Class 387

[465fan]

nice ideas......

but... the TL 377/2 are needed at southern for Milton Keynes strengthening for a start

New layout for the suburban 377s has been mentioned in Dft and Network Rail documents, but no more than a mention i believe. This shouldve been done when the 377s got refreshed.... but currently 377s are used so expansively youll find a unit on an Ore to Victoria being used on a Victora to Sutton via Crystal Palace just hours later for example.

and the 313s are definately at southern until at least the end of the franchise.

But the 377/5s will be on Southern... And more of them!

313s should be gone - the point is that we should devise a fleet strategy now that fits the future.

 

[JonathanH]

Hold the 377/5s on Southern (23) and send the 455s to the Coastway; being sure to keep back the Trailer Coaches to send to SWT to get rid of the 508 coaches. Fit them with Crappers and let them ply their trade as a uniform fleet based at Lover's Walk to Portsmouth, Southampton, Ore, Seaford, Littlehampton, West Worthing. If needs be, provide some surplus to SWT for use as 3+3+4 on Metro.

Why is it necessary to remove the 508 trailers from the 455/7s? Is there any evidence that they are in a worse condition than the other carriages? Better would be to make the 455/7s up to 5-car using the spare Southern 455/8s coaches for the 10-car railway. South West Trains have 91 455s, 43 7s, 28 8s and 20 9s plus the 24 456s. 24 456s work with the 455/8s and 455/9s and the 455/7s are 5-car. Isn't that a better solution (assuming that you could uprate the new traction motors being added)?

 

[northwichcat]

365s which used to work on DC and which would work incredibly ably on anything from London to Tunbridge Wells, Gillingham via Longfield and then as far as Dover, Ramsgate, Ashford and Canterbury? A fleet which would mean that the Bombardier stuff, which is newer, could go to a more adequate home?

I'm thinking of the wider rolling stock plans. If you put dual powered EMUs on 3rd rail routes and release 3rd rail only EMUs then you're limiting options as most electrified routes have overheads. However, if you're proposing the Bombardier 375/6s are released instead of 465/9s then it might be a different story.

 

[physics34]

......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the 377/5s will be on Southern... And more of them!

313s should be gone - the point is that we should devise a fleet strategy now that fits the future.

but the 23x 377/5 are needed for KX to Cambridge etc..... 15 x 377/2 isnt enough.

 

[465fan]

Why is it necessary to remove the 508 trailers from the 455/7s? Is there any evidence that they are in a worse condition than the other carriages? Better would be to make the 455/7s up to 5-car using the spare Southern 455/8s coaches for the 10-car railway. South West Trains have 91 455s, 43 7s, 28 8s and 20 9s plus the 24 456s. 24 456s work with the 455/8s and 455/9s and the 455/7s are 5-car. Isn't that a better solution (assuming that you could uprate the new traction motors being added)?

Why keep the 508 coaches? They have a slightly reduced seating capacity and they're old - least you can do is give someone an '85 coach and not a '75 one. The 455s as 5 car relies on one motor coach now trying to push 4 dead and not 3. The acceleration will come tumbling down and the wear will go up. Would Southern need 46 3 car 455s for West and East Coastway? They've got 19 313s and were planning a few more (apparently) as well as the 377 diagrams. 46 would mean you could have some 6 car services as well; surely handy at peak times. If 46 is too much, perhaps SWT could have some to make more 10 car diagrams; but with the 458/5s now almost done and with 707s on the way... That seems doubtful in need.

 

[northwichcat]

least you can do is give someone an '85 coach and not a '75 one.

455s were introduced in service in 1982, the 508s were introduced in 1979 (1 year after the 507s) so there's only 3 years difference.

 

[D365]

Send all of the 365s (40) to South Eastern; use them to release the 465/9 fleet etc. and on other relevent routes. Can the proposed move of 319s / 377s to Southeastern.

Capacity vacuum on the Great Northern fulfilled by the 700s in part but missing some extra capacity - move the Class 377/2 fleet up there (15) which makes 4 x 12 car diagrams for additionals out of King's Cross or some 8 cars.

Err... Current plans for the GN (Kings Cross departing) post-2018 fleet are for 19x 377/5 and 19x 365. Can you explain how you have bought requirements down from a 38-strong 4-car fleet to just 15 units?

According to my maths, anyway...

Not quite sure how to respond to the rest of it!

They did a test. Driver was apparently a bit shaky but a 377/5 made it.

Last time I heard that old wives' tale, it was a 378 that made the journey

 

[465fan]

......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


but the 23x 377/5 are needed for KX to Cambridge etc..... 15 x 377/2 isnt enough.

With the 700s covering Cambridge x 4 hourly and Peterborough x 2 hourly; all you need (apparently) is an hourly King's Lynn (that's in the documents) as well as some peak spares for a couple of Roystons (although they could disappear in the TL 2018 timetable) and some extra PBOs. 15 should be more than enough if there's 6 x 2 car diagrams for King's Lynn during off-peak. Very adequate. You need 2 units stuck to shuttle between London and Cambridge on the hourly timetable; each time splitting a four car / attaching a 4 car from Lynn. That's 4 units. So you need 6 physical units on the Lynn branch. In peak time, you would need an extra 2 for some 12 car services out of King's Cross, bare in mind that Thameslink picks up the other 4 services; so that's 8. That allows a 17:14 and an 18:14 (or so) 12 car express out of King's Cross; when the City folk will have converted (mostly) to using TL and their 12 car trains for their 4 trains to Cambridge an hour (an increase of 1tph at peak overall including a KGX starter). That leaves 7 units, so with 1 off on exam, that's 2 more 12 cars for extra Peterborough services (fast to St Neots) at 17:10 and 18:10; needing one Class 700 diagram at 17:40 for the final one.

According to my maths, that makes 15 x 377/2 enough for King's Lynn and extras; using the Class 700 fleet spares at Hornsey for one or two diagrams at peak times and allowing them daytime maintenance.

 

[WatcherZero]

They are being delivered between a year and half and two years before Corby is even due to be electrified, possibility of further delays and would also have to be staff training, gauging and stress testing. If they were for MML they would be sitting unused for quite a long time.

 

[465fan]

Err... Current plans for the GN (Kings Cross departing) post-2018 fleet are for 19x 377/5 and 19x 365. Can you explain how you have bought requirements down from a 38-strong 4-car fleet to just 15 units?



Not quite sure how to respond to the rest of it!



Last time I heard that old wives' tale, it was a 378 that made the journey

You'll have 4tph from St Pancras to Cambridge all-day on current models; along with 2tph from St Pancras to Peterborough. That leaves a deficit of:

King's Lynn (hourly) and additional Peterborough fasts. My calculations confirm that using a Class 700 fleet spare and the 377/2s; you make all of the relevant 12 car trains for the evening peak period.

 

[D365]

You'll have 4tph from St Pancras to Cambridge all-day on current models; along with 2tph from St Pancras to Peterborough. That leaves a deficit of:

King's Lynn (hourly) and additional Peterborough fasts. My calculations confirm that using a Class 700 fleet spare and the 377/2s; you make all of the relevant 12 car trains for the evening peak period.

So what you're saying is that the residual GN Kings Cross fleet can be condensed to only 15 Class 377/2s, with no more than the current 55 12-car 700/1s on order?

That's quite an ambitious statement when the DfT 'maths' gives us 38 4-car units.

 

[465fan]

So what you're saying is that the residual GN Kings Cross fleet can be condensed to only 15 Class 377/2s, with no more than the current 55 12-car 700/1s on order?

That's quite an ambitious statement when the DfT 'maths' gives us 38 4-car units.

The same DfT who makes such woeful decisions on a daily basis?

At the end of the day, if the number of 377/2s isn't deemed enough, simply attach a couple of 377/5s and let them all play together happily. That said, with the number of routes that will be Class 700 and the sheer frequency of same, there should be no problem. The current King's Cross fleet is operating 2 x Peterborough and 4 x Cambridge each hour. That will all go to Thameslink at off-peak and peak times with the only exception being a need for a King's Lynn out of the Cross; and perhaps some extras. The number of Class 700s which will languish around Hornsey even during peak times will be rather vast; a single Class 700 with 12 cars will be capable of replacing 3 x 365 on a Peterborough alone. Thousands of people will change their travelling habits, no doubt, to use Thameslink. King's Cross will never have looked so desolate...

 

[D365]

The same DfT who makes such woeful decisions on a daily basis?

Maybe, but I would never expect them to make an overallocation by such a significant margin, compared to what you are saying.

King's Cross will never have looked so desolate...

Doubt it. Obviously all 12-car GN and full-length InterCity trains will continue to park in the main trainshed. Greater turnaround capacity for the proposed additional VTEC/OAO LDHS services is possible. Plus it may well be possible for 5-car InterCity trains (be it a Class 800, 801 or 180) to use P9-11.

 

[jopsuk]

Um, the off-peak GN will be 2xPBO Thameslink, 2xCaterham-Cambridge slow TL (8-car) and 2xBrighton-Cambridge fast TL (12 car) plus 2x Kings Lynn (KGX-CBG Non stop).

if the KLN services are 8-car south of Cambridge and 4-car north, that means that off-peak service needs (I think) at least 12 units. But the Peak will happily swallow up the 19 377 and 19 365- they have actually done the modelling and forecasting for this, the numbers haven't been plucked out of the air.

If you want a convoluted idea, send the 20 extra 387s to GW, transfer the 377/2 and four 377/4, all converted to 377/5 specification, to GN to have a single simple fleet there. (re)fit the all the 365s with 3rd rail kit and set them loose in Kent, transferring more 375s into 377s for Southern. Puts all the Networkers in one place, most of the 387s in one place. Means SE can send the 319s north. Um, complex.

 

[OxtedL]

Cambridge goes up to 6 trains an hour post-Thameslink, 4 of which go to Thameslink and 2 stay fast into Kings Cross - these latter 2 include the Kings Lynn trains.

This is one of a number of problems with your maths, 465fan, so I expect your plans simply don't work.

 

[465fan]

Maybe, but I would never expect them to make an overallocation by such a significant margin, compared to what you are saying.

Doubt it. Obviously all 12-car GN and full-length InterCity trains will continue to park in the main trainshed. Greater turnaround capacity for the proposed additional VTEC/OAO LDHS services is possible. Plus it may well be possible for 5-car InterCity trains (be it a Class 800, 801 or 180) to use P9-11.

Not so sure.

As I say, the only thing you are missing at 2018 from King's Cross up at peak times is a King's Lynn and two Peterborough fasts each hour. If you've ever been on the Peterborough fasts you'll know they're a bit quiet...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cambridge goes up to 6 trains an hour post-Thameslink, 4 of which go to Thameslink and 2 stay fast into Kings Cross - these latter 2 include the Kings Lynn trains.

This is one of a number of problems with your maths, 465fan, so I expect your plans simply don't work.

Actually it's the only problem. Solved by supplementing the 377/2s with 377/5s or having a fleet of 377/5s up there and keeping the 377/2s on West London...

If they are planning 6tph Cambridge, then clearly somebody needs to sit down and ascertain whether demand even exists.

 

[D365]

Not so sure.

As I say, the only thing you are missing at 2018 from King's Cross up at peak times is a King's Lynn and two Peterborough fasts each hour. If you've ever been on the Peterborough fasts you'll know they're a bit quiet...

Try that one on my father - he's been a full-time London commuter for nigh-on 20 years...

If they are planning 6tph Cambridge, then clearly somebody needs to sit down and ascertain whether demand even exists.

Where's your evidence that it doesn't exist?

 

[jopsuk]

If they are planning 6tph Cambridge, then clearly somebody needs to sit down and ascertain whether demand even exists.

They have. This has been done. The DfT have had it doen before the ITT, the bidders for the franchise will have been through the modelling to ensure they knew what they were dealing with (and could have submitted bids that had a lower service level if they were able to justify it).

 

[OxtedL]

Actually it's the only problem. Solved by supplementing the 377/2s with 377/5s or having a fleet of 377/5s up there and keeping the 377/2s on West London...

If they are planning 6tph Cambridge, then clearly somebody needs to sit down and ascertain whether demand even exists.

To run the 2tph Cambridge's as 12 car in the peak will require at least 4 x 3 units. A similar amount would be required for 2tph Peterborough extras. When you throw in further units for Kings Lynn, the figure being repeatedly quoted here of 38 units becomes completely believable for future demand. I do not know exactly what with the final ECML peak timetable looks like so unfortunately cannot demonstrate to you explicit final numbers, but I hope you can immediately see that 15 units "plus a couple of others taken from the Southern WCML pool" won't cut it. This has been discussed to death already on this and other threads.

The 6tph breaks down as 2tph useful London trains from each of Thameslink (semi-fast) and Kings Cross (fast) and 2tph serving intermediate stations, where travel could be to either London or Cambridge. This pattern is not aimed at just meeting demand from Cambridge to London, but at meeting demand for all the different patterns of travel on the whole route.

 

[D365]

The 6tph breaks down as 2tph useful London trains from each of Thameslink (semi-fast) and Kings Cross (fast) and 2tph serving intermediate stations, where travel could be to either London or Cambridge. This pattern is not aimed at just meeting demand from Cambridge to London, but at meeting demand for all the different patterns of travel on the whole route.

Just as an additional note, I have been lead to understand that the Cambridge stoppers will be serviced by 8-car Class 700/0s, owing to platform lengths at intermediate stations...

 

[hwl]

Just a thought -
Goblin electrification should be finished June 2017 but the rolling stock (710s) doesn't start being delivered till December 2018 so they will need some stock to operate an electricied Goblin till the already ordered new stock arrives.

 

[WatcherZero]

Tony miles has said he doesnt think EMT either.
Roger Ford is saying a short term London home then available for newly electrified, porterbrook grabbed them because it was the last production slot for the class.

 

[D365]

Just a thought -
Goblin electrification should be finished June 2017 but the rolling stock (710s) doesn't start being delivered till December 2018 so they will need some stock to operate an electrified Goblin till the already ordered new stock arrives.

Good point; it'll be too early to pinch any TfL Rail 315s, or GN 317s/321s?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Roger Ford is saying a short term London home then available for newly electrified, porterbrook grabbed them because it was the last production slot for the class.

So it's all but confirmed which line will be 'Goblin' them up then

 

[87015]

Good point; it'll be too early to pinch any TfL Rail 315s, or GN 317s/321s?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So it's all but confirmed which line will be 'Goblin' them up then

Well among other bits, even an enhanced T&H doesn't need 20 units. The DC bit earlier should have set more bells off...

 

[D365]

Well among other bits, even an enhanced T&H doesn't need 20 units. The DC bit earlier should have set more bells off...

Sorry, I read "London" and "newly electrified" as being the same thing. I'm not familiar at all with the network south of the Thames

Is Goblin and Watford DC worth a stab?

 

[Bishopstone]

Island Line, to supplement the 442s in peak season.

 

[ScotGG]

Southeastern could do with more stock around this time. London Bridge rebuild stage 2 kicks off with some hefty services alterations/cuts in mid 2016, and overcrowding is rising quickly on the metro lines as it is.

 

[3141]

I wonder if this is also a clever move by Bombardier as well as by Porterbrook. It's generally agreed that TOCs prefer to have the smallest number of different types of stock as possible, because it reduces the problems of stores for maintenance and the need for staff to be expert on more types of equipment. It's also useful if a train breaks down for the next train to be a similar type able to push the first one out. So if there are 20 or maybe more units of 387s already available when companies are preparing new franchise bids there's a greater chance that they may opt for these, and then any further new stock they want will probably be of the same type, so rival train-builders would find it harder to compete.

 

[Class377/5]

Er Kings Cross to Kings Lynn is 2tph from 2017 and plan is 12 cars up to Cambridge in peak. Certainly Messes up someone's fanasty figures. But reality is annoying like that.

Sound like a soluation looking for a problem while single handly causing issues else wherefor no real benefit. But go crazy the crayons, but no 377/5 has been down to Moorgate.

 

[Hophead]

Tony miles has said he doesnt think EMT either.
Roger Ford is saying a short term London home then available for newly electrified, porterbrook grabbed them because it was the last production slot for the class.

If I can remember back a few pages, is there not an option for a similar number of vehicles to be procured? These would seem to be a more likely candidate for Corby (assuming they do exist and I haven't just invented them).