are wider benefits.

 

[Envoy]

Surely it would help Chester - at least - if the Northern Rail MAN > MIA > Crewe service were combined with the ATW Crewe to Chester service?

I am sure that a new link from the Mid Cheshire line into Manchester Airport would be the best solution.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely it would help Chester - at least - if the Northern Rail MAN > MIA > Crewe service were combined with the ATW Crewe to Chester service?

Wait for all the complaints about running a DMU under the wires. :roll:

Although, I'm not sure it'll be possible due to pathing constraints.

 

[Class 170101]

Wait for all the complaints about running a DMU under the wires. :roll:

Although, I'm not sure it'll be possible due to pathing constraints.

Wasn't it metioned above about platforming at Crewe something like on 5 and 6 could be used for this purpose?

 

[craigybagel]

Wasn't it metioned above about platforming at Crewe something like on 5 and 6 could be used for this purpose?

6 only. Chester line is only accessible from 6,9,10,11 and 12. Wilmslow is only from 1,5 and 6.

 

[Holly]

Surely it would help Chester - at least - if the Northern Rail MAN > MIA > Crewe service were combined with the ATW Crewe to Chester service?

I am sure that a new link from the Mid Cheshire line into Manchester Airport would be the best solution.

Absolutely, that would solve very many problems.

 

[craigybagel]

Absolutely, that would solve very many problems.

And create many many more.

 

[krus_aragon]

See the attached image, showing the track layout at Crewe station (taken from NR's baseline declaration). The only platform you can get to from both Manchester and Chester is platform 6. Getting there involves crossing both the Up and Down Fast lines at 20mph, in-between Pendolinos flying through at 80mph. A timetabler's nightmare.

(Note that the diagram only shows track and points; not signals, overlaps etc.)

 

[kieron]

Either way, it offers a large city such as Leeds such a service provision to Manchester Airport. I cannot see why Leeds, being a major transport hub in its own right, should lose such a service provision in future years.

I'm not arguing that either way (even though I note that you appear to have conflated trains to Leeds with trains to York). What I meant was that I don't know what service patterns are consistent with the ITT.

I suspect this sort of information may be buried somewhere in the thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not arguing that either way (even though I note that you appear to have conflated trains to Leeds with trains to York).

Only in the sense that York-bound trains actually have to pass through Leeds when coming from the Manchester area.

 

[kieron]

See the attached image, showing the track layout at Crewe station (taken from NR's baseline declaration). The only platform you can get to from both Manchester and Chester is platform 6. Getting there involves crossing both the Up and Down Fast lines at 20mph, in-between Pendolinos flying through at 80mph. A timetabler's nightmare.

Maybe once it was. The only trains which use the fast lines at Crewe now are the fast Glasgow trains once an hour, the sleeper twice a day, and some of the freight trains which use the station.

This should make them far easier to cross than the up slow and the bit of the Crewe-Manchester line beyond it which the train would have to cover the "wrong" way.

 

[craigybagel]

Maybe once it was. The only trains which use the fast lines at Crewe now are the fast Glasgow trains once an hour, the sleeper twice a day, and some of the freight trains which use the station.

This should make them far easier to cross than the up slow and the bit of the Crewe-Manchester line beyond it which the train would have to cover the "wrong" way.

Come down to Crewe some day and have a look at how long it can take the southbound Manchester-South Wales services to get across at present - then you'd see that it's not that simple. It's usually not the flyers that hold things up - it's the trains that stop but still have to get in and out of the station that cause trouble. Trying to thread another hourly service each way across with only one platform to play with would be a nightmare, especially given how busy that one platform already is.

 

[D1009]

Also, platform 6 is I believe the only platform the S Wales to Manchester service can use, and this departs directly in front of the Crewe Manchester Airport service.

The Chester service uses platform 9 which is used by little else, and the Manchester stoppers use platform 1, also used by little else.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also, platform 6 is I believe the only platform the S Wales to Manchester service can use, and this departs directly in front of the Crewe Manchester Airport service.

I think Shrewsbury-Manchester trains can reach P5 as well.
In the first version of the VHF timetable, the ATW Manchester trains used P5 and the VTs used P6, but after a year they swapped round to avoid conflicting paths into the station.

 

[craigybagel]

Manchester-Shrewsbury can use 5 or 6 in both directions, but almost all services use 6. The northbound runs at around xx:30, and Platform 5 has VT London services around XX:25 and XX:30 which rule it out. Southbound it runs around XX:08, and Platform 5 again has the VT London via West Midlands around XX:01, and the VT Manchester at XX:11.

 

[PHILIPE]

Correct. South Wales to Manchesters can use Platform 5 also, and several are booked. Chester locals may use 10 also.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The 1985 re model of Crewe was based on the assumption that trains from Shrewsbury would all continue to terminate there. There was roughly a two hourly Cardiff to Crewe service interwoven with a two hourly all stations to Shrewsbury service of which a couple ran through from Aberystwyth.

 

[fowler9]

And how many infirm passengers from North Wales get flights to the USA or Canada from Manchester?

There's actually very few Airports in North America you can get a direct flight to from Manchester, while there's none in South America and Australia.

Are there any direct flights from anywhere in the UK to Australia? Maybe Qantas but depending on your destination you may still have to get off the plane in Dubai. If you can't change trains I wouldn't recommend that kind of flight anyway.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Are there any direct flights from anywhere in the UK to Australia? Maybe Qantas but depending on your destination you may still have to get off the plane in Dubai. If you can't change trains I wouldn't recommend that kind of flight anyway.

You may have to change planes but you don't need to drag all your luggage with you as that is transferred directly to the next flight.

Handy if you have a few young children and lots of luggage which they can't carry themselves. You don't see many luggage trolleys at Platform 14 at Piccadilly.

 

[fowler9]

You may have to change planes but you don't need to drag all your luggage with you as that is transferred directly to the next flight.

Handy if you have a few young children and lots of luggage which they can't carry themselves. You don't see many luggage trolleys at Platform 14 at Piccadilly.

I take that on board, ha ha, but most people starting their journey in London have to do that anyway. There are naff all direct trains to Heathrow and Gatwick from most of the country. It just sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

If changing trains is a problem for you then long haul flight is going to be a pretty major issue. Have you ever flown long haul? I don't mean that in an insulting way. Just that if you find changing trains difficult 12 or 13 hours in economy is going to be pretty insurmountable.

 

[krus_aragon]

If changing trains is a problem for you then long haul flight is going to be a pretty major issue. Have you ever flown long haul? I don't mean that in an insulting way. Just that if you find changing trains difficult 12 or 13 hours in economy is going to be pretty insurmountable.

I'd describe them as contrasting isssues. My personal experience is that it's the inability to move around on a long-haul (7~8hrs) flight that gets to me. The more spacious train invites you to stretch out or amble down to the buffet/bathroom. (I'd also prefer changing trains/planes to being cooped up for so long.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You may have to change planes but you don't need to drag all your luggage with you as that is transferred directly to the next flight.

Handy if you have a few young children and lots of luggage which they can't carry themselves. You don't see many luggage trolleys at Platform 14 at Piccadilly.

I wonder if any of the contributors to this thread have been in a situation where mid-journey luggage transhipment was the case on a long-haul journey and when final arrival at the intended destination saw no luggage forthcoming owing to an error of luggage transhipment, as this happened to one of my sons and his family some years ago. Fortunately, matters were resolved in a couple of days, in which fresh clothing had to be purchased to cover the interim time period.

 

[krus_aragon]

I wonder if any of the contributors to this thread have been in a situation where mid-journey luggage transhipment was the case on a long-haul journey and when final arrival at the intended destination saw no luggage forthcoming owing to an error of luggage transhipment, as this happened to one of my sons and his family some years ago. Fortunately, matters were resolved in a couple of days, in which fresh clothing had to be purchased to cover the interim time period.

I've had something slightly similar. Around the time restrictions on liquids in hand luggage were introduced, I had to repack our bags at Luton airport prior to flying out to Athens. Although the repacked bags were accepted at the check-in desk, one didn't make it to the plane on time, and was due to be sent on to us in Athens the next day. We were sailing out to one of the islands that morning, so the airline arranged for the bag to be conveyed out to the island's airport the day after we got there. A friend kindly drove to the airport to collect it for us.