16:30 London Euston to Glasgow express - gone from May 2016

[All Line Rover]

It would appear that the 16:30 London to Glasgow express is no longer 'express' from the May 2016 timetable change, with stops at Warrington, Wigan, Lancaster, Penrith and Carlisle reinstated. Evidently Virgin doesn't consider passenger demand to be high enough for it to be worth retaining.

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y82696/2016-06-08

 

[Starmill]

If true - very disappointing. I'd be surprised, as Virgin are reporting elsewhere that there is higher than ever demand to and from Glasgow.

 

[me123]

Hmm... that's surprising. It was their headline service.

I suppose it doesn't necessarily relate to declining demand to Glasgow, rather it's potentially an increasing demand to the intermediate stations served. The retiming probably won't put people off too much, but the prospect of one-stop run to Scotland must have been attractive to many people.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Have they changed any of the others into a one stop service instead?

 

[All Line Rover]

It will certainly relieve pressure on the 16:33 Euston to Blackpool, which is a 5 car Voyager that is standing room only departing Euston and which, despite calling at Rugby, Stafford and Crewe, has most passengers staying on to Warrington and further north (there is no other departure to Warrington and Wigan between 15:30 and 16:57), which is certainly not ideal, but I believe the lesser of two evils would have been to double the 16:33 to 10 cars.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have they changed any of the others into a one stop service instead?

Not from what I can see, no.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not from what I can see, no.

What about southbound...? It's not like Virgin to lose out on a headline fast run if they can possibly avoid doing so it is it?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I alway used to use the one's that were last call Preston, much more civilised, because everyone who wanted intermediates got off there and just either crossed over to the other platform or waited a short while for the following service.

Hardly use the trains nowadays, too unreliable for longer distance day trips.

 

[Starmill]

What about southbound...? It's not like Virgin to lose out on a headline fast run if they can possibly avoid doing so it is it?

Their publicity in the railway press has been about faster trains too, not removing the fastest train from London to Scotland.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Only for journeys between London Euston - Birmingham/Manchester it seems, Liverpool has only seen a very marginal improvement in journey times.

Glasgow isn't brilliant by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Starmill]

Only for journeys between London Euston - Birmingham/Manchester it seems, Liverpool has only seen a very marginal improvement in journey times.

Glasgow isn't brilliant by any stretch of the imagination.

True but there have been a series of Modern Railways articles discussing things with managers from VT and they have been focussing on Scotland. Most recently they were talking about seat occupancy and the problems with times of the week where an 11-car Pendolino wasn't sufficient for the route. Others they have been emphasising the need to bring times down to 4 hours. I'll be surprised if this goes ahead.

As for the Blackpool North train I think that is rather silly running a single Voyager at that time just for the sake of Preston to Blackpool.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'd love to see the Euston - Glasgow journey time become 4hrs as standard, it opens up a lot more possibilities.

 

[30907]

It will certainly relieve pressure on the 16:33 Euston to Blackpool, which is a 5 car Voyager that is standing room only departing Euston and which, despite calling at Rugby, Stafford and Crewe, has most passengers staying on to Warrington and further north (there is no other departure to Warrington and Wigan between 15:30 and 16:57), which is certainly not ideal, but I believe the lesser of two evils would have been to double the 16:33 to 10 cars.

Of course it would, but which service would you rob?

Especially when in my limited experience the 1630 is a relatively quiet train.

 

[berneyarms]

True but there have been a series of Modern Railways articles discussing things with managers from VT and they have been focussing on Scotland. Most recently they were talking about seat occupancy and the problems with times of the week where an 11-car Pendolino wasn't sufficient for the route. Others they have been emphasising the need to bring times down to 4 hours. I'll be surprised if this goes ahead.

As for the Blackpool North train I think that is rather silly running a single Voyager at that time just for the sake of Preston to Blackpool.

Prior to the 16:33 being extended to Blackpool North in December 2014, what operated the 16:33 Euston-Preston? A Pendolino or Voyager?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their publicity in the railway press has been about faster trains too, not removing the fastest train from London to Scotland.

In my view a daily, consistent, hourly Taktfahrplan is much more use than a single crack express at a time that might not be suitable and that by existing makes a mess of said consistent timetable.

So well done to Virgin from me.

FWIW, there would be huge connectional benefits of adding a Crewe stop to these trains as well, even though that would be a further slowdown. Most people on them are not making the full through journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course it would, but which service would you rob?

Especially when in my limited experience the 1630 is a relatively quiet train.

If 5 cars are sufficient, what's the problem with running 5 cars?

If they aren't, then yes, it needs extending, but if you've got no stock...

 

[All Line Rover]

Prior to the 16:33 being extended to Blackpool North in December 2014, what operated the 16:33 Euston-Preston? A Pendolino or Voyager?

It's always been a single Voyager and it's always been overcrowded.

 

[Starmill]

In my view a daily, consistent, hourly Taktfahrplan is much more use than a single crack express at a time that might not be suitable and that by existing makes a mess of said consistent timetable.

So well done to Virgin from me.

Well it might be more useful but that isn't what you've got. Where is the additional train that is able to run because of this planning change? We now have a 1630 and a 1633 from London to Warrington, Wigan and Preston. That doesn't sound like taktfahrplan to me, that sounds like knee-jerk waste of resources.

FWIW, there would be huge connectional benefits of adding a Crewe stop to these trains as well, even though that would be a further slowdown. Most people on them are not making the full through journey.

Are you sure? Virgin seem to place a lot of emphasis on London <> Glasgow custom. I think you might be underestimating it. And I'm not sure why given that Crewe to Glasgow and Edinburgh is already 1tph in the normal timetable.

 

[gordonthemoron]

it's a bit of a pig that there is only one train an hour between Crewe and Warrington

 

[berneyarms]

It's always been a single Voyager and it's always been overcrowded.

Which makes the comment below somewhat daft - as it's not a Voyager simply to serve Blackpool - that's the only set available to operate it, and extending it to Blackpool makes additional use of the train set.

As for the Blackpool North train I think that is rather silly running a single Voyager at that time just for the sake of Preston to Blackpool.

 

[causton]

it's a bit of a pig that there is only one train an hour between Crewe and Warrington

Indeed, makes it very difficult to get from the north of that gap to the south - for example, if I wanted to go as far north as I could on LM then change for a TPE/VT to go north of there!

 

[Starmill]

Which makes the comment below somewhat daft - as it's not a Voyager simply to serve Blackpool - that's the only set available to operate it, and extending it to Blackpool makes additional use of the train set.

Or, if you actually think about it, it means that the Pendolino can't operate the Blackpool service and the Voyager the Glasgow.

The point is that running the need to run the Blackpool is affecting flexibility here and for what gain? Also, it wasn't very sensible to extend an existing very full service through to Blackpool because:
a) it's likely to make it even busier and
b) it gives a very poor impression to the occasional passengers that the Blackpool service is attempting to woo.

it's a bit of a pig that there is only one train an hour between Crewe and Warrington

This is true but the only real solution is the second train per hour to Liverpool or Preston.

 

[Camden]

If a fast express to Glasgow isn't viable, then what does that say for the oft heard cry that this is a potent market for HS2 enhanced services??

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a fast express to Glasgow isn't viable, then what does that say for the oft heard cry that this is a potent market for HS2 enhanced services??

Not a lot, really. If an HS2 service is faster than HEx plus faff time plus flight plus airlink bus, then it will gain passengers. If it's slower, it won't.

4 hours or 4h15 or 4h30 is neither here nor there - below 3 hours or thereabouts is the sweet spot (plus any time for Eurostar style security faff which will no doubt mar HS2).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm glad to see Virgin finally change it into a more sensible service, it used to seriously annoy me that the 1630 didn't stop at Carlisle (making me wait till the 1657, which also stopped in the Trent Valley) to save, what, 3 minutes?

 

[Starmill]

I'm glad to see Virgin finally change it into a more sensible service, it used to seriously annoy me that the 1630 didn't stop at Carlisle (making me wait till the 1657, which also stopped in the Trent Valley) to save, what, 3 minutes?

I have also wondered that in the past. But then it ought to be able to do Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow Central...

 

[dk1]

Could the 16:33 not now omit Warrington & Wigan to save it around 5 minutes or so, assuming there is a clear path ahead Crewe-Preston?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just noticed there's 1S83 TPx ex-Manchester Airport due to depart Wigan 18:43 so that scuppers that idea.

 

[Philip Elliott]

It's always been a single Voyager and it's always been overcrowded.

From December 2008 to December 2012 it was a Pendo, forming the 19.58 back to Euston.

 

[Taunton]

In my view a daily, consistent, hourly Taktfahrplan is much more use than a single crack express at a time that might not be suitable and that by existing makes a mess of said consistent timetable.

This is true when you can just turn up when convenient and take the next service. However, TOCs seem determined to price those who find they travel this way off the railway, to avoid paying ludicrously high fares, four or more times as much, it's generally necessary now to go for advance booking, and just one service. In which case other trains in a daily repeating timetable are useless.

Notably, when the Swiss introduced their hourly repeating pattern across the country, you just turned up, bought a ticket, and went. Now that is much more use. Traffic jam on the way to the station, kids throw up just as you are leaving home, business meeting has an unpredictable end, etc, not an issue.

 

[Mag_seven]

In my view a daily, consistent, hourly Taktfahrplan is much more use than a single crack express at a time that might not be suitable and that by existing makes a mess of said consistent timetable.

While they are at it can they not replace the useless 05.30 departure from Euston with an 06.30 service with a similar calling pattern and journey time to a "daytime" service?

 

[dk1]

While they are at it can they not replace the useless 05.30 departure from Euston with an 06.30 service with a similar calling pattern and journey time to a "daytime" service?

I presumed that was something to do with providing commuter needs around the North West.

 

[30907]

From December 2008 to December 2012 it was a Pendo, forming the 19.58 back to Euston.

Said unit now being required for the hourly Glasgow service, and a Voyager being all that could be squeezed out of the diagrams.

But the hourly Glasgow has obviously paid off, whereas the 1630 was really only to give VT a headline time after the failure of the original upgrade.