Train driver speed habits

[Gathursty]

As my TPE was passing alongside the M602 in Eccles, I saw some cars going faster and slower than us which led me to wonder...

... If the speed limit is 70 for example, does the train driver have to keep it at 70 without deviation or can they go a little up or down as we car drivers would normally do on a motorway (providing it is a good weather day to not confuse things)?

 

[6Gman]

As my TPE was passing alongside the M602 in Eccles, I saw some cars going faster and slower than us which led me to wonder...

... If the speed limit is 70 for example, does the train driver have to keep it at 70 without deviation or can they go a little up or down as we car drivers would normally do on a motorway (providing it is a good weather day to not confuse things)?

Surely you're not suggesting that car drivers sometimes exceed 70mph on the motorway ! ?

On the main point speed limits on the railway are limits and any driver exceeding them could be called in for tea and biscuits with a manager. (Due allowance having been made for possible speedometer error etc)

 

[neilb62]

As my TPE was passing alongside the M602 in Eccles, I saw some cars going faster and slower than us which led me to wonder...

... If the speed limit is 70 for example, does the train driver have to keep it at 70 without deviation or can they go a little up or down as we car drivers would normally do on a motorway (providing it is a good weather day to not confuse things)?

Generally we try to keep to the exact speed where possible, a little under is fine so long as time isn't lost, a little over may well get you an interview with the boss when it shows up on a data-recorder download, or worse a TPWS brake demand approaching a speed restriction. On the TASS controlled units (221/390) an over speed warning is given, ignore it and add another 1.5 mph or so and you get an emergency brake application that cannot be overridden until speed has been reduced by 25mph... That WILL arouse interest from the powers that be...

 

[trainophile]

So it's pointless, if I'm on a late running train, to hope that it will somehow "make up time"?

 

[neilb62]

So it's pointless, if I'm on a late running train, to hope that it will somehow "make up time"?

Yes, you'll have to hope it has some recovery time built into its schedule...

 

[ainsworth74]

So it's pointless, if I'm on a late running train, to hope that it will somehow "make up time"?

These days yes (unless there is recovery built into the schedule) back in the good/bad old days however...

 

[neilb62]

These days yes (unless there is recovery built into the schedule) back in the good/bad old days however...

Ahem... Indeed....

 

[Bevan Price]

Generally we try to keep to the exact speed where possible, a little under is fine so long as time isn't lost, a little over may well get you an interview with the boss when it shows up on a data-recorder download, or worse a TPWS brake demand approaching a speed restriction. On the TASS controlled units (221/390) an over speed warning is given, ignore it and add another 1.5 mph or so and you get an emergency brake application that cannot be overridden until speed has been reduced by 25mph... That WILL arouse interest from the powers that be...

Are some classes more difficult to control than others ? On the Huyton - St. Helens Central - Springs Branch section, class 319 often seems to oscillate by about 2-3 mph on either side of the overall 60 mph limit, possibly due to fairly frequent changes in the gradient. I have also observed similar behaviour elsewhere with Class 175.

(And to deviate OT a bit - I wonder if/when they might raise what seems an unreasonably low limit for the straighter sections of this line ?)

 

[neilb62]

Gradients will always play a part in speed unless the unit is fitted with cruise control, so yes you can expect some variation. There is no point making work for yourself trying to keep speed exactly on the mark, one of my old drivers told me 'the less you wave those levers about the better you are doing' and I still stick by that.

 

[6Gman]

So it's pointless, if I'm on a late running train, to hope that it will somehow "make up time"?

Well, speed limits are usually for one of three reasons:

a) curvature
b) condition of track
c) braking distances/ signal sighting

So, unless you're sanguine about the idea of derailment or a SPAD ....

 

[Alfie1014]

These days yes (unless there is recovery built into the schedule) back in the good/bad old days however...

Commuting on the LTS in the 1970/80s on the faster peak trains I could always tell what sort of journey we were about to have by the time we left the station throat at Fenchurch Street and how enthusiastically the driver was operating the train! It was a combination of a very confident driver knowing the track, signalling and train very well pushing them to limits. Probably not very efficient by modern standards, but quite often a lively and enjoyable end to the day.

 

[asylumxl]

The title gave me the impression this thread would be about something else...

At least they'd be very alert.

 

[furnessvale]

These days yes (unless there is recovery built into the schedule) back in the good/bad old days however...

I don't think it is quite that bad.

I have been in the cab from Glasgow to Preston where the driver recovered five minutes from Glasgow to Carlisle and a further five minutes to Preston, irrespective of recovery allowances.

It took very precise driving, exactly to speed limits with firm precise braking to bring the train to the required speed limit exactly when required.

In short, it was a masterclass in driving!

 

[mbreckers]

So it's pointless, if I'm on a late running train, to hope that it will somehow "make up time"?

you can also of course cancel some stops to make time up

 

[D1009]

you can also of course cancel some stops to make time up

Not as a driver you can't!

 

[ComUtoR]

Not as a driver you can't!

It's possible.

 

[neilb62]

I'd love to know how [emoji38]

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd love to know how [emoji38]

Just don't stop

 

[ComUtoR]

I'd love to know how

I've been at capacity and squeezing passengers in like sardines. As I consider that unsafe and generally unpleasant, I call the Signaler. "I'm full to the brim and can't take any more passengers. I'm losing xx minutes and I reckon I'm gonna lose much more. Can you please inform control..." "please run fast to xx"

I've also been in situations where I've got a minor fault but I've been asked to keep it in service. "Np Sig. Please inform control that I'll be running at caution..." Suffice to say you end up running fast to.

Running late on your PNB and it will affect your next working. Instead of cancelling it (if its that late) talk to control and suggest to run fast to, skip stop etc

I've been diverted and been told to run all stations down the diverted route. So I say. "Why ? Nobody on the train wants any of the stops and as I'm diverted nobody is expecting my train" Being diverted needs a bit of common sense and if you know the routes then you can suggest a sensible stopping pattern (interchanges etc)

I've also done the reverse. Suggested that ECS trains are brought into service to help disruption, suggested stops on a diversion where asked to run fast, and a couple of times I have flat refused a "not to call" as I've had passengers onboard that I know needed those stops.

You are the Driver, not a robot. We are on the ground and can see what is happening. It doesn't hurt to speak to control and the Signaler, if only to provide up to date information so that better decisions can be made.

 

[dk1]

I used to pride myself on making up time. Yes it was against the rule book but thankfully nothing went wrong & everyone was a winner. Train driving is very dull these days in comparison. Technology has a lot to answer for

 

[neilb62]

It's years since I drove suburban and have little chance of getting in the situations you describe. However the last time I argued with control when I was on the Southern I ended up with a Form 1!

 

[ComUtoR]

However the last time I argued with control when I was on the Southern I ended up with a Form 1!

I don't argue.

I have found in my experience that if you suggest you will be running at caution because of X reason you often find yourself skipping stops.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It's years since I drove suburban and have little chance of getting in the situations you describe. However the last time I argued with control when I was on the Southern I ended up with a Form 1!

Is a "Form 1" what someone receives when they're getting a bollocking for something minor?

 

[TDK]

Are some classes more difficult to control than others ? On the Huyton - St. Helens Central - Springs Branch section, class 319 often seems to oscillate by about 2-3 mph on either side of the overall 60 mph limit, possibly due to fairly frequent changes in the gradient. I have also observed similar behaviour elsewhere with Class 175.

(And to deviate OT a bit - I wonder if/when they might raise what seems an unreasonably low limit for the straighter sections of this line ?)

And how would you know this?

Speeds are in place for a reason be it signalling, track infrastructure etc. Mainly down to signal sighting and spacing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is a "Form 1" what someone receives when they're getting a bollocking for something minor?

A form 1 is a written warning and is serious

 

[furnessvale]

And how would you know this?

Speeds are in place for a reason be it signalling, track infrastructure etc. Mainly down to signal sighting and spacing.

A classic example was the 45mph limit on 10ft wheelbase wagons.

Research had shown that harmonics within the wagon caused oscillation at 49mph. The solution was to restrict speed to 45.

Unfortunately some drivers were of the mind that 5 mph over the top wouldn't matter if they were running late, which had the obvious consequence of putting the train in the danger zone.

If only the true situation had been explained, drivers would have known to stay at 45, or if brave, pull the train through to 55 where the oscillation settled down again.

 

[notadriver]

I don't think it is quite that bad.



I have been in the cab from Glasgow to Preston where the driver recovered five minutes from Glasgow to Carlisle and a further five minutes to Preston, irrespective of recovery allowances.



It took very precise driving, exactly to speed limits with firm precise braking to bring the train to the required speed limit exactly when required.



In short, it was a masterclass in driving!

Excellent what kind of train were you in ?

 

[matchmaker]

So it's pointless, if I'm on a late running train, to hope that it will somehow "make up time"?

Depends. If you are on a service timed for a 75mph unit (like a 156) but are in a unit with a higher top speed (158 or 170) then if there are sufficient clear sections of line with a suitable speed limit a driver could make up time.

 

[Zoidberg]

The title gave me the impression this thread would be about something else...

At least they'd be very alert.

Me, too. I felt such a dope when I realised ...

Interesting contributions, though.

 

[The Planner]

I don't think it is quite that bad.

I have been in the cab from Glasgow to Preston where the driver recovered five minutes from Glasgow to Carlisle and a further five minutes to Preston, irrespective of recovery allowances.

It took very precise driving, exactly to speed limits with firm precise braking to bring the train to the required speed limit exactly when required.

In short, it was a masterclass in driving!

So you recovered more than 5 between each then if it was irrespective of allowances? Unless there were TSRs on you would have got back 3 to Carlisle and 3 to Preston anyway as part of the engineering allowance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Depends. If you are on a service timed for a 75mph unit (like a 156) but are in a unit with a higher top speed (158 or 170) then if there are sufficient clear sections of line with a suitable speed limit a driver could make up time.

That only tends to work on services without many stops as otherwise you will just sit at a station and wait time.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Gradients will always play a part in speed unless the unit is fitted with cruise control, so yes you can expect some variation. There is no point making work for yourself trying to keep speed exactly on the mark, one of my old drivers told me 'the less you wave those levers about the better you are doing' and I still stick by that.

That's the way I was taught too, if you can drive a train just using the power handle and let the gradients do the work for you, then the jobs a goodun.

I've been given a warning for doing 2.1mph over the limit for just 10s on a downhill section which I think is rather pathetic as I corrected it immediately. But there you go!

As for making up time, I was taught with the 3 step brake to use step 3 as initial application and then work it back off & come to stand in step 1, nowadays they're taught to use step 2 as the initial application, so they have steps 3 & 4 (emergency) to fall back on. I was also taught to brake earlier & lighter too.

I use the earlier & lighter technique for this time of year, I find it most conducive to handling and not having any unwanted chats in the office.

Yet in good weather, I can if I want to use the good old fashioned step 3 initial application system and make up bags of time.