To be honest, in all the years of working there I would probably describe it as the least left wing place in the country rather than the most anyway. "Social democratic" might be a better way of putting it, the people aren't hard faced to those in need, but I find there is a strong "pull your weight" type attitude that doesn't suffer shirkers. That's not to say there aren't shirkers because there certainly are, but I find there is a pretty hard line divide. On political party front I guess it's much like London, rich areas tend to be Tory while poorer areas tend to be Labour (along with certain areas populated by "metropolitan" types, not mentioning any names!)
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To be honest, in all the years of working there I would probably describe it as the least left wing place in the country rather than the most anyway. "Social democratic" might be a better way of putting it, the people aren't hard faced to those in need, but I find there is a strong "pull your weight" type attitude that doesn't suffer shirkers. That's not to say there aren't shirkers because there certainly are, but I find there is a pretty hard line divide. On political party front I guess it's much like London, rich areas tend to be Tory while poorer areas tend to be Labour (along with certain areas populated by "metropolitan" types, not mentioning any names!)
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, I'd agree with that. But there is also a very strong traditionalism and "small C" conservatism, and trade unions are also very strong in the more traditional jobs such as the railway. Which is why I think bringing in DOO on Merseyrail will be a *massive* industrial relations challenge.
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I'm guessing you are at the younger end of things and didn't experience things like the dockers' strikes, miners' strikes etc. Yes the latter affected other places, but as someone who grew up in and around Liverpool (even though I now live darn Sarf) trade unionism and traditionalism in a work context was always very strong, much more so than other cities.
There is also the question as to whether the railway wants the alcohol-influenced custom, particularly given the incidents they have experienced before. There's also that (and I discovered this quite recently) the trend is now to go out much later than before, so the *first* train on a Sunday may be of more interest!
I've oft said Merseyrail is a textbook S-Bahn - bringing frequencies to German levels would further that.
Er, they say "3 car" and "6 car" on them, assuming the data has been entered. What would help, though, and I half recall may be in place at some stations though I might be thinking of elsewhere, is markings on the platforms (a) showing where a 3-car and 6-car will stop, and (b) showing the door positions so people can queue in the right place when it's busy and avoid blocking the doors.
ISTR that 2 minute headways used to be possible on the Loop but the new signalling may have reduced that slightly. It's still not used to its full capacity, though, and part of the reason is bus deregulation - were the "S-Bahn" it is located in Germany, buses wouldn't go to the city centre, they'd feed the nearest station alone (there are only about 10 bus routes that penetrate Hamburg city centre if that, and it's bigger than Manchester). Were that the case, you'd easily fill 6tph of 6-car per route. Though of course with PTE interavailable ticketing those bus routes do come in handy in disruption - in Germany you're often stuck until rail replacement is arranged.
As for taking high loads, a more S-stock style layout would mean you could accommodate those better as standing passengers, while there'd be enough seats in say an 80 or 100m train for off-peak for everyone.
But as I say, that's not a local issue but an industry one. Another way to look at it will be if the unions want to try and kick up a stink about it, they will have to be at loggerheads with a Labour authority(ies), not to mention one that turned down vertical integration.
I don't think the loss of guards jobs will be an issue, I think there will be plenty of other jobs created and it will easily be sold as an "opportunity for all". I also think if the unions were to try anything they would also be on the receiving end of zero public support/sympathy, given what they'd be perceived as protesting against (the eventual modernisation of a heavily used rail system that everyone uses and many people complain about, heat, reliability and so on). That hard line attitude I referred to I could easily see being focussed on the guards. They are simply on the wrong side of progress and budgets.
I don't think the loss of guards jobs will be an issue, I think there will be plenty of other jobs created and it will easily be sold as an "opportunity for all". I also think if the unions were to try anything they would also be on the receiving end of zero public support/sympathy, given what they'd be perceived as protesting against (the eventual modernisation of a heavily used rail system that everyone uses and many people complain about, heat, reliability and so on). That hard line attitude I referred to I could easily see being focussed on the guards. They are simply on the wrong side of progress and budgets.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm guessing you are at the younger end of things and didn't experience things like the dockers' strikes, miners' strikes etc. Yes the latter affected other places, but as someone who grew up in and around Liverpool (even though I now live darn Sarf) trade unionism and traditionalism in a work context was always very strong, much more so than other cities.
There is also the question as to whether the railway wants the alcohol-influenced custom, particularly given the incidents they have experienced before. There's also that (and I discovered this quite recently) the trend is now to go out much later than before, so the *first* train on a Sunday may be of more interest!
I've oft said Merseyrail is a textbook S-Bahn - bringing frequencies to German levels would further that.
Er, they say "3 car" and "6 car" on them, assuming the data has been entered. What would help, though, and I half recall may be in place at some stations though I might be thinking of elsewhere, is markings on the platforms (a) showing where a 3-car and 6-car will stop, and (b) showing the door positions so people can queue in the right place when it's busy and avoid blocking the doors.
ISTR that 2 minute headways used to be possible on the Loop but the new signalling may have reduced that slightly. It's still not used to its full capacity, though, and part of the reason is bus deregulation - were the "S-Bahn" it is located in Germany, buses wouldn't go to the city centre, they'd feed the nearest station alone (there are only about 10 bus routes that penetrate Hamburg city centre if that, and it's bigger than Manchester). Were that the case, you'd easily fill 6tph of 6-car per route. Though of course with PTE interavailable ticketing those bus routes do come in handy in disruption - in Germany you're often stuck until rail replacement is arranged.
As for taking high loads, a more S-stock style layout would mean you could accommodate those better as standing passengers, while there'd be enough seats in say an 80 or 100m train for off-peak for everyone.
Wouldn't they? Have you ever visited Birkenhead or Bootle? Not exactly Tory hot beds.
And that little dig about instances on merseyrail is downright nasty which has had a huge impact on the industry. If you're trying to score points there are far more dignified ways.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Quite. The cause of the incident (other than excess alcohol) was a train being dispatched with someone leaning on it. The same incident could have occurred with a dispatcher or with camera-based DOO. In whatever case, it occurred because the member of staff responsible for dispatch broke the Rule Book, and as a result were prosecuted.
They don't anymore. It used to be very clear (assuming you are referring to what it used to be like)
-----------------------------------
1. Chester 1min 6 Car
2. E Port 3min 3 Car
3 Chester 5min 6 Car
-----------------------------------
Very straightforward.
Now it's:
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10:46 Chester Ontime
(scrolling list of stations)......... (Merseyrail) (waits for a while) (3 car)
2nd Ellesmere Port Delayed Due 10:48 (alternates between 2nd and 3rd)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you only get to see how many carriages for the first train, and only fleetingly right at the very end of watching all the station names go past. It's next to useless.
The displays also come up and show delayed when a service is just running a minute later - I mean what is the point!
It really is rubbish.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Like I pointed out the Conservatives had three seats which covered the Wirral peninsula at the 2010 general election and only narrowly lost them in the 2015 election. Merseyrail is used by Conservative voters and possibly some work for Merseyrail.
So is safety of passengers only important if they are on the train? If not then you're talking rubbish.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Have they replaced the displays, or just replaced the software? I guess they have done the latter because Merseyrail is no longer an all-stations operation - Wirral Line trains don't all call at all stations any more.
That said, down South we cope. The PIS shows it as part of the scrolly message, and we also get "this train is formed of 8 coaches" or whatever in the announcements. And the variation is potentially much larger with 12 being the maximum.
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One (1) member of staff was incompetent and failed to follow the Rule Book, someone was killed (who contributed to their own death by being inebriated and leaning on a train that was about to depart) and the member of staff was thrown in jail as a result. Criminal negligence can occur anywhere. The dig at the other staff who do do their jobs properly is unnecessary and inaccurate.
That said, down South we cope. The PIS shows it as part of the scrolly message, and we also get "this train is formed of 8 coaches" or whatever in the announcements. And the variation is potentially much larger with 12 being the maximum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One (1) member of staff was incompetent and failed to follow the Rule Book, someone was killed (who contributed to their own death by being inebriated and leaning on a train that was about to depart) and the member of staff was thrown in jail as a result. Criminal negligence can occur anywhere. The dig at the other staff who do do their jobs properly is unnecessary and inaccurate.
I think software, although the writing does also seem smaller. Perhaps it's because it's not all in caps. It is only Capenhurst which is the exception to the all stations rule, only temporary while there is pressure on rolling stock, and previously this was accommodated on the displays anyway.
I would suggest the announcements will be more effective than the daft scrolling display, but there are none.
I would suggest the announcements will be more effective than the daft scrolling display, but there are none.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
I'm not talking about that incident but as usual on this forum is anyone even hints at guards not being 100% prefect they are shot down.
For the safety of passengers visible staff presence is needed both on trains and at stations, especially late at night. The Lime Street underground platform isn't that big so if there's disruption enough staff are needed at the station to ensure the platform doesn't get overcrowded. The same is true at other stations. A guard who has to do the doors on frequent stop services can't do much else.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have never seen Lime St Low Level overcrowded to the extent of LU or even near it.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If there was an outage affecting the third rail soon after a football match or another special event meaning there were no trains for 45 minutes then I'm sure it would be.
Well they've not been working the last few times I've seen them. Who said anything about 'suddenly'? This new rolling stock is hardly going to 'suddenly' happen. Lastly, less rolling stock than now would be a madness and it's first I've heard of it.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
"Station gets busy during disruption" is hardly news
northwichcat
Veteran Member
"Station gets busy during disruption" is hardly news
It was you who was dismissing any possible safety concerns from crowding on the Lime Street lower level platform.
Bootle, Birkenhead etc aren't left wing? Southport-aside, both boroughs are represented entirely by Labour MPs (although it's surely not as simple as that). What we're talking about here are lazy stereotypes (which come up on this forum, without fail, every time there's a Liverpool topic). Neil suggests I'm not old enough to remember the dockers strikes and miners strikes (miners strikes in Liverpool!!!????) and yes it's a bit before my time but I'm not ignorant of the city's history (the irony). He fails to qualify why strikes in Liverpool were supposedly any worse than anywhere else, as it seems they were just as bad in other urban areas of Britain, especially ones which actually had mines and how this can be seen as a reflection on the city's culture and attitude as a whole rather than a reflection of the issues faced by employees of a particular industry (docks and shipping) at a particular point of time. If that's difficult enough, how can it possibly be used to qualify the hypothesis that Merseyrail guards in 2015 are somehow more chippy and Trot than those of any other TOC?
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
I didn't say those specific places I said The Wirral and Sefton collectively.
I've already made points about 3 Labour MPs representing The Wirral peninsula (not specifically the borough) winning seats from the Conservatives at the last election. The Wirral peninsula is more appropriate than the borough when talking about Merseyrail given Merseyrail extends as far as Chester and Ellesmere Port.
If that's your benchmark for most left-wing city then perhaps an incorrect conclusion has been drawn. The Green Party is seen as more left-wing than Labour. Which cities have Green MPs? Not Liverpool, but Brighton does.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, I was disagreeing with your point that dispatchers are needed. There are many platforms throughout the country that get a bit crowded when there is disruption and don't have dispatchers, who in any case are going to make precious little difference to anything in terms of managing crowded platforms. A member of staff at the station watching the CCTV and closing the entrance when it gets silly will suffice, and they can double as the ticket office staff.
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We shall see, as things that aren't mathematical are rather difficult to "quantify". I suspect I will be right unless *all* the guards are offered driver jobs (or a very good redundancy package is offered to those who aren't), which might well make them happy as the pay is higher.
I think the depiction of Liverpool as a "city of striking dockers" can get carried away. Perhaps, if going back to historical cliches is the way it has to be, then describing as a "city of dockers, and shipping line owners and their various accountants" might carry the more complicated picture.
Allerton, Mossley Hill, Woolton and so on are a bit like the Enchanted Wood in that no one who hasn't been there will believe they exist. It seems that a lot of people want to think Liverpool is all or mostly like Bootle (which funnily enough is in Sefton!) Perhaps it's a case of limited imagination, but it's a bit like saying all of London is like Peckham. (Bad example maybe).
I was just using the largest constituent town in each borough, both of which share the general Liverpool stereotype of uncouth Scouseness and squalor. Wirral Borough is the vast majority of the Wirral Peninsula, especially so where Merseyrail is concerned. Ellesmere Port & Neston too returned a Labour MP at the last election. The whole of the Wirral is currently represented by Labour MPs.
Your last point is pretty much what I'm getting at. How do you measure how left wing a city is? Like you say, Brighton has a theoretically more left wing parliamentary representation than Liverpool does. Liverpool City Council also still has an opposition (just about) unlike 100% Labour Manchester. Liverpool also had a Lib Dem administration until fairly recently. Rotherham MBC never has had anything but Labour. Liverpool's political history has always been more complex and multifaceted than the English caricature of it suggests.
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Not much to add, but pretty much agree. It's like someone I came across who couldn't accept that Brookside Close could be a real Liverpool street as Liverpool only has terraced housing. That in turn reminds me of an American girl who was having none of it when I tried to convince here that you do get brunettes in Finland & Sweden. I'm not kidding on either anecdote, though I've always kind of hoped the former was trolling.
Your last point is pretty much what I'm getting at. How do you measure how left wing a city is? Like you say, Brighton has a theoretically more left wing parliamentary representation than Liverpool does. Liverpool City Council also still has an opposition (just about) unlike 100% Labour Manchester. Liverpool also had a Lib Dem administration until fairly recently. Rotherham MBC never has had anything but Labour. Liverpool's political history has always been more complex and multifaceted than the English caricature of it suggests.
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Not much to add, but pretty much agree. It's like someone I came across who couldn't accept that Brookside Close could be a real Liverpool street as Liverpool only has terraced housing. That in turn reminds me of an American girl who was having none of it when I tried to convince here that you do get brunettes in Finland & Sweden. I'm not kidding on either anecdote, though I've always kind of hoped the former was trolling.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
I said a staff presence on platforms not a dispatcher. It might be at some stations a dispatcher could be beneficial but putting someone on a platform in a safety/security role doesn't have to mean dispatching trains is part of their role.
I said 'qualify'. Qualify you assertions. I've had enough of this anyway. Basically when the time comes and redundancies are handed out and the poor souls affected aren't happy and understandably try and avoid it happening, you're going to say "See, I told you so. Most left wing city". Nice one, Neil.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you'd read my posts properly, you wouldn't have put those precise words ("left wing") in my mouth, because I didn't say them originally.
What would make the point would be how long it goes on for, and whether the guards actually win. I know the city, I grew up there, and I know the traditional union attitudes. Yes, I can understand an attempt, but I would think Liverpool's culture might make them fight that little bit harder and longer (with a little more hardship endured) like the dockers - but maybe actually win.
If you read it properly, you would realise it was not an insult against my city of birth - far from it.
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If I thought like that then I'd hand my drivers key in. You really don't have a clue about staff mentality on safety do you? I'll hold back on what I really think as I actually like posting on here for some reason. Don't want that warning turning into a ban.
jamesst
Member
9 times out of 10 when a service is delayed it has the expected due time,not just delayed. It displays delayed if the train is at a stand and they're not sure when it will move. I can't see anything wrong with the screens at all
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Arguably the fact that the standard display as used by pretty much every other TOC is used is a good thing.
If you really believe this you are being incredibly naïve. It is proving to be a huge issue elsewhere and I have no idea why you think Merseyrail guards will just roll over. The fact that it's a Labour authority makes no difference. Trying to sell some patronising idea of "opportunity for all" won't work. RMT and ASLEF I suspect couldn't care less about public support.
All the underground stations on Merseyrail already have adequate staff to provide a platform presence when necessary. They also have contingency plans to provide more staff for crowd control during busy periods.
We've been talking for about two or so pages about how accurate the assertion, originally made by driver_m is: that Liverpool is the arguably UK's most left wing city. You've been making arguments strongly insinuating you agree with the statement. Arguing semantics about what particular words you have or haven't said is not here or there. I claim the statement is more than just arguable but highly contentious and not based on anything other than a national media inspired caricature. You grew up in Liverpool. You didn't grow up in any of the other places going through a similar process of deindustrialisation (practically every large urban area). Maybe if you did, you'd think that particular town or city was the most left wing.
The dockers lost. I don't think it's a good example of dead 'ard scousers telling the powers that be what's what or any motivation for a Merseyrail guard to hope that their job will be safe.
jamesst
Member
The RMT and ASLEFs primary concern quite right is there members not the public. The members are the people that pay every payday. Anyone that thinks there won't be a fight over this is completely deluded.
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