Stansted coach changes - a bit of a mess

[ScotGG]

Coach pick up & drop off layout has changed, and Terravision have been badly hit. They carry 65% of people to/from London but have been located, with no warning to passengers, miles away at mid-stay.

In their place is apparently some coach service to Kings Cross. No one said they had seen it, so presumably it has yet to start. I looked online and a £10 route is here from citylink: http://www.stanstedcitylink.co.uk/

This is not much good for those in east London, south east London, Kent etc who don't want to shell out on more money for tubes, HS1 etc. Stratford is seeing large growth in housing and population so more demand will come from there. Terravision are great for quick links to Stratford, with more flexibility and cheaper than NX. Whatever led to this can hopefully be resolved as the airport needs sufficient links to east London.

 

[jon0844]

First they control taxis such that they can charge a small fortune, then they stitch up motorists by charging crazy rates to drop off, so I suppose it's stands to reason that (in addition to expensive rail fares) they want to try and make more money from coaches.

I expect those who can stop nearby probably have to pay a premium, or perhaps even a share of profits?

Is the airport run by the mafia?!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Luton Airport did something similar a couple of years ago, awarding sole coach rights to National Express and banishing Arriva The Shires (trading as GreenLine) away to the long-term car park. It was deemed unlawful because of how they did it.

I assume that ComfortDelGro are paying Stansted Airport handsomely for the prime bus stops. They are presumably paying a lot more than Epsom Coaches are prepared to.

It'll be interesting to see if Epsom Coaches can or will lawyer up in the same way Arriva The Shires did.

 

[ScotGG]

It seems court action is underway according to an Italian website.

If the only options that remain are stupidly expensive trains or inflexible NX coaches, then I'll look to fly more from Gatwick than Stansted. Advances to there are much more common.

 

[plcd1]

Coach pick up & drop off layout has changed, and Terravision have been badly hit. They carry 65% of people to/from London but have been located, with no warning to passengers, miles away at mid-stay.

In their place is apparently some coach service to Kings Cross. No one said they had seen it, so presumably it has yet to start. I looked online and a £10 route is here from citylink: http://www.stanstedcitylink.co.uk/

This is not much good for those in east London, south east London, Kent etc who don't want to shell out on more money for tubes, HS1 etc. Stratford is seeing large growth in housing and population so more demand will come from there. Terravision are great for quick links to Stratford, with more flexibility and cheaper than NX. Whatever led to this can hopefully be resolved as the airport needs sufficient links to east London.

The route started last Sunday - I saw a coach on it on Forest Road, E17. The website FAQ confirms 11/10/15 as the start date.

The route is run by Comfort Delgro who own Metroline, Westbus and part of Scottish Citylink. I wasn't aware of stand changes at Stansted but I wonder if it's simply been down to departure stand charges and who's prepared to pay for more attractive stands.

I wonder if the Stansted market can actually cope with another operator - that'll be 4 that I'm aware of on London - Stansted (Easybus, Nat Ex, Terravision and now Metroline / Westbus).

 

[radamfi]

Where does it say that Terravision now stops at Mid-Stay? Their website says:

"We would like to inform you that from October 11 2015, the dedicated Terravision bus stop at Stansted airport will be located outside the Terminal, departures exit"

which isn't very helpful. Mid-Stay isn't that bad as it is only a short, free bus ride from the terminal. If Terravision are disadvantaged by using Mid-Stay, then hopefully they will have to charge lower fares than the rest, saving money for those of us who aren't in a great rush. Arriva had to charge lower fares when they were banished from Luton airport, and fares have now gone back up now they have returned to the terminal again.

Mid-Stay is also useful for picking up passengers by car as it allows free parking for one hour, or £1 for two hours. You can also drop off at Mid-Stay for free. Free drop off at the terminal is abused by people attempting to pick-up.

 

[ScotGG]

That info on their site is completely wrong. The only thing stopping outside Stansted now relating to terravision are orange articulated buses to mid-stay every half an hour, with Terravision on the front destination. It then meanders to where Terravision are now based, and you have to hope that you meet a service departing soon.

I don't know mid-stay that well - it would probably be better to get a regular orange articulated shuttle bus there to change onto the booked coach. Most people wont know that though (and do the regular mid-stay buses go near terravisions part?) so are waiting for very infrequent Terravision signed articulated buses.

Citylink charging £10 - good luck with that.

 

[radamfi]

That info on their site is completely wrong. The only thing stopping outside Stansted now relating to terravision are orange articulated buses to mid-stay every half an hour, with Terravision on the front destination. It then meanders to where Terravision are now based, and you have to hope that you meet a service departing soon.

I don't know mid-stay that well - it would probably be better to get a regular orange articulated shuttle bus there to change onto the booked coach. Most people wont know that though (and do the regular mid-stay buses go near terravisions part?) so are waiting for very infrequent Terravision signed articulated buses.

Oh, I assumed that they would be relying on the regular car park buses and didn't realise they are running their own buses, and that should be mentioned on the Terravision website. But if the regular car park buses stop near the Terravision stop then maybe it is just to avoid overloading the car park buses.

It wouldn't be much worse if Terravision stopped at *long* stay rather than mid-stay as whilst the car park bus ride is long, you have already travelled part of the journey to London.

I see citylink are charging £10 one way. Good luck with that.

They are cheaper than National Express from Victoria though, and National Express from Victoria stops along the way, whereas Citylink is non-stop.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm not familiar with Stanstead but are we saying that previously Terravision ran a bus every half an hour from right outside the terminal to London but now they're still running a bus from right outside the terminal every half an hour but it's only allowed to go as far as the mid-stay car park where passengers are forced to change to a different bus to complete their journey?

And the terminal-car park bus is in a distinctive livery so airport staff (and competitors) can easily see if they're 'cheating' by driving the London vehicle to the terminal?

 

[Stats]

It looks like easyBus aren't happy either

http://www.easy.com/shareholder-news/4279-possible-travel-chaos-at-stansted-airport-this-sunday.html

easyBus founder Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou has hit out at Stansted airport bosses for profiteering at the expense of their customers.

Stelios is blaming the bosses of Stansted airport for possible travel chaos at the airport's busy "bus and coach" station this coming Sunday, 11th October, which will be one of the busiest at Stansted as the Rugby World Cup draws to the final stages.

easyBus was only given 2 working days notice to cease operations at Stansted Airport as of Sunday 11th October based on a legally flawed tender process, which has been bubbling away in the background for well over a year. easyBus has been accepting bookings in good faith on its Stansted to/from central London routes for the next few months and has communicated a clear plan to Stansted that enables operations to continue from a different part of the airport using its flexible "minibus" fleet as opposed to full-sized coaches.

It is not clear what specific actions Stansted Airport can take to prevent passengers travelling by easyBus to/from Stansted on Sunday (e.g. clamping vehicles with passengers on board?) but easyBus would like to warn the public that there could be an element of disruption to journeys.

In addition, there is general confusion surrounding this tender with at least one of the so-called "winners" ready to commence operations without a licence to operate in the UK (Autostradale) and one of the other "losers" still selling tickets online as we speak beyond Sunday (Terravision).

Sir Stelios said:
"This is a classic case of a monopolist abusing its market dominance. By threatening to cut easyBus out of Stansted, airport bosses have restricted choice to their cronies, jacked up prices and given travellers a bad deal. And that's before you consider the chaos and confusion caused by the last minute threat to easyBus' services. This is completely unacceptable behaviour - we will be asking the relevant authorities including the courts to look at this decision with a view to maintaining a low-cost popular minibus transfer that offers a good service at rock bottom prices."

 

[radamfi]

It looks like easyBus aren't happy either

But they call their new stop "even more convenient"

http://www.easybus.com/en/london-stansted

From 11th October 2015 the easyBus Baker St and City (Old St) services will be operating from an even more convenient location at Stansted AIrport.

At Stansted, easyBus minibuses will drop off and pick up passengers from the Express Set Down point on the road outside the Arrivals door. Services to and from London Victoria, operated by National Express coaches, will continue to use the PTI Coach Station.

 

[stut]

Oh, Stelios is involved now?

<gets out popcorn>
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But they call their new stop "even more convenient"

http://www.easybus.com/en/london-stansted

I wonder if this is an official arrangement, or if easyBus are basically going to run the minibuses through as if they were private vehicles? This could get fun...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oh, Stelios is involved now?

<gets out popcorn>

It sounds like a re-hash of what Luton Airport attempted to do a couple of years ago. In that case the High Court judge pretty much ripped them to shreds for how they handled themselves.

I think it's going to get interesting. Even without Stelios getting involved, I can't imagine RATP- who own Epsom Coaches, who run the Terravision franchise- taking it lying down.

IIRC just sticking the minibuses through anyway was how EasyBus managed to keep their access to Luton Airport...

 

[radamfi]

Surely Stansted must have seen what happened at Luton, so presumably would have made sure that they knew they would be covered in the event of court action?

 

[ScotGG]

Terravision also state that they have been ordered to remove their stand in the airport advertising their service, even though they have a contract and paid for it.

 

[jon0844]

Do the owners do the same things at Manchester Airport?

 

[radamfi]

Do the owners do the same things at Manchester Airport?

There isn't a coach shuttle to Manchester city centre given the short distance and the existence of a cheap and frequent train although some National Express routes to Manchester also call at the airport. They don't charge for dropping off outside the terminal.

 

[Wolfie]

Terravision also state that they have been ordered to remove their stand in the airport advertising their service, even though they have a contract and paid for it.

An injunction for breach of contract could be issued in hours... methinks Stansted are playing a dangerous game and I hope it costs them dear!

I predicted the outcome of the Luton case and have seen nothing to make me think this will go any better for the airport than that case did...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I predicted the outcome of the Luton case and have seen nothing to make me think this will go any better for the airport than that case did...

It looks like they've used the same argument that Luton did, that it is dangerous due to limited space in the coach station.

Given that the High Court pretty much tore that argument to shreds when Luton tried it, basically saying that their motivation was money not safety, I can't think that Stansted will have any more success with it.

Still, the lawyers will be happy. And yep, I hope it costs Stansted a fortune.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An injunction for breach of contract could be issued in hours... methinks Stansted are playing a dangerous game and I hope it costs them dear!

I predicted the outcome of the Luton case and have seen nothing to make me think this will go any better for the airport than that case did...

Was breach of contract the reason Luton were kicked? As, to be honest, I can completely understand that the private business owning their airport can legally choose who else trades there. There wouldn't be free and open access for food stalls; why is transport any different? Or is there some legislation that would guarantee impartiality of access for all transport, not just flights?

 

[EssexGonzo]

Yet another reason to give Stansted a wide berth. It's a shambles of an airport.

 

[Wolfie]

Was breach of contract the reason Luton were kicked? As, to be honest, I can completely understand that the private business owning their airport can legally choose who else trades there. There wouldn't be free and open access for food stalls; why is transport any different? Or is there some legislation that would guarantee impartiality of access for all transport, not just flights?

The breach of contract claim would relate to the post that states:
"Terravision also state that they have been ordered to remove their stand in the airport advertising their service, even though they have a contract and paid for it."

As far as I know there is no law guaranteeing impartiality of access for all transport. However, transport is VERY different to food franchises on Stansted premises not least because the taxpayer picks up the bill for all of the infrastructure (not to mention you can buy food before you get to the airport!). Also, was your view correct, Stansted could give a single operator a monopoly position... competition law has a lot to say on that and, as I understand it, is why Luton airport lost big-time legally when advancing, if I take what have been posted as accurate, are fundamantally similar arguments....

 

[Tetchytyke]

As, to be honest, I can completely understand that the private business owning their airport can legally choose who else trades there. There wouldn't be free and open access for food stalls; why is transport any different?

It is unlawful for a company to distort competition by abusing a dominant position, unless they have an objective necessary reason for doing so.

Luton Airport were found to be in a dominant position (i.e. they controlled 100% of the coach station facilities at their airport) and using that dominance to distort competition on the Airport to London coach service. Luton's contract with National Express gave Luton a share of the profits and also gave National Express the right to veto any other operator using Luton Airport's coach station.

Luton attempted to claim they had a necessary reason for doing this because of safety concerns about multiple operators using Luton's coach station. This was, in effect, laughed out of court.

There was a side-issue where EasyBus were allowed to use the airport coach station despite National Express' contract, presumably because EasyJet are a big customer at Luton Airport and, even though EasyJet and EasyBus are now separate companies, Luton didn't want to upset EasyJet.

As a result, Luton were found to be unlawfully abusing their dominant position to distort competition on the Luton to London coach service. They were then forced to allow Arriva The Shires back into the coach station. Hilariously, the judge also ripped Luton Airport's commercial director to shreds in their judgment.

There is no law requiring impartiality of access, but an operator in a dominant position cannot abuse that dominance to distort competition. It is for this reason that the FA Premier League no longer sells exclusive rights to the whole league season, rather it sells six packages of matches and no one TV company is allowed to purchase the rights to all six packages. In a similar way you'll probably find that not all catering outlets within Luton Airport are owned and operated by the same company, so there is no distortion of competition.

As far as I can tell, Stansted Airport are trying to make the same arguments this time. The only noticeable difference is that two coach operators- ComfortDelGro and National Express- are allowed into the coach station rather than exclusive access being awarded to one operator. Although there is only one minibus operator- Autostradale (who don't have a licence to operate in the UK and nor do they have an English language website)- who are allowed into the coach station, hence Stelios' anger.

It'll be interesting to see if the High Court decides this is sufficient to prevent a distortion of competition.
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Here's a link that explains it all in more detail. It's a long one, so I won't quote what the link says.

http://www.oxera.com/Latest-Thinking/Agenda/2014/A-bus(e)-of-dominance-the-Arriva-v-Luton-case.aspx

 

[jon0844]

How does it work with the taxis? Is it all one company or do independent drivers just pay the airport a fee to be able to pick up?

There are loads of cameras to stop other taxi drivers waiting anywhere and I assume they now wait at the service station by the M11 junction.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hackney Carriages are on a set metered fare, so there isn't the same distortion of competition issue. The Office for Rail and Road said as much when the issue of TOCs charging taxis for taxi permits at railway stations reared its head last year (but then the ORR have never knowingly criticised or stood up to the TOCs, so that's hardly a surprise).

http://orr.gov.uk/what-and-how-we-r...arket-studies/taxi-access-to-railway-stations

 

[Stats]

Why did the Luton Airport case go through the courts rather than use the CAA's competition powers?

 

[greenline727]

Around 18 months ago, Stansted Airport invited tenders to operate coach services between London and the Airport (in a similar fashion to Luton Airport in 2012). The bidding was open to all coach operators who pre-qualified, and NatExp and Stansted CityLink were successful.
The tender provided for (a) access to stands in the Coach Station; (b) a sales desk (or more than one if desired) in the Airport and (c) a degree of exclusivity (so only those operators who were successful could operate services). It was necessary to pay for these rights and accesses . . . . . that's how the Airport manage their business (it is their property, after all).

There is no right of access to any Airport property anywhere . . . although access is normally freely made available to buses (provided they are on registered services); coaches (but maybe with a permit system . . as at Heathrow) and taxis.
Terravision and EasyBus tendered for these rights of access (as they had done in the past), but NatExp and CityLink paid more . . . . it's as simple as that!

This all took place 12 months ago, and Terravision threatened a court case, but didn't take it further. Accordingly, the Airport gave notice to ALL operators involved that Sunday 12 October was the due date for the changes to take place. Terravision and EasyBus WERE advised of this in July 2015, but chose not to do anything about it.

In this case, I don't know what else the Airport could have done, but these shenanigins are not of their making!! They looked at the Luton Airport case, and acted accordingly.

(and before anyone asks . . . . I'm not connected with the Airport, but I am with CityLink, so I do know what I'm rambling on about!!)

 

[ScotGG]

They've restricted all coach services to 2 companies? This has pushed up prices already, reduced flexibility (terravsion allowed boarding following coaches if flight late - not so NX) and cut services to east London in half. There is enough space for more than 2 companies but greed took over.

A crap deal for customers. Hopefully more people stop using Stansted. I've booked my next trip from Gatwick which at least has reasonable rail fares.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In this case, I don't know what else the Airport could have done, but these shenanigins are not of their making!! They looked at the Luton Airport case, and acted accordingly

It'll be interesting to see if it does go to court whether the court agrees.

I'd say that restricting the number of operators is affecting competition. It'll boil down to whether the airport is abusing a dominant position to distort competition, i.e. whether having two operators with exclusive access is enough competition to avoid the Luton problems. If CityLink are charging more than Terravision and National Express have increased their prices the airport is going to have problems, especially if part of the deal is that the airport gets a percentage cut of revenue.

I wouldn't share your optimism that these "shenanigans" are not the airport's fault or concern.

 

[greenline727]

CityLink will permit travel on later coaches if the flight is late arriving.

There are only two companies providing coach travel from Luton Airport to London (NatExp and Green Line). At Stansted Airport there are two coach companies, PLUS a direct train service. The train goes to Liverpool Street, NatExp to Stratford and Victoria and CityLink to Kings Cross . . . that's a pretty fair range of destinations really!

((The reason that CityLink goes to Kings Cross is that it reduces traffic delays across to Victoria (where there's no space in the Coach Station anyway) and KX has very good onward Tube links)).

I'm struggling to see what the downside is here . . . . .