Could Scotland afford full fiscal autonomy?

[Jonny]

They might end up being given full fiscal autonomy anyway - as part of an English votes for English laws scheme (or English, Welsh and Northern Irish votes for English, Welsh and Northern Irish laws scheme) that sees a budget for Eng./Wal./N. Ire. with tax rates set accordingly, and Scotland left to set its own taxes.

Personally I would love to watch the resultant carnage - joker-style. Why so serious?

 

[radamfi]

You seem to be forgetting that Scotland had to join the Union because it was bankrupt. So the rest of the UK bailed Scotland out.

Eh? Am I missing something here? The union between Scotland and England happened in 1707.

 

[ainsworth74]

Eh? Am I missing something here? The union between Scotland and England happened in 1707.

Basically Scotland and England became a Union in 1707 because in the years previously Scotland (and particularly Scottish Nobles) had lost a lot of money on a failed attempt to set up a colony in Central America. One of the motivations for unifying was to deal with the economic consequences of that failure.

 

[radamfi]

But that was over 300 years ago! Surely nobody thinks that has any relevance to Scotland's ability to govern itself today?

 

[Dave1987]

But that was over 300 years ago! Surely nobody thinks that has any relevance to Scotland's ability to govern itself today?

If Scotland was to gain independence today and continue the SNP's public spending plans the would be running a £7.5bn deficit each year.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes Scotland can afford full fiscal independence but it will have to "cut its cloth" accordingly. Without the English subsidy lots of the SNP cherished polices wont be deliverable.

There is also the question as to whether, or not, there are enough Scottish people in Scotland in high paying jobs (or even in work!) to generate the level of taxation income needed to deliver the SNP agenda. This isn't meant to be a sarky comment; the middle to high earners in Scotland would have to carry this burden tax wise.

Oh and you need to pay us back for the 500 years of loans & take on your fair share of the national debt.

 

[reb0118]

What money is this you keep on about? You seem to be forgetting that Scotland had to join the Union because it was bankrupt. So the rest of the UK bailed Scotland out.

Eh? Am I missing something here? The union between Scotland and England happened in 1707.

Basically Scotland and England became a Union in 1707 because in the years previously Scotland (and particularly Scottish Nobles) had lost a lot of money on a failed attempt to set up a colony in Central America. One of the motivations for unifying was to deal with the economic consequences of that failure.

Scotland did NOT have to join any union with England. However the consequences of not doing so would have been dire - there was even a potential for war. England's main aim at that time was securing her back door against French or other continental invasion as Scotland had not decided who it was going to choose as monarch after the death of Anne, or the death of any (unlikely) heirs of her body.

The stakes at that time were not just financial but also geopolitic. England did not just bale out Scotland (one could argue that as a consequence of having a shared monarch in William II/III England played its part in causing these financial problems that required our baling out?) but in my opinion paid, and a paltry sum at that, to secure her northern border against attack. England was right to do so as can you imagine how the Jacobite invasions would have fared with the full backing of the Scottish State? Remember it came close to toppling German Geordie as a mere uprising.

All this of course is history but we should remember that it helps to create the myth of Scottish dependence on England. We do not need England but at times we have definitely been better off in the Union. Scotland, as England too, has a proud history an an independent nation and also as part of the United Kingdom.

Modern Scotland is nothing like the Scotland of the early eighteenth century. The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As others have said, the 1707 unification was just as beneficial to England as it was to Scotland. And an agreed unification was better than a costly war that would probably have led to unification anyway.

I'm pretty sure we had all these arguments- all of which boil down to "you won't survive without me"- when Eire split off in the 20s, or when most of the Empire declared independence in the 50s.

Scotland won't be a superpower, but there's nothing to show that they wouldn't mark out a nice enough life, just like the other small states of Europe have managed to.

FWIW I think the EU would admit Scotland; the only country that would be uneasy would be Spain, and that's only because they don't want the Basques and the Catalans getting similar ideas.

 

[radamfi]

I think the Scottish question makes a "No" vote in the EU referendum more unlikely, as there will be outrage in Scotland if they are forced to pull out of the EU against their will.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I think the Scottish question makes a "No" vote in the EU referendum more unlikely, as there will be outrage in Scotland if they are forced to pull out of the EU against their will.

I certainly agree with this. It's mostly the English who want rid, and I could go on for a while as to why that's the case but much of it comes down to too much living in the past for a lot of people.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Don't really see what the problem is with London handing over a few billion extra to Scotland for a few years.
Nobody seemed to mind the Falklands or Northern Ireland getting kept afloat financially.
What money did they ever bring to the table.
Scotland would only be getting it's own oil money back that was ripped off us in years past.

Actually many of us do mind.
The Falklands and NI can go their own ways when they vote for it. When the Nationalists get a majority perhaps they would vote to join Ireland which would seem reasonable to me - if Ireland would want to take on NI.
Jeff

 

[TheKnightWho]

Actually many of us do mind.
The Falklands and NI can go their own ways when they vote for it. When the Nationalists get a majority perhaps they would vote to join Ireland which would seem reasonable to me - if Ireland would want to take on NI.
Jeff

NI will leave the Union as it stands when hell freezes over. On the other hand, whether they'd leave a union without Scotland and Wales is a different story altogether. Joining Ireland would be no certainty either.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Sorry Dave, i didn't realise part of the deal was to bow down before our imperial masters.
Better Together and all that.

Yes the grateful comment was insensitive.
But remember an independent Scotland tried but failed to create it's own Empire but failed then joined in union with England and Wales and enthusiastically joined in creating British Empires.
I would guess the Nationalists will get independence when the people accept they will have no less cash but it seems to me that the people should vote for independence if they really want it regardless of the dowry or financial settlement. After all Ireland seems to do OK as a nation within the EU.
Jeff
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Eh? Am I missing something here? The union between Scotland and England happened in 1707.

Yes you are missing something.
Scotland was bankrupt following their failed attempt to create an Empire in the Americas.
I wouldn't mind going back to the pre 1707 situation but without the continual raids into England to bag booty.)
Jeff
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But that was over 300 years ago! Surely nobody thinks that has any relevance to Scotland's ability to govern itself today?

Of course Scotland could govern itself as a truly independent nation. As soon as a majority of people living in Scotland want it they will have it and good luck to them.

 

[St Rollox]

The Tory government in London would be well advised to tread very carefully regarding Scotland.
English Nationalism doesn't cut it north of the border even among their own handful of supporters.
Talk about austerity cuts just pushes us to the very edge.
Control of welfare benefits should be handed over to Edinburgh as soon as.
Along with a very large cheque.
Maybe then Scottish anger just might ease off.
Get it done Dave.

 

[CC 72100]

Control of welfare benefits should be handed over to Edinburgh as soon as.

Alright then, but how about fully funded by Scottish taxpayers, no running back to Westminster when the money has run out/the SNP has spent everything?

Oh wait...

Along with a very large cheque.

If Scotland is so good and so powerful enough that it can cope on it's own, surely it doesn't need said large cheque?

You seem to advocate full devolution of powers but with rest of UK money providing a safety net, in other words, spending in Scotland, can do what they like, spend spend spend spend, chargeable to the Northern Irish/Welsh/English taxpayer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe then Scottish anger just might ease off.
Get it done Dave.

Attitude like that may push English nationalism over the edge too.

 

[St Rollox]

Something that doesn't cost a penny to hand over to the Edinburgh parliament would be control of broadcasting.
That might some way in stopping the bias shown by the BBC in regards to Scottish politics.

 

[Johnuk123]

Talk about austerity cuts just pushes us to the very edge.

Well you'd better get a good rope then because you'll be well over that edge very soon.

 

[St Rollox]

London created the Edinburgh parliament.
What's the problem with properly funding it?

 

[HilversumNS]

The Tory government in London would be well advised to tread very carefully regarding Scotland.
English Nationalism doesn't cut it north of the border even among their own handful of supporters.
Talk about austerity cuts just pushes us to the very edge.
Control of welfare benefits should be handed over to Edinburgh as soon as.
Along with a very large cheque.
Maybe then Scottish anger just might ease off.
Get it done Dave.

This almost suggests that the Scots voted NO last year because they were relying on a change of government in Westminster in the general election. A risky strategy at best!!

How come they are suddenly angry? The mood must have changed between September 2014 and now. Did they not realise that another Tory government would continue with more or less the same policies?

From someone who lives in England, it looks to me like the SNP are a greedy bunch of money-grabbing selfish unreasonable so-and-so's. I wonder if someone from NI, Wales or England will start a petition on direct.gov.uk to split from Scotland.

 

[NSEFAN]

London created the Edinburgh parliament.
What's the problem with properly funding it?

In what way is it not funded properly? Is is that Scotland is paying more to the treasury than it's getting back? This seems to be the fundamental point underpinning the entire Scottish Independence debate.

 

[Noddy]

Something that doesn't cost a penny to hand over to the Edinburgh parliament would be control of broadcasting.
That might some way in stopping the bias shown by the BBC in regards to Scottish politics.

The BBC is probably the most unbiased news organisation in world. The Left thinks it's too Right wing. The Right thinks it's too Left wing. The Green lobby hate its because it'll ask a global warming sceptic for views on climate change. The global warming sceptics hate it for reporting green issues and global warming. I could go on but you get the point....

The BBC is not there to promote the SNP, Labour, Tories, Lib Dems et al. Or to promote Scottish, Welsh, Catalan or any other type of Independence. It is there to report the news, as its strict guidelines require. Does it get everything right? No it doesn't. But does this mean there is a bias? No it doesn't.

I would suggest that when looking for bias you consider your own views and then critically assess them.

 

[Dave1987]

The Tory government in London would be well advised to tread very carefully regarding Scotland.
English Nationalism doesn't cut it north of the border even among their own handful of supporters.
Talk about austerity cuts just pushes us to the very edge.
Control of welfare benefits should be handed over to Edinburgh as soon as.
Along with a very large cheque.
Maybe then Scottish anger just might ease off.
Get it done Dave.

So you definitely want your cake and to eat it then! You want to be able to hand out as much welfare money as you want and expect the rest of the UK to pay for it? There isnt anyone in the rest of the UK would stand for that. If you want FFA or independence then fine but you pay for your welfare bill through what you get in from taxation from the people and businesses in Scotland. I truly cannot believe you are demanding that the rest of the UK pay for your colossal welfare spending proposals. I truly hope that people with opinions like yours are a minority in Scotland else I rapidly see myself wishing for Scotland to be completely independent with no currency backed by the BoE.
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I wonder if someone from NI, Wales or England will start a petition on direct.gov.uk to split from Scotland.

It highly tempting to create an e-petition demanding that Scotland is forced to go independent as some in Scotland clearly hate England. Definitely biting the hand that feeds them.

 

[Noddy]

Any one noticed how St Rollox says very little on the railway forums but has lots to say on Scottish Independence?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well you'd better get a good rope then because you'll be well over that edge very soon.

It's always lovely to see people gleeful at the idea of others being worse off.

How very English of you.

 

[cb a1]

Any one noticed how St Rollox says very little on the railway forums but has lots to say on Scottish Independence?

and how many people rise to take his bait?

St Rollox is neither the official spokesperson for the SNP nor for anyone else, but him, who lives in Scotland.

There are a number of posts in this thread which are very anti-English, anti-British and anti-Scottish. Please can we calm it down, or at least direct the anger towards the individuals who deserve it rather than tarring all people living in one of the four nations of the UK with the same brush.

I'm an Englishman living in Scotland and an SNP and Scottish Independence supporter. I am not going to defend their record on everything, but they are not anti-English; I would ditch them in a second if they were.

 

[HilversumNS]

It highly tempting to create an e-petition demanding that Scotland is forced to go independent as some in Scotland clearly hate England. Definitely biting the hand that feeds them.

You will have to wait as they closed it before the elections and haven't got round to restarting it yet.

 

[AM9]

Any one noticed how St Rollox says very little on the railway forums but has lots to say on Scottish Independence?

He mostly talks Rollox on this thread.

 

[St Rollox]

Any one noticed how St Rollox says very little on the railway forums but has lots to say on Scottish Independence?

Putting all that together, some might say better together.
The question that was never answered on here by the admin, had Scotland voted YES would threads on Scottish railways have been put in the international forum.
The admin i thought were very diplomatic in a stiff upper lip kind of way.
They never answered.

 

[Dave1987]

I'm an Englishman living in Scotland and an SNP and Scottish Independence supporter. I am not going to defend their record on everything, but they are not anti-English; I would ditch them in a second if they were.

The SNP are perhaps the most divisive party this country has ever seen. Wants to break up the union (which I'm not bothered about) but wants BoE to guarantee their currency so basically uses the rest of the UK taxpayers as a guarantor to their wild plans on public spending. Sturgeon and the SNP repeatedly said they would lock the Tories out of Downing St even if they were the largest party after the election. They are clearly against what the majority of people in England believe in. On top of all that Sturgeon is not even an MP.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Easy way to sort it out...rebuild Hadrians Wall...that will sort out the West Lothian Question! ban the pesky Scottish from this side of the boarder