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First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

TheGrandWazoo

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Some fair points there. I'll try to be balanced though I am obviously airing some concerns.

I guess that the fact that people has tended to assume London style operations is that it's what we can see in the industry, and what is proposed for Nexus. The Kernow model may be the franchise to mere run buses in X area with minimum service requirements as you say.

The big thing is that we don't know the detail. £50m is a lot for the initial start up so does that include compensation to operators who may have commercial operations taken from them? Also, they've not said franchising will happen - they will get the powers to allow them to do it though. And what of hypothecation; will the funds raised by public transport be ringfenced for reinvestment? The last thing anyone needs is using buses to cover shortfalls elsewhere in the budget.

Clearly, the term "fiscally neutral" is key and that's the one with the most questions. The model looks like getting more passengers and increasing profit to reinvest. All very laudable. The passenger figures with a bit of working back look like a current 10.5m falling to 9.5m by 2018; they want 13m by 2023. Now, that's a tall order - a increase of 26% over 5 years against a decline of 10% over the previous 3?

Of course, the period 2012-5 is probably the worst period (given WGL's travails) so the "decline" might actually not be so great but if you're taking the CC figures at face value, then that's what it says.

The other area of interest is the idea of returns. Clearly, we don't know if CC will provide buses with an operator merely to operate, a tightly controlled London style network, a looser TOC style operation etc. However, the view would be that an operator would be looking to make c.7%; I wonder how much First are making on their Cornwall network - probably not much more than that and that's with a fairly archaic fleet. Hence why the question of patronage levels is so important.

The other concern is in terms of capability on two levels. Do they have the required skills to run a full network, as opposed to a relatively simple procurement process (as currently)?

The other capability question is on the basis of politics and largesse getting in the way of sensible decision making. I've seen countless examples over the years of some loud mouthed councillor getting buses running to some village or suburb for half a dozen pensioners when other services are getting pulled. That's the politicking; then you have the fanciful schemes that have historically frittered money away.

As an example, Somerset CC got a lot of money for Rural Bus Challenge. They created a huge Sunday network in a county that had hitherto been largely bereft. Some made a lot of sense and indeed, the funds did act as a form of pump priming seeing Sunday buses appearing in places like Wellington and Bridgwater where they had previously not run for years and now operate commercially.

However, such was the attitude, buses were appearing everywhere often with headways better than through the week. Bridgwater to Minehead, Yeovil to Chard, Shepton Mallet to Yeovil, Bath to Bridgwater..... it was madness. Then the money ran out and the services mostly disappeared; a missed chance when what could've happened was the pump priming of better bets and actually creating some sustainable networks.

That's not to say that CC will do that but it is a legitimate concern; for every good council (like Wiltshire, you seem to have a duffer like North Yorkshire). Think we need to understand the proposals in greater detail before we can say if it's a good, bad or indifferent idea
 
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317 forever

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Torpoint depot hasn't been mentioned as being transferred to Stagecoach, so I did wonder what will happen there.
Will the Plymouth vehicles be transferred as part of the sale, as has been seen in other parts of the country where First have sold an operation to Stagecoach and First liveried vehicles can be seen with Stagecoach branding.

Are the older Tridents DDA compliant? Being 1999 I don't believe they will be.

Now that Plymouth Citybus run some routes to Torpoint, I think they will be left to it without competition from Stagecoach.

I understand that no vehicles are included in the sale. Depending on how many services Stagecoach have registered compared to First, they might not need as many vehicles anyway. One irony I can think of. The E400s originally for route X9 (Exeter - Bude) were financed by Devon CC so transferred to Plymouth when Barnstaple closed. Where could they go now? As far as I can tell, the only First route running into Devon will be route X53 (Weymouth - Exeter)!

I have had another thought about First divesting other services in the south west. However, as this does not concern First Kernow I shall comment in the general First thread.
 

matt_splat

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my money on the e400s from Plymouth is it three of them would be to send them to Camborne as back up busses for the U1/U2?
 

richw

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Now that Plymouth Citybus run some routes to Torpoint, I think they will be left to it without competition from Stagecoach.

I understand that no vehicles are included in the sale. Depending on how many services Stagecoach have registered compared to First, they might not need as many vehicles anyway. One irony I can think of. The E400s originally for route X9 (Exeter - Bude) were financed by Devon CC so transferred to Plymouth when Barnstaple closed. Where could they go now? As far as I can tell, the only First route running into Devon will be route X53 (Weymouth - Exeter)!

I have had another thought about First divesting other services in the south west. However, as this does not concern First Kernow I shall comment in the general First thread.

The Darts that First Kernow sent to Manchester last year were financed by Cornwall council. I imagine on a 7 year old bus any finance/lease with the council should be pretty much paid off.

At the Plymouth rally today I heard a number of people saying that stagecoach are not going to operate any of the services that currently compete with citybus and that a mutual agreement not to compete has been agreed.
Each of first Plymouths 56 plate Darts have what looks to be newly painted olympia livery.

First Kernow has approx 40 non compliant single deckers that need replacing by December. Plymouth has a number of newer darts and tridents as well as the enviro 400s which are DDA, I expect the majority to end up in Cornwall. The rest of the Plymouth fleet look destined for scrap as non DDA and externally at least look in very poor condition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
my money on the e400s from Plymouth is it three of them would be to send them to Camborne as back up busses for the U1/U2?

Recently at weekends E400s have been working to Newquay on the 93. Maybe an indication of somewhere they are being considered. The 93 is normally Olympian operated.
 

Busaholic

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(journey times too slow) - speed up journey times. Not quite sure how this is actually possible without cutting bits of route out, or running some buses fast and having extra buses doing the slow bits.

My thoughts exactly. Surely, if they want to speed up some of the services, then CC should play their part in maintaining the local road network as well. Afterall, you wouldn't try to speed up a railway without upgrading the track first would you? Parking can be an out of CCs control, but something would need to be done to make sure lanes aren't being blocked, etc...

The X18 Penzance to Truro saved 30 minutes or so on a through journey and always seemed well-used, but was scrapped last year apart from one token journey. Bad newspaper publicity about breakdowns probably didn't help the cause, as old deckers were the order of the day (presumably needed because of loadings.)
As someone paying both business rates and council tax to Cornwall Council I'm very interested in these proposals and highly sceptical as to how they are going to be implemented. The calibre of staff employed by CC would not appear to be anywhere near capable of achieving the 'benefits' envisaged and, as in the NHS, I can foresee huge sums needlessly spent in administration and, probably, a radical rethink after a year or three with further wasted expenditure. 'You can fool some of the people all of the time...' Thanks a bunch, Dave, you didn't secure my vote then, and you sure won't now.
 

radamfi

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Only 60%.The UK average is 85%.

To be honest, I was surprised it is as high as that. It's not like Surrey for example with hardly any commercial routes outside Guildford. That does mean the question of compensation for the "confiscation" of business will be asked.
 

the101

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How far do you think £50m is going to go?

Please bear in mind that new buses cost between £250,000 - £300,000 each

:shock: :shock:

No they don't. You can get a top-of-the range Van Hool coach for that money. A StreetLite Max is around £135,000.
 

83G/84D

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Anyone know what this will changed to, come September?
 

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TheGrandWazoo

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To be honest, I was surprised it is as high as that. It's not like Surrey for example with hardly any commercial routes outside Guildford. That does mean the question of compensation for the "confiscation" of business will be asked.

For every Surrey, you have more than enough other examples of the opposite.

Fact is that the proportion of commercial services is increasing as supported services are either withdrawn outright, or are taken on commercially in some form.

Cumbria now has very few supported services; note that of the services that were cut, 2/3 are now operated (in some form) on a commercial basis. North Yorkshire and Somerset are going through death by a thousand cuts as subsidies are withdrawn; all Sunday services in those counties are commercial IIRC.

Then you have Hartlepool, Darlington and Southend who are some of the 7 LA's that don't support any local bus services; note that Darlington was one of the LAs given a load of money to improve transport (along with Peterboro and Worcester) and have basically squandered it.
 

Busaholic

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To be honest, I was surprised it is as high as that. It's not like Surrey for example with hardly any commercial routes outside Guildford. That does mean the question of compensation for the "confiscation" of business will be asked.

According to Cornwall Council's website, the majority of the commercial routes are in the western half of the county i.e.on or west of a line drawn from Newquay to Falmouth via Truro. As the peninsula narrows so distances between settlements come down, so there is much less driving through open land, which makes 'dead mileage' so much less. Then allow for much lower wage rates for drivers compared to Surrey and the use of much-depreciated (and unappreciated!) buses and you might get a return on your investment on some routes, outside the evenings. The competition with Western Greyhound also kept First on their toes and, being a sceptic, I wonder how many of these 'commercial' routes will suddenly become less so and be threatened with withdrawal or severe cutbacks within the next year or so. Stagecoach gets ever nearer, but would they really be interested? They'd certainly want some reassurance on recompense from pensioners' free travel first, I would guess.
 

Busaholic

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The August Buses magazine in the Western Greyhound article says 20 out of 46 are council supported, so about 56% commercial

In terms of buses, rather than routes, the proportion of buses operating on commercial routes rather than tendered ones will of course be greater than 56% as they are usually, but not always, longer and with better frequencies.
 

Goldfish62

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The August Buses magazine in the Western Greyhound article says 20 out of 46 are council supported, so about 56% commercial

That's by route. According to the CC website it's the more accurate 60% by scheduled mileage. Measuring by route is skewed by large routes such as the 14/18 being commercial.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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But they're a laughable, over-spec'd piece of junk.<D Hardly comparable to anything else.

Streetlites are c.£160k (Max hybrid) though the shorter ones are less. Enviro 200 is less still - build quality reflects that ;)

The e400 is about £250k. Naturally, all these are rough figures. Depends on the purchasing power of the organisation and the specs etc

As for the Borismaster.... Boris was right about their elephant like domes, across London like the Serenguiti. Just like elephants....only whiter
 

THarris123

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Streetlites are c.£160k (Max hybrid) though the shorter ones are less. Enviro 200 is less still - build quality reflects that ;)

The e400 is about £250k. Naturally, all these are rough figures. Depends on the purchasing power of the organisation and the specs etc

As for the Borismaster.... Boris was right about their elephant like domes, across London like the Serenguiti. Just like elephants....only whiter

The latest Citaros seem to cost £160k and the Optare Metrocitys are £130k.
 

richw

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No they're not, but even if they were how is the price of an NBfL relevant to discussion concerning franchising in Cornwall?

No relevance, unles we are getting borismasters in Cornwall....... No chance so of no relevance.

We will get cast off Tridents if we're lucky,
 

Busaholic

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No relevance, unles we are getting borismasters in Cornwall....... No chance so of no relevance.

Wonder if Malta are getting prepared to receive them in due course i.e. starting a year after Boris's term finishes.
 

carlberry

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Could be the return of two former legal letterings....

  • St Austell Street, Summercourt
  • 4 Hamilton Road, Taunton

Which one is most likely? Which one is closer to Alex's home?? ;)

I'd go for Bristol, or even Chelmsford (as it controls most of the midlands and will have two less depots to deal with from next month!).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From the Bus and Coach article, we know that...
http://busandcoach.com/news/article...ish-surprise-with-powers-for-bus-franchising/

"The deal is described as ‘fiscally neutral’, meaning there is no extra money"
(plus "the council stresses that it still has to make overall savings of £196million over the next four years").

"Cornwall council describes the current bus network in the county as “unstable”"
"claims that a London-style tendered model is required in order to deliver passenger growth and an integrated public transport network"


Good luck!

I'm reassured at how good councils are with buses by the recent fiasco of Cardiff bus station where one of the few examples of a well located bus station* that’s completed integrated with a major rail station is being closed because the council wants the money from flogging it off to build offices
(* other than the problem of the council closing it every time somebody holds a major event which requires lots of people to get to the area).

I expect Penzance and St Austell bus stations are already being measured up!
 

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