English bus usage continues to fall (in most places)

[Tom B]

There are all sorts of issues if you expect people to touch in and out, what about when the reader breaks, or the bus breaks down, or the system has to be reset mid ride... surely they either need to a) simplify fare structures or b) have the CPC as a payment for a fare on a ticket machine in lieu of cash, as suggested.

 

[radamfi]

There are all sorts of issues if you expect people to touch in and out, what about when the reader breaks, or the bus breaks down, or the system has to be reset mid ride... surely they either need to a) simplify fare structures or b) have the CPC as a payment for a fare on a ticket machine in lieu of cash, as suggested.

Touch in and out exists on almost all local and regional buses in the Netherlands, as well as trams, metros and trains and has been working for many years now. However, cash is also accepted. It just costs a lot more (usually).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isnt that because of the law?

Not accepting each other's is probably because of (ludicrous) competition law. I see no barrier in law to each operator accepting their own.

 

[northwichcat]

Also, taxes in the US may be lower, but you'd have to pay for your own health insurance.

The Conservatives claim that Corbyn is pushing for UK level public services with US taxation levels, so the claim Hophead made in response to another poster is one that's been all over the media.

Yes in the UK the only health services which I think you have to pay for relate to opticians, dentists and prescriptions. You're not going to be admitted to hospital after an accident and face a hefty bill if you don't have health insurance.

But as this thread relates to buses, one think we lack in this country which most EU cities seem to have is intergrated ticketing. In Europe it's common for a single ticket to allow you to catch a train, then a bus, then the Metro provided you complete your journey within the required time and don't go outside the area of validity.

 

[edwin_m]

Touch in and out exists on almost all local and regional buses in the Netherlands, as well as trams, metros and trains and has been working for many years now. However, cash is also accepted. It just costs a lot more (usually).

I presume the examples above use a dedicated transit card that can be used to store journey history. I don't believe this is possible with a contactless card - if touching on and off the card details must be read on both occasions and transmitted to some central system which matches up the origins and destinations and hopefully debits the correct fare. This ought to be fairly easy at fixed barriers or validators but more tricky on board a vehicle where if there is no radio signal the data would have to be stored and transmitted later.

 

[radamfi]

I presume the examples above use a dedicated transit card that can be used to store journey history. I don't believe this is possible with a contactless card - if touching on and off the card details must be read on both occasions and transmitted to some central system which matches up the origins and destinations and hopefully debits the correct fare. This ought to be fairly easy at fixed barriers or validators but more tricky on board a vehicle where if there is no radio signal the data would have to be stored and transmitted later.

When you touch in on London buses, that information is transmitted by mobile radio signal so if you look at your online account you can see the time of your touch in, usually within minutes.

(Maybe you already know this, so perhaps you were extrapolating that to other locations. Apologies if that's the case.)

The Netherlands has its "NS Business Card" which is actually valid on all kinds of public transport (not just train) as well as cycle hire, car hire, taxis and parking. You do not need to add credit to that card as you get a monthly bill with all your transactions. This means that real time fare calculation is not required. This also applies to train season ticket holders who can use the card on other public transport and train lines not covered by the season ticket.

 

[Oscar]

On a Coastliner bus in York a few years ago:
Driver: that's £9.60.
Hands over £10 note.
Driver: have you got anything smaller?

But as this thread relates to buses, one think we lack in this country which most EU cities seem to have is intergrated ticketing. In Europe it's common for a single ticket to allow you to catch a train, then a bus, then the Metro provided you complete your journey within the required time and don't go outside the area of validity.

There should be a greater political consensus for this as it's compatible with diverse aims/value systems/ideologies. Regulating and contracting out bus services provides competition in a natural monopoly, serves social needs and gives people more freedom by providing a usable service for many more journeys and is environmentally beneficial if the buses are well used (also depends on the technology which powers the bus of course). I agree with most of the views on this thread.

The point about travel decreasing generally is interesting. Intercity rail and air travel have seen big increases - potentially partly due to the growth and affluence of cities and increased specialisation of people's contacts and leisure activities. Also perhaps due to yield management encouraging people to make more journeys.

 

[northwichcat]

The point about travel decreasing generally is interesting. Intercity rail and air travel have seen big increases - potentially partly due to the growth and affluence of cities and increased specialisation of people's contacts and leisure activities. Also perhaps due to yield management encouraging people to make more journeys.

Loadings on rail and air services were going up, so where possible services have been or are being enhanced. However, with a number of bus services receiving funding directly from council budgets and councils having their budgets cut, the councils have withdrawn funding in a lot of cases which on some routes has seen a service withdrawal or truncation or on other routes has seen a cutback e.g. a bus gets taken off a commercial route to run a school/college contract mid-afternoon when previously it wouldn't have been. Then with the big increase in fares and less services it makes the bus a less attractive option.

 

[Busaholic]

Why are contactless cards not a long term solution?

Because they drive a coach and horses through the whole point of the added security of chip and pin, which might not be a perfect system (what is?) but has driven down 'cardholder present' card fraud exponentially.Thieves can and do go on enthusiastic spending sprees, often of fags and booze, with acquired cards, sometimes for hours after a theft/loss has been reported. The Poor Joe with a credit card who has a balance that doesn't get repaid in full every month ends up paying for all this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because they drive a coach and horses through the whole point of the added security of chip and pin, which might not be a perfect system (what is?) but has driven down 'cardholder present' card fraud exponentially.Thieves can and do go on enthusiastic spending sprees, often of fags and booze, with acquired cards, sometimes for hours after a theft/loss has been reported. The Poor Joe with a credit card who has a balance that doesn't get repaid in full every month ends up paying for all this.

Presumably, though, the card companies have decided, despite this risk, that the large number of additional transactions it will allow will bring in enough extra income that it is worth their while.

So I'm still not clear why (while you do highlight valid concerns) the card companies would withdraw it.

 

[radamfi]

Because they drive a coach and horses through the whole point of the added security of chip and pin, which might not be a perfect system (what is?) but has driven down 'cardholder present' card fraud exponentially.Thieves can and do go on enthusiastic spending sprees, often of fags and booze, with acquired cards, sometimes for hours after a theft/loss has been reported. The Poor Joe with a credit card who has a balance that doesn't get repaid in full every month ends up paying for all this.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-card-is-too-easy-says-which

Instances of fraud on contactless cards are in fact extremely rare, with losses of less than a penny for every £100 spent on contactless – far lower even than overall card fraud.

First of all, someone has to physically steal the card. Secondly, the card can only be used a certain number of times until the PIN is needed. Thirdly, the amount per transaction is limited to £30.

Card issuers wouldn't be promoting them if card fraud was too severe, as they have to refund customers. The cost of those refunds would require them to claw back the money through increased interest rates or merchant charges, making them less competitive.

 

[Robertj21a]

Because they drive a coach and horses through the whole point of the added security of chip and pin, which might not be a perfect system (what is?) but has driven down 'cardholder present' card fraud exponentially.Thieves can and do go on enthusiastic spending sprees, often of fags and booze, with acquired cards, sometimes for hours after a theft/loss has been reported. The Poor Joe with a credit card who has a balance that doesn't get repaid in full every month ends up paying for all this.

Total over reaction. The percentage of cards used fraudulently is minute in relation to the total in issue and the maximum transaction for a contactless card is £30. Don't you think that the various banks have all considered the risks and costs ?

 

[AndrewE]

Regulating and contracting out bus services provides competition in a natural monopoly, serves social needs and gives people more freedom by providing a usable service for many more journeys and is environmentally beneficial if the buses are well used (also depends on the technology which powers the bus of course). I agree with most of the views on this thread.

That sounds like a load of doctrinaire political cr*p to me. The only place bus useage is rising in the UK is London, where of course the b*ll*cks above is not being forced on the miserable (potential) users. Everywhere else it is a disaster, slightly minimised (for the bus companies) by the money transferred to them to pay for "free" journeys made on OAP bus passes.

There is no doubt that buses could be part of an excellent public transport network, integrated with other modes etc etc, but unfortunately here in the UK it is even illegal for companies to co-ordinate timetables, let alone offer inter-usable tickets.

If we spent a small fraction of what disappears in trying to "regulate" the free market and just got on with running bus services (or trains, for that matter) rather than enriching shareholders (which is the only legal obligation of the directors, don't forget) we would save a lot of money and all be better off and healthier too. People walking to and from public transport has major public health benefits as well as reducing congestion and pollution. Could you imagine cycle racks at rural bus stops here like you see in the Netherlands?

 

[radamfi]

Do you still support the deregulated bus industry on principle? I used to do that, but now I only really use buses in London now. I used to go on a lot of bus trips in Britain but I now feel that supporting such poor and expensive services would be wrong, even though I can afford it. In particular, I generally "boycott" First and Arriva. I now prefer to use that money to go on bus trips abroad.

 

[AndrewE]

Do you still support the deregulated bus industry on principle? I used to do that, but now I only really use buses in London now. I used to go on a lot of bus trips in Britain but I now feel that supporting such poor and expensive services would be wrong, even though I can afford it. In particular, I generally "boycott" First and Arriva. I now prefer to use that money to go on bus trips abroad.

Was that a question for Oscar (Post 97?)

 

[radamfi]

Could you imagine cycle racks at rural bus stops here like you see in the Netherlands?

The British bus industry sees cycling as competition. Which actually would be true if cycling got to Dutch levels of usage. Whilst good cycling would replace car trips, which is the primary reason for providing cycle infrastructure, it would replace more bus trips. Cycling is so dominant in the Netherlands that bus/tram/metro only has about 2% mode share nationwide compared to about 7% for bus in the UK. What is most important is the total mode share of modes other than the car.

The Netherlands shows that even though bus use is almost negligible outside the major cities, because cycling has replaced most bus trips, you can still have world class service with quality vehicles, excellent bus priority and proper evening and Sunday services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was that a question for Oscar (Post 97?)

It was a question for anyone who wants to answer!

 

[AndrewE]

The British bus industry sees cycling as competition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In that case they are blind or maybe just almost as badly blinkered... I normally cycle, if the weather was filthy I would get a bus - if there was one that suited my journey and it didn't cost nearly £2 for just over a mile. As it is now, it if it is too dangerous to cycle I just push it home.

If I was completely wedded to the car the bus would never be considered...

 

[jon0844]

On a Coastliner bus in York a few years ago:
Driver: that's £9.60.
Hands over £10 note.
Driver: have you got anything smaller?

I'd have said I had a fiver, but then I'd be £4.60 short!

 

[edwin_m]

When you touch in on London buses, that information is transmitted by mobile radio signal so if you look at your online account you can see the time of your touch in, usually within minutes.

(Maybe you already know this, so perhaps you were extrapolating that to other locations. Apologies if that's the case.)

I didn't know if it was done immediately or downloaded at some point during the day. Presumably if there is no radio coverage it is buffered and transmitted when possible to do so. I guess the same could be used elsewhere as long as there was some sort of coverage along the route.

 

[Oscar]

That sounds like a load of doctrinaire political cr*p to me. The only place bus useage is rising in the UK is London, where of course the b*ll*cks above is not being forced on the miserable (potential) users. Everywhere else it is a disaster, slightly minimised (for the bus companies) by the money transferred to them to pay for "free" journeys made on OAP bus passes.

There is no doubt that buses could be part of an excellent public transport network, integrated with other modes etc etc, but unfortunately here in the UK it is even illegal for companies to co-ordinate timetables, let alone offer inter-usable tickets.

If we spent a small fraction of what disappears in trying to "regulate" the free market and just got on with running bus services (or trains, for that matter) rather than enriching shareholders (which is the only legal obligation of the directors, don't forget) we would save a lot of money and all be better off and healthier too. People walking to and from public transport has major public health benefits as well as reducing congestion and pollution. Could you imagine cycle racks at rural bus stops here like you see in the Netherlands?

I largely agree, that's why I think that regulating and contracting out all bus services (i.e. timetables are planned and fares centrally), more like what happens in London or in Germany, would be a good idea.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Thieves can and do go on enthusiastic spending sprees, often of fags and booze, with acquired cards, sometimes for hours after a theft/loss has been reported.

I'd agree that this is an issue, as is accidental activation of a contactless card, but with the transaction limit being £30 and the number of contactless uses being limited it shouldn't be a huge issue.

Here Trent Barton and Stagecoach will not even accept each others paper day tickets and even worse will not accept their own. Trent Zigzag and Stagecoach Day Explorer are both not valid on any Pronto bus.

There is nothing in any competition law that says they can't accept each other's tickets, or work together for a new ticket. Stagecoach Cumberland and Arriva Northumberland accept each other's tickets on the 85/685 Newcastle-Hexham-Carlisle service, and there's the NE SmartZone between Stagecoach, Arriva and Go: https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and-offers/north-east/smartzone

As it always is, a lot of this depends on whether we wish to spend money on a world class transport network.

Agreed. And sadly, yet again, we have a government who sees road spending as "investment" and public transport spending as "subsidy".

And don't even get me started on the gormless way that bus lanes are being ripped out because they're "empty", even though the one bus every five minutes that uses it has more people on it than in all the cars sat in the queue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And don't even get me started on the gormless way that bus lanes are being ripped out because they're "empty", even though the one bus every five minutes that uses it has more people on it than in all the cars sat in the queue.

Far too many bus lanes are a stick to hit motorists with rather than a carrot to attract them onto buses.

The UK approach is largely to have a bus lane that runs the length of a road and then stops about 3-4 bus lengths before the junction. But it is the junction that is the main problem.

The German and Dutch approach is to have a short bus lane up to the junction but also for the bus, as it travels, to activate an induction loop to allow the signals to change in its favour (and against road traffic) so the bus never has to stop when it doesn't want to. This is helped by their laws allowing tram signals ( - for stop, | for go and / and \ for go turning right and left respectively) to be used for buses - I think such a law change is needed in the UK as well as it obviates the need for traffic islands in such layouts.

This latter, more targeted approach is vastly superior, and would allow the removal of many existing bus lanes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Far too many bus lanes are a stick to hit motorists with rather than a carrot to attract them onto buses.

The UK approach is largely to have a bus lane that runs the length of a road and then stops about 3-4 bus lengths before the junction. But it is the junction that is the main problem.

The German and Dutch approach is to have a short bus lane up to the junction but also for the bus, as it travels, to activate an induction loop to allow the signals to change in its favour (and against road traffic) so the bus never has to stop when it doesn't want to. This is helped by their laws allowing tram signals ( - for stop, | for go and / and \ for go turning right and left respectively) to be used for buses - I think such a law change is needed in the UK as well as it obviates the need for traffic islands in such layouts.

This latter, more targeted approach is vastly superior, and would allow the removal of many existing bus lanes.

I think you're missing the point. The fact that the esteemed mayor of Liverpool is happy to remove bus priority tells you all you need to know of the mindset.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you're missing the point. The fact that the esteemed mayor of Liverpool is happy to remove bus priority tells you all you need to know of the mindset.

Didn't he remove it as an experiment to see which ones were a waste of space?

I don't support the stick; if certain bus lanes provide no tangible benefit to buses they need removing.

 

[me123]

Because they drive a coach and horses through the whole point of the added security of chip and pin, which might not be a perfect system (what is?) but has driven down 'cardholder present' card fraud exponentially.Thieves can and do go on enthusiastic spending sprees, often of fags and booze, with acquired cards, sometimes for hours after a theft/loss has been reported. The Poor Joe with a credit card who has a balance that doesn't get repaid in full every month ends up paying for all this.

This isn't entirely true.

Your bank is likely to stop any fraud if they do go on a "spending spree" - their software is often good at detecting unusual activity (it stopped me only last week when I used a (genuine) contactless payment in Cardiff, which it deemed unusual). A thief cannot go on an enthusiastic spending spree above the £30 spending limit per shop, which somewhat limits their aspirations to a few packets of cigarettes. As has been said, the reality is that fraud is considerably lower with contactless cards; even though it's easier to access the funds, the opportunities for actually spending them are considerably more limited.

Provided you report your card stolen as soon as you realise, you won't be liable for any fraudulent charges. This is the same as with Chip&Pin.

Banks are also working on something that is akin to "secure contactless". There's a patent pending for a contactless card that requires your fingerprint, for example.

Potential future security enhancements aside, contactless is widely accepted as a payment method in low value transactions, and would be used on buses. In fact, bus fares are a perfect fit for contactless payment cards. For me, it would certainly encourage me to use the bus by removing one of my big barriers - namely I often don't have the "exact change" to make a £1.85 fare!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Faffing about with change has caused me to use a private hire car before, as a local firm take card payments via their app. Arriva do for the buses as well, but only on day tickets or longer, and I don't always want more than one journey. To be fair, just adding single (or better one hour) tickets to the app would also solve this for me and many others.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I largely agree, that's why I think that regulating and contracting out all bus services (i.e. timetables are planned and fares centrally), more like what happens in London or in Germany, would be a good idea.

The reason why London has been successful is also intrinsically linked to the vast public subsidy that has lavished upon London's buses. Hey, they can even afford to have a bespoke bus.... The reality is that if a quarter of the money that had been spent on London had been invested in the provinces, our bus services would be much better.

That said, I've mentioned the largesse of the funding when RBC cash was doled out. As it was mentioned earlier by someone else, I'll use Somerset as an example. Somerset Council got a lot of money (as it's a rural county) and went mad with spending. One example cited was the 184 Bath to Frome that was two hourly (though it formed part of the busy Bath to Radstock corridor, the southern half travels through very sparse, affluent territory). SCC decided that it would support additional journeys (in between commercial runs) to create an hourly headway. It also then ran a two hourly Sunday service. Madness!

There were some examples of good things to create sustainable networks - hence why there are Sunday services in the Taunton area (might they have happened anyway given how Sunday trading has gone?) but most additional services have now bitten the dust. Imagine what that money could've done had it been done in line with Kickstart or other measures to create a sustainable, long term network.

In terms of the 184, the Sunday service went very quickly, the additional journeys lasted until 2014 when SCC pulled them with budget cuts (knowing there was a two hourly commercial service). However, First realised that the southern part was a loss maker and so axed the service last year and redeployed those resources so now it's a tendered service just 5 days a week, operated by an indie.

 

[90019]

The only place bus useage is rising in the UK is London

False.

Bus usage has been rising steadily in Edinburgh for years. The last figures published for Lothian Buses showed an increase of 3 million journeys from 115.4m in 2013 to 118.4m in 2014.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Lothian just seem to get better and better. But Edinburgh (a city I really like) is not typical of the UK as a whole - it has a high density population more typical of a European city - which will contribute towards public transport's success.

 

[radamfi]

And Lothian just seem to get better and better. But Edinburgh (a city I really like) is not typical of the UK as a whole - it has a high density population more typical of a European city - which will contribute towards public transport's success.

I always understood that British towns and cities were particularly low density, like everybody else. It was as an excuse why Britain can't offer good city transport. However, after reading "Transport for Suburbia", I was actually surprised to see that British towns and cities are actually high density compared to many European cities with world class transport and high patronage.

Most of Britain is old and housing is primarily terraced or semi-detached. Britain still has quite a high walking rate, another indication of high density. For most of the time, planning has been highly restricted. The laissez-faire of the Thatcher era was the main exception, but most of Britain was built before and after that time.