CAF rolling stock confirmed for Arriva

[61653 HTAFC]

I've always thought the trains in Ireland made by CAF would be good for Northern. Wonder if the Northern ones will share any similarity to the Irish ones but with 4ft8.5 track guage instead of the 5ft one in Ireland.
(I'm mostly on about the Class 22000, Class 3000 and Class 4000)

If it's a derivative of the 3000/4000, for the most part it'll only be bogies and wheelsets that'd be vastly different (besides compliant engines, obviously) as the NI loading gauge is almost as restrictive as the mainland.

 

[Starmill]

Brilliant news. Multi-billion deal for new trains to be 'Made in Spain'.
That's sure to assist the balance of payments deficit. :roll:

If there's a Balance of Payments deficit you've done your sums wrong - it always = 0!

 

[jopsuk]

If it's a derivative of the 3000/4000, for the most part it'll only be bogies and wheelsets that'd be vastly different (besides compliant engines, obviously) as the NI loading gauge is almost as restrictive as the mainland.

there's a common myth that loading gauge is intrinsicly linked to track gauge (most often invoked when discussing the Great Western). It's quite amazing how little fact there is to back this up- as you say, the NI/Eire network has a loading gauge similar to GB, whilst (as an example) the narrower track gauge "classic" network in Japan has a larger one

 

[northwichcat]

Said in jest the likes of Stadler and CAF have always offered new DMU types despite what some people tried to spin.

I realise that. Some of the people arguing that had changed their argument to 'Northern can't afford them' and 'DfT will change their mind about new DMUs for Northern' opposed to 'it can't be done.'

 

[Haydn1971]

Some of the people arguing that had changed their argument to 'Northern can't afford them' and 'DfT will change their mind about new DMUs for Northern' opposed to 'it can't be done.'

A view I've held from the start of the ramped floor saga on IEP - fitting a diesel unit into a train and getting current emissions gear working has never been impossible - someone in the UK just had to place an order and a manufacturer would deliver the required DMU.

 

[northwichcat]

Tony Miles has said the breakdown of new trains will be 31 x 3-car & 12 x 4-car EMUs and 25 x 2-car & 30 3-car DMUs. (Apparently from an Eversholt Press Release.)

The various announcements hint that the 333s will go on to Leeds-Doncaster and 3 car EMUs which can be doubled up will supplement the 333s on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines and indicate Glossop will get new 4 car EMUs.

So possibly
* 16 x 3 car EMUs to Yorkshire to replace the 321s and 322s
* 15 x 3 car EMUs to Manchester to replace the 323s (except on the Glossop route but allowing for Macclesfield enhancements)
* 3 x 4 car EMUs for Glossop
* 7/8 x 4 car EMUs for Blackpool/Windermere Northern Connect services.
* 1/2 spare maintenance/spare EMUs for North West routes.

 

[47802]

Brilliant news. Multi-billion deal for new trains to be 'Made in Spain'.
That's sure to assist the balance of payments deficit. :roll:

Well I would have preferred a UK based company but according to the 'insiders' Bombardier didn't bid, of course we don't that for sure, I am also not convinced that according to some armchair experts an updated 172 would have been an option either more likely an Aventra DMU.

Either way if Bombardier, Hitachi etc didn't bid I'm sure they have there reasons I'm sure Bombardier will have the main eye on the next Tube Contract at the moment as not only would it secure Derby for quite a while but as TFL's main supplier at the moment you could argue its theirs to loose.

Off course it looks as though Arriva wanted a single supplier for both DMU and EMU had they issued a separate contract for them they would have probably got more bidders for the EMU's but Arriva have probably got a good deal from CAF for both.

Anyway at least we hopefully get some long overdue better rolling stock for Northern.

 

[po8crg]

Tony Miles has said the breakdown of new trains will be 31 x 3-car & 12 x 4-car EMUs and 25 x 2-car & 30 3-car DMUs. (Apparently from an Eversholt Press Release.)

Rail Journal have those same numbers also from Eversholt. http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...supply-trains-for-new-northern-franchise.html

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think Hitachi have concentrated on getting the TPE contract.

 

[The Ham]

Some more information in some of the railway press:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...awarded-arriva-rail-north-train-contract.html

UK: Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF is to supply 281 new vehicles worth £490m for the next Northern franchise, leasing company Eversholt Rail announced on January 22.

The order comprises 31 three-car and 12 four-car electric multiple-units, and 25 two-car and 30 three-car diesel multiple-units. These will be part of CAF’s Civity family, and all are scheduled to enter service by December 2018.

The new rolling stock will enable the fleet of 1980s Class 14x Pacer DMUs to be withdrawn from the Northern franchise, and potentially redeployed to other operators.

The new Northern franchise is scheduled to begin on April 1. Chris Burchell, Managing Director of Arriva’s UK Trains Division, said the rolling stock contract involved a ‘high specification and demanding timetable for delivery’, adding that he hoped that the announcement ‘once again makes clear our determination to deliver on our promises to passengers.’

EMUs previously supplied by CAF are currently operated by Northern Rail and Heathrow Express, while Northern Ireland Railways has a fleet of DMUs and Midland Metro operates CAF trams. CAF also has a contract to supply new coaches for Caledonian Sleeper overnight services.

The Arriva Rail North order ‘is a fantastic opportunity for CAF to consolidate its position as one of the leading manufacturers of trains within the very competitive UK market’, said Antonio Campos, CAF’s International Commercial Director for Western Europe. He said the company would provide ‘high-quality, cost-effective and highly-reliable trains for people throughout Northern England.’

‘These new trains will bring much-needed improvements in comfort and capacity for passengers on this important part of the network, and we look forward to working with our partners to bring them into service’, said Mary Kenny, Chief Executive Officer of Eversholt Rail.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I note they have power sockets, tables AND wi-fi !. No good for down here in London then - where we are to get by without most of those passenger comforts !. Next they will be boasting about how many seats they are getting.

EDIT:- Must say I never realised they had electricity up North .

 

[Greybeard33]

Tony Miles has said the breakdown of new trains will be 31 x 3-car & 12 x 4-car EMUs and 25 x 2-car & 30 3-car DMUs. (Apparently from an Eversholt Press Release.)

The various announcements hint that the 333s will go on to Leeds-Doncaster and 3 car EMUs which can be doubled up will supplement the 333s on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines and indicate Glossop will get new 4 car EMUs.

So possibly
* 16 x 3 car EMUs to Yorkshire to replace the 321s and 322s
* 15 x 3 car EMUs to Manchester to replace the 323s (except on the Glossop route but allowing for Macclesfield enhancements)
* 3 x 4 car EMUs for Glossop
* 7/8 x 4 car EMUs for Blackpool/Windermere Northern Connect services.
* 1/2 spare maintenance/spare EMUs for North West routes.

My guess (assuming that all the EMUs will have 20m carriages) is that it is more likely that all 31 x 3-cars will go to Yorkshire, replacing all the 321s, 322s and 333s and allowing doubling of the busiest services. The NW would then just get the 12 x 4-cars, to be used mainly on the Glossop/Hadfield, Stoke and Airport-Blackpool services (Windermere wiring date is still TBC). Refurbished 319s would replace the 323s on the Crewe line and the DMUs on the Chorley line, for both of which their performance is adequate.

 

[Haydn1971]

Thinking aloud, if these units are going to run mostly as doubled up units, should we expect end gangways ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

My guess (assuming that all the EMUs will have 20m carriages) is that it is more likely that all 31 x 3-cars will go to Yorkshire, replacing all the 321s, 322s and 333s and allowing doubling of the busiest services. The NW would then just get the 12 x 4-cars, to be used mainly on the Glossop/Hadfield, Stoke and Airport-Blackpool services (Windermere wiring date is still TBC). Refurbished 319s would replace the 323s on the Crewe line and the DMUs on the Chorley line, for both of which their performance is adequate.

Where does that leave the 333s - I think its decreed in some contract that they cannot be removed from Leeds/West-Yorkshire. Otherwise makes sense and the 321s+322 could join their class mates elsewhere in the UK. That would get rid of a few non-standard EMUs ion Northern.

Just a rash thought - could the 333s go to Heathrow Connect thus releasing the 360s for C2C ?.

 

[po8crg]

I wonder if these will be able to run in multiple with the 333s?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thinking aloud, if these units are going to run mostly as doubled up units, should we expect end gangways ?

Yes I wondered that. If the Airdale lines are supposed to be running with 2*3-car EMUs it makes sense. As for 2-car DMUs they are bound to get doubled up.

I have not forgotten that the 442s have end gangways.

 

[Haydn1971]

Where does that leave the 333s - I think its decreed in some contract that they cannot be removed from Leeds/West-Yorkshire.

Seem to recall someone posting about these in part going to the Leeds-Doncaster service and in part remain on the Airedale services

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder if these will be able to run in multiple with the 333s?

I wonder if the new DMUs will be able to work with any of 150-158s and if the new EMUs will be able to work with any remaining Northern EMUs. Further more I wonder if the new DMUs will be able to work with the new EMUs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seem to recall someone posting about these in part going to the Leeds-Doncaster service and in part remain on the Airedale services

My thoughts were prompted by Greybeard33s post (#41) guessing that ALL the 3-car CAF EMUs would go to Yorkshire. Its giving me tempting ideas and provides a neat solution (now to find the problem !).

 

[Viscount702]

My guess (assuming that all the EMUs will have 20m carriages) is that it is more likely that all 31 x 3-cars will go to Yorkshire, replacing all the 321s, 322s and 333s and allowing doubling of the busiest services. The NW would then just get the 12 x 4-cars, to be used mainly on the Glossop/Hadfield, Stoke and Airport-Blackpool services (Windermere wiring date is still TBC). Refurbished 319s would replace the 323s on the Crewe line and the DMUs on the Chorley line, for both of which their performance is adequate.

This is what worries me. As is already the case, most of Northern's good stock is used on services to and from Leeds whether or not that is the best use of that stock. To now suggest that Leeds again gets most of the new stock and the north west the older units strikes me again as not the best or fairest use of stock.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is what worries me. As is already the case, most of Northern's good stock is used on services to and from Leeds whether or not that is the best use of that stock. To now suggest that Leeds again gets most of the new stock and the north west the older units strikes me again as not the best or fairest use of stock.

The fair/thin distribution of new trains might however mean more depots having to have fitters trained and carry stock for them.

 

[quantinghome]

Good to see this announced quickly following the franchise award.

A couple of thoughts:

(1) It's a good order to win. I'd think there's a strong chance of follow-on orders in 5-10 years' time when the 15X stock is due for replacement, electrification schemes (eventually) come to fruition and passenger numbers continue to grow. Rail North have expressed a desire for more standardised rolling stock, so I'd imagine future orders would be CAF's to lose.

(2) Although the trains will be the same design, presumably we will see some internal differences between the DMU/EMU Northern Connect stock and the EMUs for commuter services.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Good to see this announced quickly following the franchise award.

A couple of thoughts:

(1) It's a good order to win. I'd think there's a strong chance of follow-on orders in 5-10 years' time when the 15X stock is due for replacement, electrification schemes (eventually) come to fruition and passenger numbers continue to grow. Rail North have expressed a desire for more standardised rolling stock, so I'd imagine future orders would be CAF's to lose.

(2) Although the trains will be the same design, presumably we will see some internal differences between the DMU/EMU Northern Connect stock and the EMUs for commuter services.

I agree with 1 but not so sure about 2. Depends whether the EMUs will get used on longer distance services.

My hunch is all these new DMUs will be to replace Pacers on the services they should not be doing. That leaves the 150s (etc ?) to continue to do the more rural services that the Pacers were originally intended for !.

The EMUs obviously have to replace 323s and quite possibly the 333s. Would make sense for Northern to let its few 321s and 322s go as these will be in demand elsewhere.

Incidentally the combination of DMUs and EMUs in one invitation to tender probably provided a large enough order for bidders to be bothered with the DMU part. So Northern shedding its 323s is probably a good thing.

 

[The Lad]

There are a lot of 333's to end up between Leeds-Doncaster

 

[andyb2706]

Tony Miles has said the breakdown of new trains will be 31 x 3-car & 12 x 4-car EMUs and 25 x 2-car & 30 3-car DMUs. (Apparently from an Eversholt Press Release.)

The various announcements hint that the 333s will go on to Leeds-Doncaster and 3 car EMUs which can be doubled up will supplement the 333s on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines and indicate Glossop will get new 4 car EMUs.

So possibly
* 16 x 3 car EMUs to Yorkshire to replace the 321s and 322s
* 15 x 3 car EMUs to Manchester to replace the 323s (except on the Glossop route but allowing for Macclesfield enhancements)
* 3 x 4 car EMUs for Glossop
* 7/8 x 4 car EMUs for Blackpool/Windermere Northern Connect services.
* 1/2 spare maintenance/spare EMUs for North West routes.

Would 3 x 4 car EMU be enough on the Glossop line to run a 30 minute service during the day? Isn't it also a 20 minute peak time service?

 

[47802]

There are a lot of 333's to end up between Leeds-Doncaster

The way I read it is that Airedale/Wharfdale services will be a mix of the new trains and 333's as has been indicated by Jcollins estimated allocations, and 'Greybeard33' statement that 333's will leave Yorkshire is wrong as already stated by other posters.

 

[andyb2706]

Well I would have preferred a UK based company but according to the 'insiders' Bombardier didn't bid, of course we don't that for sure, I am also not convinced that according to some armchair experts an updated 172 would have been an option either more likely an Aventra DMU.

Either way if Bombardier, Hitachi etc didn't bid I'm sure they have there reasons I'm sure Bombardier will have the main eye on the next Tube Contract at the moment as not only would it secure Derby for quite a while but as TFL's main supplier at the moment you could argue its theirs to loose.

Off course it looks as though Arriva wanted a single supplier for both DMU and EMU had they issued a separate contract for them they would have probably got more bidders for the EMU's but Arriva have probably got a good deal from CAF for both.

Anyway at least we hopefully get some long overdue better rolling stock for Northern.

Even if Bombardier and Hitachi placed bids for the contract would they have been able to supply the trains in the required time frame?

Hitachi are full in the North East with the building of the IEP's and the AT200's for Scotrail meaning that the additional AT300's for GWR are being built in Italy.

Bombardier are busy building the Crossrail trains and the Class 710 for London Overground and Siemens are busy supplying the Thameslink stock so may be that put CAF in a favourable position, although I have to say I do quite like the design of the Civity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The way I read it is that Airedale/Wharfdale services will be a mix of the new trains and 333's as has been indicated by Jcollins estimated allocations, and 'Greybeard33' statement that 333's will leave Yorkshire is wrong as already stated by other posters.

Lets hope that if this is the case seeing it is the same manufacture that they make the unit compatible with each other in case of an emergency situation. Like if a Class 333 fails it can be assisted by a Civity, for too long now this has not been the case with new trains.

Also this sounds more sensible as I could never figure out the first reports that all the Class 333's were being moved to the Leeds - Doncaster corridor as to why would you need 16 units to cover the Leeds - Doncaster corridor when up to now they have managed with 3 units. Even if you doubled or tripled the service you would still not have needed 16 units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I note they have power sockets, tables AND wi-fi !. No good for down here in London then - where we are to get by without most of those passenger comforts !. Next they will be boasting about how many seats they are getting.

EDIT:- Must say I never realised they had electricity up North .

You now know how we felt up here in the North when all the new stuff was going down south and all we were getting was cast off hand me downs.

 

[47802]

Even if Bombardier and Hitachi placed bids for the contract would they have been able to supply the trains in the required time frame?

Hitachi are full in the North East with the building of the IEP's and the AT200's for Scotrail meaning that the additional AT300's for GWR are being built in Italy.

Bombardier are busy building the Crossrail trains and the Class 710 for London Overground and Siemens are busy supplying the Thameslink stock so may be that put CAF in a favourable position, although I have to say I do quite like the design of the Civity.

Maybe but don't forget Bombardier have been building 'S' Stock trains as well as various Electrostar orders and now the 'S' Stock contract is finished, but the delivery timeframe looks very challenging it will interesting to see if CAF meet it, I think Bombardier may well have been put off by the relatively small orders for the 172.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You now know how we felt up here in the North when all the new stuff was going down south and all we were getting was cast off hand me downs.

In the end this order makes sense, as the north got new rolling stock more recently than the south did until the big orders.

 

[quantinghome]

Depends whether the EMUs will get used on longer distance services.

The Northern Connect services from Manchester to Blackpool and (eventually) Windermere will be electric, so presumably these will get the full 'bling'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Northern Connect services from Manchester to Blackpool and (eventually) Windermere will be electric, so presumably these will get the full 'bling'.

I would expect so - hopefully in 6-car formations; 4 will be too short.

 

[Iskra]

This is what worries me. As is already the case, most of Northern's good stock is used on services to and from Leeds whether or not that is the best use of that stock. To now suggest that Leeds again gets most of the new stock and the north west the older units strikes me again as not the best or fairest use of stock.

Sorry, but that is rubbish. Leeds may have the newest, which are definitely not new any more. However, it's the Northwest that has had all of the capacity gains from the 319's and subsequent cascades, so you're getting the better deal! We'd rather have the extra capacity, any day.

And that's before you start considering 350's, 390's, electrification that is only happening in the North West. It's quite frankly laughable to suggest you're somehow getting the raw deal here.