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Water Troughs

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a_c_skinner

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Driving up the M6 the other day past Dillicar Common I suddenly mused that the sites of water troughs had to be dead level (I assume...) and wondered if the sites used were serendipitously level or had to be made so when troughs were installed. I assume the original laying out of the line was well before these devices were envisaged.

Andrew
 
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edwin_m

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Not sure how long troughs were but probably several hundred yards, in which case trying to level a section of hilly route would have changed the vertical alignment fairly drastically. Fortunately it seems to have been possible to find level sections on most routes, even the LNWR Manchester-Huddersfield line where the only level section was in Standedge Tunnels. Station areas were often level too, although it would not be possible to lay water troughs near pointwork - to say nothing of soaking anyone foolish enough to wait on the platform!

If no site could be found then I guess it would have been a case of making extra stops for water, which might have been needed anyway on long climbs to attach and detach assisting engines. There was probably a minimum speed for the scoops to work as well, which could also have been a problem on long climbs.
 
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SemaphoreSam

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I assume much planning went into providing these troughs, to assure a constant supply of water, dealing with ice (heaters?), and possible negative effects on the right-of-way (rails, cross-ties, keys, etc) of constant water sloshing. Probably more complicated than it looks, at first blush (or slosh); probably gangers had special tasks, to inspect for damage, as the stresses on these troughs must have been significant. Sam
 

Taunton

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There was probably a minimum speed for the scoops to work as well
About 40 mph was ideal, performance fell off under that, but also over that as you got a "bow wave" ahead of the scoop, less water loaded and more spillage. Photographs of expresses at speed with substantial spillage coming from the scoop area under the tender show this. There was a further problem that at higher speeds it could be difficult for the fireman to raise the scoop when the tender tank got full due to water pressure against the scoop, whereupon all sorts of problems could arise as water suddenly started discharging from the overflow pipes on the tender - leading coach soaked (remember open window ventilators), coal washed from tender top, which might break the windows of the leading coach, etc. The way round this was not to dip the scoop too much at higher speeds, but then you didn't get a good fill, so if things were looking empty a drop in speed would help. Troughs also gave problems for the second engine of a double header. Now we rarely double headed on the Western of course :) but on the WCML it must have been an issue.

We had troughs at Creech, about two miles east of Taunton, when it was four track there. A further problem was these took quite some time to refill, and if you were following another train, and one or more had picked up on the adjacent tracks as well, you might well find it empty. There was a lineside pumping station which pumped the water from the canal alongside. It presume it had some good filters as that canal was always green with weed. I also seem to recall a boarded foot crossing just beyond one end of the troughs, if you didn't have the scoop up in time that could spell trouble - the scoop had a weak point in its construction so if it struck pointwork etc it would break off before doing any serious track damage..
 
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neilb62

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On a double header over here (WCML) the lead loco was supposed to dip the second half of the trough so it didn't rob the second loco of water. It took some coordination and memoirs show it wasn't always done leading to the second crew shutting the dampers and 'putting their feet up' so to speak!
 

Welshman

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There was a further problem that at higher speeds it could be difficult for the fireman to raise the scoop when the tender tank got full due to water pressure against the scoop, whereupon all sorts of problems could arise as water suddenly started discharging from the overflow pipes on the tender - leading coach soaked (remember open window ventilators), coal washed from tender top, which might break the windows of the leading coach, etc.


I remember reading somewhere that this hazard led to drivers of the early dmus learning to duck instinctively when passing a steam-hauled train on the toughs, as there was the danger of a large lump of coal crashing through the front windscreen.
 

70014IronDuke

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About 40 mph was ideal, performance fell off under that, but also over that as you got a "bow wave" ahead of the scoop, less water loaded and more spillage.

I thought there was a 60 mph speed limit imposed for picking up at troughs - or was that just on the LMR?

... Troughs also gave problems for the second engine of a double header. Now we rarely double headed on the Western of course :) but on the WCML it must have been an issue.

The WCML had a troughs a plenty tho, seemed like every 20-25 miles, so a poor take at one could be recovered at the next, I'd imagine.

The Midland - which saw much piloting by 2P and 4P 4-4-0s and later Class 5s and 5Xs, must have been a different matter - only one set of troughs, at Oakley, between Leicester and St Pancras, just short of 100 miles. And if the train was from Nottingham via Melton (approx 126 miles) you had just two sets, IIRC.

Having said that, I can't remember ANY reports of trains needing to stop for water.
 

John Webb

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I assume much planning went into providing these troughs, to assure a constant supply of water, dealing with ice (heaters?), and possible negative effects on the right-of-way (rails, cross-ties, keys, etc) of constant water sloshing. Probably more complicated than it looks, at first blush (or slosh); probably gangers had special tasks, to inspect for damage, as the stresses on these troughs must have been significant. Sam
The only heated water troughs I've read about were those just south of Garsdale/Hawes Junction station on the Settle and Carlisle line.

The track in the vicinity of water troughs was given protection by boards or other means to minimise disturbance to the track and its ballast by water splashing from the trough as a loco picked up water.
 

neilmc

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Never given this issue much thought, but yet another complexity in the running of a steam railway with seemingly lots of potential for delays and damage!
 

70014IronDuke

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I assume much planning went into providing these troughs, to assure a constant supply of water, dealing with ice (heaters?), and possible negative effects on the right-of-way (rails, cross-ties, keys, etc) of constant water sloshing. Probably more complicated than it looks, at first blush (or slosh); probably gangers had special tasks, to inspect for damage, as the stresses on these troughs must have been significant. Sam

There was also an issue with water softening. Probably not needed at the troughs mentioned by the OP, as the water on the Pennine moors was not so hard (I'm guessing), but in chalk river areas, it would be serious. The softening process produced a white-grey sludge, and this had to be shipped out. ISTR reading that Goring troughs on the GWR across the Thames had siding for the sludge wagons. As you say, more complicated than might be first thought.
 

krus_aragon

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I assume much planning went into providing these troughs, to assure a constant supply of water, dealing with ice (heaters?), and possible negative effects on the right-of-way (rails, cross-ties, keys, etc) of constant water sloshing. Probably more complicated than it looks, at first blush (or slosh); probably gangers had special tasks, to inspect for damage, as the stresses on these troughs must have been significant. Sam

I've read (but I forget where) that gangers would be tasked with breaking surface ice on water troughs. If the weather got cold enough that the troughs (or water supply) froze completely, then drivers would be informed not to lower scoops and to stop at stations for water as needed.

I don't imagine that the troughs necessarily had great stresses imposed on them, as they would be open at each end, with water retained by the gentle upward curve of the track bed. Finding the ideal terrain and also a good supply of water was the key issue with siting the troughs. The first ever troughs, at Mochdre, were moved up the line to Aber because the water supply at Mochdre was unreliable.
 

Taunton

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A long time ago, but my childhood recollections of the troughs outside Taunton, at Creech, was that the base was very gradually sloped upwards at each end, eventually level with the top of the sides, to retain the water, rather than the whole formation rising. The ends were notably dry. If you were on the relief lines towards Bristol there was a good view across the troughs of the other three tracks. The joints between sections, about as long as a rail, were quite prominent; I presume the joints were lapped to suit the direction of travel, and thus not usable if running Wrong Line.

I'm also completely guessing that they were about 2 feet wide, water 12" deep, and about 3/4 mile long. That seems to calculate to 50,000 gallons, or about 10 times what a typical express loco tender would hold.

In icing conditions I just recall that the ganger actually worked in the pumphouse, and released water into the trough shortly before an express needing water was expected. In passing, I never heard of any tender having the water frozen inside in winter conditions; I wonder why.

I presume, like the mailbag pickup point on the other side of Taunton, that they must have had some form of marker lights for use at night, although I've never seen any documented. Likewise, were there any indicators displayed on signalboxes etc that troughs ahead were out of use.
 
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70014IronDuke

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....
I presume, like the mailbag pickup point on the other side of Taunton, that they must have had some form of marker lights for use at night, although I've never seen any documented.

Didn't they have big boards, white, with a big W on them to mark the start and finish? Not sure, but I don't think they were illuminated.
BICBW.
 

Calthrop

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Never given this issue much thought, but yet another complexity in the running of a steam railway with seemingly lots of potential for delays and damage!

If I have things rightly: considerations such as the above, meant that water troughs were overall not common on the world's railways. As Bevan Price mentions, they existed on US railroads; but on this side of the Atlantic, my understanding is that they were generally regarded as "a British thing". Few European Continental countries used water troughs at all, and they were not widespread in those that did use them. They were reckoned in the main an unnecessary complication, whose potential downside outweighed its upside.
 

Taunton

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If I have things rightly: considerations such as the above, meant that water troughs were overall not common on the world's railways. As Bevan Price mentions, they existed on US railroads; but on this side of the Atlantic, my understanding is that they were generally regarded as "a British thing". Few European Continental countries used water troughs at all, and they were not widespread in those that did use them. They were reckoned in the main an unnecessary complication, whose potential downside outweighed its upside.
Only a few US roads had them - New York Central was the principal one. The NYC also had mid-route coaling plants, but these were at stations rather than picked up on the move! In the US it was long the standard that 100 miles = one day's pay for crews, and points for crew changes were placed accordingly. There were few runs like Kings Cross to Edinburgh nonstop.
 

RichmondCommu

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Apologies for going off topic here but its perhaps worth remembering that the troughs at Garsdale were the highest in Britain and that the water tank that supplied them was steam heated. I've read accounts of gangers having to smash the ice when the troughs froze. The reservoir that supplied the troughs still exists and can easily be found by those who have a sense of adventure!
 

krus_aragon

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I've read (but I forget where) that gangers would be tasked with breaking surface ice on water troughs.

I've remembered: it was on the Railway Codes website. The page also lists several track pan locations.

I've also found this PDF-based collection of articles on the use of water scoops (from a mainly North American perspective): http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/Track_Pans.pdf. It also back's up [m=Taunton's]21464[/m] recollection that the pan ends were sloped: they were gradually sloped to push up any scoops that the fireman had forgotten to lift in time.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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The French apparently did - see the opening shots of the 1937 film "La Bete Humaine" where the Pacific enroute to Le Havre gets a top up...

Even the GER had a set - Haughley Junction approaching Ipswich for the fast Norfolk Coast services.
 

30907

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The French apparently did - see the opening shots of the 1937 film "La Bete Humaine" where the Pacific enroute to Le Havre gets a top up...

Even the GER had a set - Haughley Junction approaching Ipswich for the fast Norfolk Coast services.

And Ipswich, in the tunnel IIRC.
 

Calthrop

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The French apparently did - see the opening shots of the 1937 film "La Bete Humaine" where the Pacific enroute to Le Havre gets a top up...

If I'm right, it was essentially France's Ouest / Etat system (as with the Paris -- Le Havre route) which went in for troughs: most other French railways tended to the view of "damfool Brits, let them get on with their nonsense".
 

Darren R

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The only heated water troughs I've read about were those just south of Garsdale/Hawes Junction station on the Settle and Carlisle line.

The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway had ten sets of water troughs, six of which were heated in cold weather.
 

70014IronDuke

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If I have things rightly: considerations such as the above, meant that water troughs were overall not common on the world's railways. As Bevan Price mentions, they existed on US railroads; but on this side of the Atlantic, my understanding is that they were generally regarded as "a British thing". Few European Continental countries used water troughs at all, and they were not widespread in those that did use them. They were reckoned in the main an unnecessary complication, whose potential downside outweighed its upside.

Do you know this, or is it just summising? (Not that that makes it incorrect.)

This has certainly got me thinking that indeed, the lack of troughs on the continent is a strange one. I never noticed troughs in Germany, France or anywhere else on the continent. Granted, my forrays only started in the 70s, when steam had largely been relegated to secondary routes, but the troughs would normally last a year or two after steam workings had ceased.

And some lines, eg Rheine to Emden, in W Germany, were still largely steam up to about 1974, IIRC. It had quite an intensive service, with pacifics doing up to about 120 or 130 kmph (I'm guessing) - it was flat, and could surely have done with troughs - but having said that, I can't remember trains stopping for long periods to take water.

France, in particular, could have used troughs with good effect. After all, the population density is, and I assume was, about 1/3 that of the UK. You have much larger distances between cities and towns, meaning non-stop runs become that much more important/relevant - but, from memory, troughs were not a feature at all. (Obviously there were some, I just missed them.)

Of course, further south, in summer, my guess is that evaporation would have been a problem too. Still, interesting that the continent did not, in general, take them up.

A case of "Ils ne sont inventee ici" :cry: ?
 

a_c_skinner

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All of this is much more interesting than my original speculation, alas unanswered.

Did the railways have dead level sites when laid out, before troughs, or was there a lot of work to make dead level sections as troughs were needed? I suspect the latter, and that most was achieved by tinkering with ballast and little more.

Andrew
 

John Webb

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All of this is much more interesting than my original speculation, alas unanswered.

Did the railways have dead level sites when laid out, before troughs, or was there a lot of work to make dead level sections as troughs were needed? I suspect the latter, and that most was achieved by tinkering with ballast and little more.

Andrew
Railways always tried to have level sections of track unless compelled otherwise by the lie of the land, since gradients mean more work by the loco and therefore greater running costs. Early lines were probably not specifically designed for troughs, as these were developed by Ramsbottom of the LNWR only in 1860. After that, further lines probably were designed by the civil engineer to include level stretches at appropriate intervals so that troughs could be installed with minimum effort.

Garsdale troughs, mentioned in other posts, are on one of the very few sections of level track that exist between Settle Junction and Appleby; and of course are on the 'summit' section so that locos which have come up the 'long drag' north or southwards can top up. So the civil engineer almost certainly deliberately ensured this level section of track was 'designed in' to suit the needs of the operating department.
 

Calthrop

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Few European Continental countries used water troughs at all, and they were not widespread in those that did use them. They were reckoned in the main an unnecessary complication, whose potential downside outweighed its upside.

Do you know this, or is it just summising? (Not that that makes it incorrect.)
I recall a statement by the presumably knowledgeable staff of the Railway Magazine, in a question-and-answer exchange in that periodical some time in the 1950s: that there had only ever been a little incidence of water troughs on the European Continent -- one of the few exceptions being on France's Ouest-Etat system. Continental railways' reasons for on the whole rejecting water troughs, are indeed surmise on my part -- prompted by neilmc's thought that the device can be seen as "another thing potentially to go wrong". One would imagine that Western Europe's bigger and more highly-developed nations would at least have considered adopting the idea; but, one guesses, decided in the end, "more trouble than worth" -- plus, as you suggest, maybe an element of "sour grapes" vis-a-vis the perfidious Brits.
This has certainly got me thinking that indeed, the lack of troughs on the continent is a strange one. I never noticed troughs in Germany, France or anywhere else on the continent. Granted, my forrays only started in the 70s, when steam had largely been relegated to secondary routes, but the troughs would normally last a year or two after steam workings had ceased.

And some lines, eg Rheine to Emden, in W Germany, were still largely steam up to about 1974, IIRC. It had quite an intensive service, with pacifics doing up to about 120 or 130 kmph (I'm guessing) - it was flat, and could surely have done with troughs - but having said that, I can't remember trains stopping for long periods to take water.
One muses -- celebrated German efficiency possibly tackling the issue in another way? -- given the motivation, one would imagine that water-column use / loco changing, could be made pretty snappy.
France, in particular, could have used troughs with good effect. After all, the population density is, and I assume was, about 1/3 that of the UK. You have much larger distances between cities and towns, meaning non-stop runs become that much more important/relevant - but, from memory, troughs were not a feature at all. (Obviously there were some, I just missed them.)

Of course, further south, in summer, my guess is that evaporation would have been a problem too. Still, interesting that the continent did not, in general, take them up.

A case of "Ils ne sont inventee ici" :cry: ?

Could it simply be that Continental countries' railways were back then -- for whatever reason -- just not quite as speed-crazy as ours: a bit readier to have an "it takes as long as it takes" approach?
 

Ploughman

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If anyone has access to a copy of "Behind the scenes - Traffic" Vol 4
DVD by Fastline / Telerail 5-019399-104652

This has a feature clip of the renewal of Newby Wiske watertroughs near Northallerton.
 

Taunton

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Did the railways have dead level sites when laid out, before troughs, or was there a lot of work to make dead level sections as troughs were needed? I suspect the latter, and that most was achieved by tinkering with ballast and little more.
The GW troughs, and certainly the ones at Creech outside Taunton, seem to have been commonly where the railway paralleled a river/canal (as there), or coastline, where the line will have been naturally level. There are plenty of other level sections, when the lines were first laid out engineers seem to have found it easier to have level sections interposed with sections of a standard gradient, rather than extremely gradual inclines of 1 in 1000 or less, which were probably beyond the surveying instruments ("just get the bubble in the middle") or manual labour of the time.

Nowadays gradients are commonly expressed as "1 in x", whereas the Victorian engineers would more typically refer to "x feet per mile", so you get down to say 10 feet per mile (1 in 528) and then it's more straightforward to design and lay out "level". The GC main line is notable for its long stretches of 1 in 176, which is not some arbitrary grade but just 30 feet per mile.
 
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AndrewE

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Didn't they have big boards, white, with a big W on them to mark the start and finish? Not sure, but I don't think they were illuminated.
BICBW.

No-one else has picked this up so I will...
I think a "W" board means/meant [sound] Whistle (also I have seen "SW" as well), I seem to remember that a horizontal zigzag on a white background meant Watertroughs. Don't know how long ago this was, I may even have seen it on an old cigarette card!
A
 
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