'Enthusiasts' beyond the end of platforms

[SeanG]

I was at York yesterday to see Duchess of Sutherland. Now I rarely travel to see charters etc but was passing through so thought that I may as well hang on a bit to see the train.

I must note that the overwhelming majority of folk there were well behaved etc, as you would expect. However there were the few that went down the ramp at the end of the platform and one woman even went onto the ballast.

I was wondering, what was the general consensus about this behaviour on the forum, without wanting to start a riot.

I have photographs of the offenders, would it be appropriate to send them to BTP?

 

[yorkie]

I was wondering, what was the general consensus about this behaviour on the forum

Already been ascertained, multiple times.

Some example threads:-

• Trespass incident Ribblehead 6th Aug
• Trespass incident during PRCLT event at Appleby
• Is a Steam ban 'Inevitable'?
• Trainspotters banned from Peterborough?
• Spotters dicing with death
• Police hunt extreme trainspotter

I have photographs of the offenders, would it be appropriate to send them to BTP?

Yes.

 

[mbreckers]

I have photographs of the offenders, would it be appropriate to send them to BTP?

Yes, cause the minute one of them gets injured, or worse, it just makes like more difficult for all rail enthusiasts to do what they enjoy. And no doubt it would be the TOC/station operators fault if anything happened

 

[Agent_c]

Tie em to the tracks for an hour... First offence gets you a barely used branch line. If that doesn't scare you straight (or otherwise see an end to the problem), you get "upgraded" to a slightly more busy time until you get the message.... one way or the other...

 

[Mag_seven]

I was at York yesterday to see Duchess of Sutherland. Now I rarely travel to see charters etc but was passing through so thought that I may as well hang on a bit to see the train.

I must note that the overwhelming majority of folk there were well behaved etc, as you would expect. However there were the few that went down the ramp at the end of the platform and one woman even went onto the ballast.

I was wondering, what was the general consensus about this behaviour on the forum, without wanting to start a riot.

I have photographs of the offenders, would it be appropriate to send them to BTP?

When a steam charter is due there normally is a station staff/BTP presence to stop this sort of behaviour - was there no-one there yesterday?

 

[syorksdeano]

I think for instances like this station staff should be issued with tasers, and then when they get back up fine them 1000 quid

 

[Bungle965]

I have photographs of the offenders, would it be appropriate to send them to BTP?

Yes!
It these people who ruin the hobby for us.
Sam

 

[Adam0984]

I've been to York multiple times for charters and they usually have BTP/security moving people back behind the lines/signs, or at very least the VTEC staff come down to enforce it.

 

[theblackwatch]

Going down the ramp used to be considered acceptable. I'd be interested to know why has it become dangerous now, compared to, say, 20 years ago? Has a risk assessment concluded that it is no longer safe to go there, even though it presumably was before? There are certain railway stations where you still have to go down the ramp to exit the platform....

 

[A-driver]

Going down the ramp used to be considered acceptable. Why has it become dangerous now? Has a risk assessment concluded that it is no longer safe to go there, even though it presumably was before? There are certain railway stations where you still have to go down the ramp to exit the platform....

In those days anyone stupid enough to walk down the end of the ramp and get run over was simply seen as having removed themselves from the gene pool and it was firmly pointed at as being their fault.

Now a days someone who does something as stupid as walk off the platform simply to take a photo of a train somehow becomes the railways responsibility and when they trip up on ballast and break their arm, get hit by a train, electrocuted by a cable or live rail, trapped in moving points or killed/injured in one of many other ways their family scream and shout that the railway didn't do enough to protect their loved one and demand someone is held responsible for their death or injury (that's right, someone else must be responsible that they ignored the warning sign and decided it was a good idea to stand of the platform and at the bottom of the ramp just to take a photo they could just as easily get on the platform.)

Plus when some poor driver has the misfortune of killing some fool who believed it was a good idea to walk around the railway taking pictures they will have it ingrained in their mind for the rest of their life.

I have made emergency stops in the past and confronted people trespassing with cameras waiting for a steam train and I'll do it again. Regardless of what USED to happen, the railway is a very dangerous environment and is not a playground for spotters and photographers. Trespassers cause delays and risk themselves and other staff as well as wasting a lot of time and money at subsequent Enquires when their stupidity leads to a death for which blame 'must be found'.

 

[theblackwatch]

Someone on a ramp is not going to get hit by a train, unless it has derailed! Beyond it is a different matter. If the ramp is so dangerous, then surely 'the railway' should remove it?

 

[A-driver]

Someone on a ramp is not going to get hit by a train, unless it has derailed! Beyond it is a different matter. If the ramp is so dangerous, then surely 'the railway' should remove it?

The limit any passenger or spotter should be is the platform, not the ramp. You start allowing people onto the ramps and more people follow until people start going closer and closer until on the track.

Why does anyone need to be on the ramp anyway? Just stand safely on the platform behind the yellow line-simple.

 

[theblackwatch]

Which failed to answer any of my points....

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If the ramp is so dangerous, then surely 'the railway' should remove it?

Are they not doing just that whenever they extend or rebuild a platform these days?

 

[A-driver]

Which failed to answer any of my points....

Which points did I fail to answer?

As I say, it's simple enough. If someone goes to part of a station they should not be on(eg the ramps) and gets injured the railway risks legal action for failing to properly protect them.

Which points did I not satisfactorily address?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are they not doing just that whenever they extend or rebuild a platform these days?

Indeed they are. And many extensions are doing away with existing ramps. Cambridge P7/8, Finsbury Park, arlesey, sandy, Biggleswade platform extensions don't have ramps. I can't think of any Newley built platforms which have ramps actually.

Some stations still use the ramps (foxton, shepreth and meldreth for example) but that's the age of the station and protective measures are taken (fences etc).

 

[theblackwatch]

The points about risk assessments and if ramps are so dangerous, why they have not been removed (or fenced off in some way) - if it is, they should be asap, not just when platforms are extended. A lot of stations don't even have a sign advising you not to go down the ramp. And yes, some will argue that "it's obvious" people shouldn't - but is this really the case, when there are still some stations where you actually have to go down the ramp to get out, and it was considered perfectly acceptable in the past.

I realise though that as a driver that removing ramps isn't your responsibility!

 

[ComUtoR]

If there is a nice little sign stating quite clearly that you are not allowed beyond a certain point then you have no right to be there.

There is no if, and or but.

 

[A-driver]

The points about risk assessments and if ramps are so dangerous, why they have not been removed (or fenced off in some way) - if it is, they should be asap, not just when platforms are extended. A lot of stations don't even have a sign advising you not to go down the ramp. And yes, some will argue that "it's obvious" people shouldn't - but is this really the case, when there are still some stations where you actually have to go down the ramp to get out, and it was considered perfectly acceptable in the past.

I realise though that as a driver that removing ramps isn't your responsibility!

I have addressed those points.

It's not that they are dangerous but that if you allow anyone on the ramps they could become dangerous with people crowding on them and as they are narrower than platforms ending up with people on the line.

All platform ramps have signs telling you not to pass. If they don't then the sign has fallen off or been damaged etc and this should be reported.

There is no danger from the ramp being present so they don't need removing. The only danger is people thinking it acceptable to use them as a photo platform.

And the of course there is the fact that staff at the station do challenge people found on the ramps and ask them to move. So if the sign has been ignored etc then the staff can ask people to move off the ramp. Of course there are a minority of photographers who believe these rules don't apply to them and take great offence to any member of staff telling them to move.

Not sure what your points are regarding risk assessments. Think you misunderstand-the Ramos themselves are not dangerous but those people who ignore the signs and walk down them are.

 

[bramling]

The points about risk assessments and if ramps are so dangerous, why they have not been removed (or fenced off in some way) - if it is, they should be asap, not just when platforms are extended. A lot of stations don't even have a sign advising you not to go down the ramp. And yes, some will argue that "it's obvious" people shouldn't - but is this really the case, when there are still some stations where you actually have to go down the ramp to get out, and it was considered perfectly acceptable in the past.

I realise though that as a driver that removing ramps isn't your responsibility!

The difference where a ramp is part of the station access is that, apart from that it's often provided with a physical barrier, the arrangement is part of the station, and therefore there's a *need* for passengers to be there. Elsewhere, there is no requirement for public access as no train should be stopping there, so it makes sense for the 'passengers must not pass this point' sign to be at the top of the ramp. (What I don't understand is why some places have the sign further along than this for no real reason other than perhaps where that's where the nearest convenient post is, and in some cases where you get doors occasionally stopping in the intervening area).

Personally, being honest I'm not really bothered if someone is standing slightly onto the ramp providing I can see they're obviously taking a photo, my greater concern is that they're not too close to the edge. The difficulty is that drivers tend to operate on an element of autopilot due to the repetitive nature of the job, and because these areas are signed as out of bounds for logical reasons, by definition it's out of the ordinary to see someone standing there. It's all too easy for this distraction to lead to something being missed or overlooked whilst you're spending a few moments looking at what the person is doing and working out why they are there. This could end up contributing to a SPAD or similar, or result in the driver emergency braking the train if they decide the situation looks like, for example, a potential suicide.

Ramps are better for track staff as if you've just carried a load of gear half a mile down the track, it's more convenient to walk up a ramp than up stairs. However it seems the risk of trespass nowadays outweight this.

 

[Bevan Price]

Going down the ramp used to be considered acceptable. I'd be interested to know why has it become dangerous now, compared to, say, 20 years ago? Has a risk assessment concluded that it is no longer safe to go there, even though it presumably was before? There are certain railway stations where you still have to go down the ramp to exit the platform....

In many of the older photos where you see photographers on ramps, or even on the ballast, these were usually pre-arranged photo stops, and the inspector in charge of the train had checked with the signalbox to ensure that there were no other trains in the vicinity. All perfectly safe - and anybody ignoring safety warnings could expect some choice words from the inspector and/or the tour organiser.

 

[yorkie]

.... it makes sense for the 'passengers must not pass this point' sign to be at the top of the ramp. (What I don't understand is why some places have the sign further along than this for no real reason other than perhaps where that's where the nearest convenient post is, and in some cases where you get doors occasionally stopping in the intervening area).....

Which stations have a "Do not pass this point" sign before a point where passengers can board/alight? Such signs certainly should be moved!

 

[Bevan Price]

Which stations have a "Do not pass this point" sign before a point where passengers can board/alight? Such signs certainly should be moved!

Not checked recently, but at Stockport, there was a sign that was in an "incorrect" location for the rear of southbound 11 coach 390s.

 

[Daz9284]

Plus also the enthusiasts that stand within the cess, and sometimes the 4ft at foot crossings to take pictures, and sometimes even erect their tripods - absolute to$$ers.

 

[bramling]

Which stations have a "Do not pass this point" sign before a point where passengers can board/alight? Such signs certainly should be moved!

Alas I can't recall exact locations, but it's certainly by no means uncommon. A few in Cornwall where the last door on an HST is beyond the sign. I would add that in some cases this may be accompanied by the vague 'passengers must not cross the line' wording.

 

[yorkie]

Alas I can't recall exact locations, but it's certainly by no means uncommon. A few in Cornwall where the last door on an HST is beyond the sign. I would add that in some cases this may be accompanied by the vague 'passengers must not cross the line' wording.

The 'passengers must not cross the line' sign can be anywhere, as that's just telling people not to cross the [railway] line. It's the 'passengers must not pass this point' signs that I'm enquiring about.

 

[bramling]

The 'passengers must not cross the line' sign can be anywhere, as that's just telling people not to cross the [railway] line. It's the 'passengers must not pass this point' signs that I'm enquiring about.

As I say I can't remember locations as I've been to many many places over the years, but it's not at all uncommon -- especially outside the London area where longer formations were once rare.

On a related note, one place I do know, whilst not quite the same situation, is Camden Town platform 3 on LU. Here normally the last set of doors remain closed. However there are certain situations where this doesn't happen. The driver has no control over the last doors on the train. In the old days, the unofficial workaround for use when the automatic system didn't work was to draw the train close up to the starting signal and cut out the *front* doors on the train, which the driver can control. After resignalling and introducton of Seltrac signalling, the driver now can't draw forward as the system simply won't allow it. After a few months when this was noticed, a 'do not alight here' sign was hurriedly added, but alighting here will find yourself the wrong side of a sign and a swing gate. A bit of a bodge, but not much else that can be done here. No doubt eventually the redundant relay room that narrows the platform here will eventually get removed.

 

[SPADTrap]

The points about risk assessments and if ramps are so dangerous, why they have not been removed (or fenced off in some way) - if it is, they should be asap, not just when platforms are extended. A lot of stations don't even have a sign advising you not to go down the ramp. And yes, some will argue that "it's obvious" people shouldn't - but is this really the case, when there are still some stations where you actually have to go down the ramp to get out, and it was considered perfectly acceptable in the past.

I realise though that as a driver that removing ramps isn't your responsibility!

The attitude of 'acceptable in the past' is worrying coming from a moderator who IMO (yes that is in my opinion) should have a slightly more responsible attitude.

 

[furnessvale]

Not checked recently, but at Stockport, there was a sign that was in an "incorrect" location for the rear of southbound 11 coach 390s.

I don't know if it is still there, but there was a "Passengers must not cross the line" sign on the last lamppost on one of the platforms.

I was beyond this sign but still fully on the platform when I heard the irate bellowing of some uniformed jobsworth "can't you f*****g read!" I ignored the bellow until it was in my ear when I politely informed him I could read and asked him to read the sign.

Only the production of my warrant card (before retirement) and informing him of his imminent arrest calmed him down. He went off muttering but I can well imagine that others would have been ordered off the station under the loitering bylaw.

 

[SPADTrap]

I don't know if it is still there, but there was a "Passengers must not cross the line" sign on the last lamppost on one of the platforms.

I was beyond this sign but still fully on the platform when I heard the irate bellowing of some uniformed jobsworth "can't you f*****g read!" I ignored the bellow until it was in my ear when I politely informed him I could read and asked him to read the sign.

Only the production of my warrant card (before retirement) and informing him of his imminent arrest calmed him down. He went off muttering but I can well imagine that others would have been ordered off the station under the loitering bylaw.

Myth busted, a warrant card will stop a train from hitting you :razz:

Imminent arrest...:roll:

 

[A-driver]

I don't know if it is still there, but there was a "Passengers must not cross the line" sign on the last lamppost on one of the platforms.



I was beyond this sign but still fully on the platform when I heard the irate bellowing of some uniformed jobsworth "can't you f*****g read!" I ignored the bellow until it was in my ear when I politely informed him I could read and asked him to read the sign.



Only the production of my warrant card (before retirement) and informing him of his imminent arrest calmed him down. He went off muttering but I can well imagine that others would have been ordered off the station under the loitering bylaw.

Ah, so you were a train proof policeman were you with one of those Warrant cards which protects you from high voltage electricity and trains.

And of course being a policeman means you don't have to listen to rail staff asking you to move away from places you are not authorised to be.

Thankfully most police officers are respectful to staff and see the advantages of working together and not looking down on them as 'uniformed jobsworths'.

I'm also going to guess that the staff member didn't shout the 'f' word at you as few members of staff are stupid enough to risk their job by swearing in front of passengers. But your story sounds better and more favourable to you if it sounds like the staff were swearing at you rather than asking you to move back into the authorised area of the platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Myth busted, a warrant card will stop a train from hitting you :razz:

Imminent arrest...:roll:

"You are under arrest for doing your job and asking me to move out of a restricted area, despite the fact that I'm the one clearly in the wrong as I've walked past a no entry sign. But I'm a policeman so very important and I'll do whatever I want and if you try to tell me to do anything I'll threaten you with abuse of my powers".

Would love to see how long that 'arrest' lasted for!