First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

This is not a good sign if First are still cutting back routes etc. It seems in some parts no one has learned any lessons.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is not a good sign if First are still cutting back routes etc. It seems in some parts no one has learned any lessons.

Depends if they're not covering their running costs though. However, I have maintained that it will come right but to expect some reverses in the meantime. I thought Plymouth would go; the only real surprise has been Hereford.

Would lay money that they'll be some further depot rationalisation in the next year (and it won't just be First)

 

[TAS]

Depends if they're not covering their running costs though. However, I have maintained that it will come right but to expect some reverses in the meantime. I thought Plymouth would go; the only real surprise has been Hereford.

Would lay money that they'll be some further depot rationalisation in the next year (and it won't just be First)

In the case of Braintree, it looks like it was the cost of refurbishing the depot that was the problem (though given that First only moved in 5 years ago, I'm surprised that this was an issue):
http://www.braintreeandwithamtimes....eat_to_bus_routes_as_town_depot_set_to_close/

There are fears some bus services could be cancelled when First Essex closes its Braintree depot.

The Times revealed last week that the base at Springwood Drive would close on November 1, with the 75 staff based there being told to work from Chelmsford or Colchester.

All that will remain will be a small "outstation" in the town, where a handful of buses will be based.

A "network review" has now been launched over the future of the five bus services operated by First in the town.

One worker, who asked to remain anonymous, said staff were "shellshocked" at the announcement.

A spokesman for First admitted it was closing the depot to avoid spending money on refurbishing it.

For more see this week's Braintree and Witham Times.

Presumably the returns from the 131/132 and 30 weren't enough to justify doing work to the depot (given that there are depots at either end of the 70 and that a smaller outstation could cover some work), or to justify their operation once the depot closed (especially if the resources could be redeployed, at least partially, on another corridor). The £3.3 million apparently already invested on the new Colchester depot probably didn't help with the case for investment elsewhere in the county, either.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In the case of Braintree, it looks like it was the cost of refurbishing the depot that was the problem (though given that First only moved in 5 years ago, I'm surprised that this was an issue):
http://www.braintreeandwithamtimes....eat_to_bus_routes_as_town_depot_set_to_close/


Presumably the returns from the 131/132 and 30 weren't enough to justify doing work to the depot (given that there are depots at either end of the 70 and that a smaller outstation could cover some work), or to justify their operation once the depot closed (especially if the resources could be redeployed, at least partially, on another corridor). The £3.3 million apparently already invested on the new Colchester depot probably didn't help with the case for investment elsewhere in the county, either.

It's a bit more sensible than when Arriva NE closed their Alnwick depot a few years ago for the same reason (think it was electrics that needed upgrading).

They failed to factor in the redundancy cost - for some reason, they thought the drivers would transfer, driving an hour each way to Ashington depot. They also allocated vehicles with fuel tanks that couldn't do a full 18 hour stint and also had complex driver changeovers.

They have since opened an Alnwick outstation - what they should've done in the first place!

 

[South Westerly]

This is not a good sign if First are still cutting back routes etc. It seems in some parts no one has learned any lessons.

Every bus company reviews it's performance on a route by route, depot by depot basis continuously. They both grow where there are opportunities and contract where business isnt viable. That is what all bus businesses do and it is exactly what First are doing. It's not a bad sign - in fact it's a reassuring sign.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Every bus company reviews it's performance on a route by route, depot by depot basis continuously. They both grow where there are opportunities and contract where business isnt viable. That is what all bus businesses do and it is exactly what First are doing. It's not a bad sign - in fact it's a reassuring sign.

How dare you approach things with such levity!!

Interesting how I read elsewhere that someone mentioned the cuts in Somerset (Frome) yet then failed to mention that the vehicles saved were being used to increase other routes

 

[overthewater]

I had to look that word up, Im not sure about the lack of appropriate seriousness or earnestness. ?

To be fair Stagecoach are reviewing their networks and depots, and even with the three depot closures, Stagecoach are not cutting back it its commercial workload.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I had to look that word up, Im not sure about the lack of appropriate seriousness or earnestness. ?

To be fair Stagecoach are reviewing their networks and depots, and even with the three depot closures, Stagecoach are not cutting back it its commercial workload.

Stagecoach Wales last year?? Arriva Wales at Aberystwyth? Arriva North East in Co Durham?

I'm sure SW got the sarcasm when I referred to levity; think he was actually being very serious (and grounded) in comparison to some of the things that get said.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach Wales last year?? Arriva Wales at Aberystwyth? Arriva North East in Co Durham?

I'm sure SW got the sarcasm when I referred to levity; think he was actually being very serious (and grounded) in comparison to some of the things that get said.

To be fair, I was talking about and did ref the point about this years closures

Being honset, Wales is a basket case, and neither company are to blame for the cuts backs, i did not know about the Arriva North East cuts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be fair, I was talking about and did ref the point about this years closures

Being honset, Wales is a basket case, and neither company are to blame for the cuts backs, i did not know about the Arriva North East cuts.

The Arriva NE cuts were a few years ago (2011?). However, they announced the closure of 3 depots on the same day!

As I mentioned Alnwick closed as it required substantial upgrading. Peterlee was closed (as was Durham) to be replaced by a super depot at Durham. Bishop Auckland closed and was replaced by an expanded Darlington. Alnwick and Bishop now have outstations.

However, by 2012, it was apparent that some commercial work that was marginal when the local depot was open couldn't be sustained as a) costs with dead mileage were higher and b) revenue was down as services were less reliable.

Advise you to compare the Co Durham route network in 2015 with that of 2008 and just see the difference!

 

[the101]

To temper the point about depots requiring expenditure, Newcastle had quite an amounf of money spent on it two or three years ago and is to close next weekend!

What will happen to it after closure is not yet known (publicly, at least), and it has been reported elsewhere that First don't have to vacate immediately and that the space will be used for the storage of redundant buses prior to collection for scrap - and there will be quite a few of those at Potteries between now and the end of the year. Housing may be a possibility in the long term; Newcastle is rather more affluent than neighbouring Stoke, which may render house contruction viable. We will no doubt see.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To temper the point about depots requiring expenditure, Newcastle had quite an amounf of money spent on it two or three years ago and is to close next weekend!

What will happen to it after closure is not yet known (publicly, at least), and it has been reported elsewhere that First don't have to vacate immediately and that the space will be used for the storage of redundant buses prior to collection for scrap - and there will be quite a few of those at Potteries between now and the end of the year. Housing may be a possibility in the long term; Newcastle is rather more affluent than neighbouring Stoke, which may render house contruction viable. We will no doubt see.

First don't own it IIRC. Think they did a property flip on it years ago

 

[baza585]

Every bus company reviews it's performance on a route by route, depot by depot basis continuously. They both grow where there are opportunities and contract where business isnt viable. That is what all bus businesses do and it is exactly what First are doing. It's not a bad sign - in fact it's a reassuring sign.

Spot on. First has a backlog of tough decisions that were ducked in the Lochhead era. That it is now tackling these issues is very positive for the prospects for UK Bus, though it is very painful for those employees affected.

I would be more concerned if First weren't reviewing performance continuously and taking corrective action where necessary; they are only doing what Stagecoach has been doing for many years.

 

[oldman]

I suspect the level of trimming is being driven from Aberdeen. First need some good news for the City and a significant step towards the much-mentioned double-digit profit margins on UK Bus might be that good news.

 

[Robertj21a]

I suspect the level of trimming is being driven from Aberdeen. First need some good news for the City and a significant step towards the much-mentioned double-digit profit margins on UK Bus might be that good news.

It would be nice to think that the local management is driving this rather than any top-down directive. First have brought in a few 'better quality' MDs in recent years but there's not much point in doing so if they are then tied up in First Group bureaucracy.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It would be nice to think that the local management is driving this rather than any top-down directive. First have brought in a few 'better quality' MDs in recent years but there's not much point in doing so if they are then tied up in First Group bureaucracy.

If it were top down edicts, then where are the similar cuts elsewhere? Bristol and Bath continue to expand...West Yorks? Think people are looking for patterns but basically it's one dead duck which should've gone three years ago (Plymouth), one depot that lost tenders so it ceased to be viable (Bracknell), one being replaced by a newer larger depot (Braintree), one they lease close to another depot (Newcastle). Only Hereford is curious.

Of course, companies have to hit financial targets and that's what OpCo's have to do and that's no different in First than anywhere else

 

[Robertj21a]

If it were top down edicts, then where are the similar cuts elsewhere? Bristol and Bath continue to expand...West Yorks? Think people are looking for patterns but basically it's one dead duck which should've gone three years ago (Plymouth), one depot that lost tenders so it ceased to be viable (Bracknell), one being replaced by a newer larger depot (Braintree), one they lease close to another depot (Newcastle). Only Hereford is curious.

Of course, companies have to hit financial targets and that's what OpCo's have to do and that's no different in First than anywhere else

Hereford might have been simply a closer look at the finances.

 

[TAS]

And in the world's least surprising news, Stephensons have stepped into the vacuum left by First in Braintree by:

• registering the withdrawn services
• opening a new (small) depot in the town
• buying five new buses to operate the services

They seem to have left Halstead to Braintree uncovered (though there is already a less frequent Hedingham service by a different route - Hedingham tried increasing their frequency last year (IIRC) by extending their 88, but this didn't work).

http://stephensonsofessex.com/news.php?category=4

Local Company Rescues Bus Services In Braintree
Essex-based independent bus company Stephensons, who already operate a number of services in the Witham and Braintree areas, have announced they will be stepping in to provide replacement services for many of the routes withdrawn by First from November 2nd.

The company will provide services, broadly at current frequencies, between Witham and Braintree via Silver End and Cressing (replacing 131/132), and from Braintree Bus Park to Bocking Deanery Gardens, and to Black Notley (service 21). Alternate journeys on the service from Witham will operate via Cressing Road and Stubbs Lane to replace service 30 in that area.

Managing Director Bill Hiron explained:

“We are a local company and very much part of the communities we serve. Once we learned of First’s decision to close its Braintree operation, we looked closely at what we could viably operate. Our bus services are highly regarded for their reliability and friendly drivers, and we have successfully taken on services withdrawn by others in the past, re-invigorating them with our local emphasis and high quality operation. Five brand new single-deck buses are on order for these new routes at a cost well in excess of £500,000 and we will be opening a small base in the town. We look forward to welcoming customers old and new to these new routes ‘’

The company will also be recruiting staff for its new depot, and would welcome applications from bus drivers currently working in the town who can deliver customer-focussed, friendly service and want to remain locally-based.

Fuller details of the new services, including timetable leaflets will be available in the coming weeks from Witham and Braintree Tourist Information Centres and details will also be on this website.

 

[overthewater]

What does it come under, Hereford for company house? Of course being out in the stick can't have helped it.

Mind you there other dead duck depot but let's not talk about again. I would keep an close eye on Scotland east since further changes should be happening over the next 12 month's.

Hopeful first can now move on from this awful situation.

 

[bussnapperwm]

What does it come under, Hereford for company house? Of course being out in the stick can't have helped it.

Mind you there other dead duck depot but let's not talk about again. I would keep an close eye on Scotland east since further changes should be happening over the next 12 month's.

Hopeful first can now move on from this awful situation.

Hereford has always been a stronghold of the mighty Midland Red so one would assume First Midland Red Buses (or some version) on CH.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What does it come under, Hereford for company house? Of course being out in the stick can't have helped it.

Mind you there other dead duck depot but let's not talk about again. I would keep an close eye on Scotland east since further changes should be happening over the next 12 month's.

Hopeful first can now move on from this awful situation.

If you're on about your fave obsession of Musselburgh, that might be at break even. Plymouth has been losing money hand over fist.

First Midland Red is Hereford. Worcester is the big money spinner. Might be that Hereford was just too constrained in terms of expansion especially with Yeomans and Stagecoach in the frame. Don't know?

 

[Morgsie]

First Potteries are closing the Newcastle-Under-Lyme bus station office and depot and cutting services which takes affect next moth

 

[overthewater]

First Potteries are closing the Newcastle-Under-Lyme bus station office and depot and cutting services which takes affect next moth

Your well behide in the news

 

[oldman]

Of course, companies have to hit financial targets and that's what OpCo's have to do and that's no different in First than anywhere else

What is different is that First has a languishing share price and no dividend. Maybe local management are given more scope in running their businesses than in the bad old days, but I suggest the number of 'changes to the depot portfolio' and service trimmings in the last year is down to more demanding financial targets.

 

[Volvodart]

They have a target margin of double figures to get to in around 2 years.

 

[Andyh82]

The Norwich fleet looks a bit downtrodden. The majority of the fleet is made up of 02/52 reg ex London presidents, the majority of which still carry the old livery.

What is strange there is that even though they are in old livery, they all have the new fleet names with the 'skyline' logo, almost as if it was known repaints was just not on the agenda any time soon.

Meanwhile all the other operators in the town running what you'd expect to be less profitable rural services, most of which used to be Eastern Counties, are running modern newer buses.

 

[90sWereBetter]

The Norwich fleet looks a bit downtrodden. The majority of the fleet is made up of 02/52 reg ex London presidents, the majority of which still carry the old livery.

What is strange there is that even though they are in old livery, they all have the new fleet names with the 'skyline' logo, almost as if it was known repaints was just not on the agenda any time soon.

Meanwhile all the other operators in the town running what you'd expect to be less profitable rural services, most of which used to be Eastern Counties, are running modern newer buses.

There is a refurbishment programme underway on the Presidents, with leather seating being fitted and the buses repainted into the new livery, or a colour-branded variation. So far, five have been completed. Apparently, there was a guarantee on the livery applied to them when they were cascaded out of London in 2009/2010, which is why they're only being repainted now.

In addition, it appears First Norwich are now attempting to rid themselves of the horrid B7L single deckers, of which they had 26 at the start of the year. A trio were transferred to Yarmouth a few months ago to replace B10BLEs there, having been made surplus at Norwich by the new Streetlites (23). Another five are to be replaced by surplus Ipswich B7RLEs (18). Another two will go when two Presidents on loan to Yarmouth return when the summer season services stop (16). Two others will be withdrawn due to reduced PVR requirements (14). The big news is that eleven Streetlite Max are arriving in November, for use on the Green Line services which are the preserve of the B7Ls at present. This means only three B7Ls are likely to be left in Norwich by the end of the year, and chances are they'll be replaced anyway.

There's a rumour going around that all of FEC's Jersey Darts are leaving, to head down to Cornwall.

 

[South Westerly]

There's a rumour going around that all of FEC's Jersey Darts are leaving, to head down to Cornwall.

No rumour. All 20 in UK bus are heading to Kernow.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is a refurbishment programme underway on the Presidents, with leather seating being fitted and the buses repainted into the new livery, or a colour-branded variation. So far, five have been completed. Apparently, there was a guarantee on the livery applied to them when they were cascaded out of London in 2009/2010, which is why they're only being repainted now.

In addition, it appears First Norwich are now attempting to rid themselves of the horrid B7L single deckers, of which they had 26 at the start of the year. A trio were transferred to Yarmouth a few months ago to replace B10BLEs there, having been made surplus at Norwich by the new Streetlites (23). Another five are to be replaced by surplus Ipswich B7RLEs (18). Another two will go when two Presidents on loan to Yarmouth return when the summer season services stop (16). Two others will be withdrawn due to reduced PVR requirements (14). The big news is that eleven Streetlite Max are arriving in November, for use on the Green Line services which are the preserve of the B7Ls at present. This means only three B7Ls are likely to be left in Norwich by the end of the year, and chances are they'll be replaced anyway.

There's a rumour going around that all of FEC's Jersey Darts are leaving, to head down to Cornwall.

It was rumoured in the same arrival that is the source for this that the B7Ls will be heading to Bristol? Any truth in that?

 

[cactustwirly]

Does anyone know where the 'Beeline' Citaros from Bracknell are going?