First class tickets on Moorgate line

[jon0844]

Was there ever a first class service to Moorgate in all of its years of service? I ask because I noticed there's a first class fare from Finsbury Park to Essex Road (£14.90 return) and can't imagine why it exists when there's no possible way to travel first class.

Fares to Essex Road, and presumably other stations along the Northern City Line, exist from other stations where at least you might be able to get a train with first and change at Finsbury Park. But starting from FPK?

 

[neonison]

IIRC the Cravens twins which worked between Moorgate to Finsbury Park and beyond via the Widened Lines had some composite cars.

 

[CatfordCat]

IIRC the Cravens twins which worked between Moorgate to Finsbury Park and beyond via the Widened Lines had some composite cars.

But at that time, the Moorgate - Finsbury Park but was part of the Underground which didn't have first class...

In answer to the original question, it's possible that pre London Transport, when the line was an outpost of the Metropolitan Railway, that the trains had first class - although it seems a bit of a long time for the fare to stay in the system!

My understanding is that on lines that are advertised as second / standard class only, there isn't a first class fare and that first class is declassified on any trains with first class that run on it (my late father did enquire out of curiosity about what the first class fare would be on one of the dartford lines in the 80s when his regular train often had 2 HAP units in it)

And where did you get offered this fare?

I've just tried it on National Rail Enquiries to see if that gave any clues as to why, and even when I went in to the options and un-ticked 'standard class' I got a 'not available' sort of message and the 9.80 standard anytime return (and a shock that it's quite that much!)

 

[swt_passenger]

But at that time, the Moorgate - Finsbury Park but was part of the Underground which didn't have first class...

The reference to 'widened lines' means the lines from Kings Cross via Farringdon and Barbican to Moorgate, using the now closed York Rd and Hotel curves. These were BR operated and should not be confused with the LU operated Northern & City deep tube line.

That BR route could have had first, but then it's 40 years ago now.

 

[CatfordCat]

The reference to 'widened lines' means the lines from Kings Cross via Farringdon and Barbican to Moorgate, using the now closed York Rd and Hotel curves. These were BR operated and should not be confused with the LU operated Northern & City deep tube line.

That BR route could have had first, but then it's 40 years ago now.

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant - that while the widened lines might have had DMUs (did the widened lines get loco hauled Mk 1 suburban stock until the 70s or was that just broad street?) with first class accommodation, Essex Road was at that time on London Underground's 'Highbury Branch' as it was then referred to.

Out of curiosity, I have consulted my 1974/5 all lines timetable (the doorstep sized one) and none of the GN suburban peak hour trains to / from 'Moorgate L.T.' (i.e. via widened lines) or Broad Street are shown as having first class.

 

[jon0844]

I was offered the fare on the GWR mobile app. I looked up on brfares.com and it says it is set by ATOC?

I was just messing around looking at ways to split and maybe save money now that I am going to Essex Road most Saturdays.

Suffice to say an anytime day first class ticket is not only useless but also somewhat more expensive than a super off peak ticket! It amazes me how some TOCs don't even try to sell first class at quiet times. On trains that have first class, obviously.

Perhaps FCC should have made the private area on the 313s into first class and made a packet, instead of putting up more notices about it being a restricted area!! (not serious)

 

[Polarbear]

I'm certainly not aware that 1st class was ever provided on services between Finsbury Park & Moorgate. As has been said elsewhere, it was part of the underground network for most of its existence. As such, 1st class may have been provided, but a long time ago!

Services to Moorgate via the widened lines always had 1st class, the DMU's certainly had it as did the 317's when they were introduced. Also, services that used the former York Road route would also have conveyed 1st class.

Mind you, 1st class on a Cravens unit is a bit of an oxymoron!

 

[CyrusWuff]

Would such a ticket not be issued as Finsbury Park - London Terminals, thus making it valid into Kings Cross, which does have First Class available?

 

[jon0844]

Yes, they probably would be. Still surprised they'd be issued when implicitly selecting those two destinations. But I guess that's an oversight.

 

[crosscity]

..... that while the widened lines might have had DMUs (did the widened lines get loco hauled Mk 1 suburban stock until the 70s or was that just broad street?).....

Out of curiosity, I have consulted my 1974/5 all lines timetable (the doorstep sized one) and none of the GN suburban peak hour trains to / from 'Moorgate L.T.' (i.e. via widened lines) or Broad Street are shown as having first class.

In the seventies all I can remember at Broad St were the Richmond emu's. Moorgate was different - Class 31's hauled suburban trains via the 'Widened Lines' in the peaks only along with the Cravens dmus.

The three pictures were taken on Mon 22 Sep 1975 at Moorgate, Barbican and Broad St. No evidence of First Class on any.

 

[A0wen]

To answer the question - using the current route i.e. via the Northern City Line - no. As built the 313s were only standard class throughout.

I believe some of the services which ran to Moorgate via the Widened lines i.e. via Kings Cross and Faringdon (and indeed Broad Street) though DID have first class accommodation.

I suspect the reason why there is the option of a first class ticket to Moorgate is from a number of stations it's possible to travel 1st class to Finsbury Park, before changing for an onward service to Moorgate - even though for one leg of the journey there is no first class accommodation.

 

[jon0844]

So with a first class ticket from Finsbury Park to Essex Road, I assume I'd get a ticket from Finsbury Park to London Terminals? In that case, could I go first class to King's Cross and take the tube to Moorgate and come back?

If not, I can't actually use first class to get to my destination at all.

But, that's because the ticket I am sold isn't actually just for Essex Road. Nevertheless, should such tickets be offered, at least without any sort of warning?

 

[Tetchytyke]

A Finsbury Park to Moorgate ticket is sold as Finsbury Park to London Terminals. There is no first class accommodation down the Northern City Line but there is into London Kings Cross, which is also a London Terminal. I would imagine that the fares to Drayton Park, Highbury and Islington and Essex Road are based on the London Terminals fare, although they are not London Terminals and so the ticket would state the actual station.

If you try and find the fare on NRE it will say "no fares available" for any of the Northern City Line trains, as NRE won't list a first class fare for trains that don't carry first class accommodation. It will list a first class ticket for trains into Kings Cross. Other websites will probably interpret the data differently.

 

[jon0844]

Good to see some sites are more intelligent then.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I must admit that I overlooked the original query being Finsbury Park to Essex Road, but with London fares being zonal it'd make sense for it to be in line with Finsbury Park - London Terminals. BRFares doesn't show it as cluster-based, mind you...

 

[Dent]

I would imagine that the fares to Drayton Park, Highbury and Islington and Essex Road are based on the London Terminals fare, although they are not London Terminals and so the ticket would state the actual station.

Since fares in London are zonal, they won't be. All those stations are in Zone 2, whereas the London Terminals fare will include Zone 1.
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The three pictures were taken on Mon 22 Sep 1975 at Moorgate, Barbican and Broad St. No evidence of First Class on any.

What evidence would you expect to see? None of those pictures show any indication of what accommodation is available on the route.

 

[Kite159]

When I was at Bayford a couple weeks ago I deicded to have a play with the TVM, and it came up with having a first class fare for the hop to Cuffley (both on the Hertford loop so pretty much all 313 operated)

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=CUF&dest=BAY

 

[class387]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but on 365 operated stoppers between Kings X and Welwyn Garden City are standard class tickets valid in first class?

 

[jon0844]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but on 365 operated stoppers between Kings X and Welwyn Garden City are standard class tickets valid in first class?

Generally, yes. I was going to say yes to all - but haven't checked a timetable for some time and don't often use these trains at the moment.

Some of these services are run by 313s (or were last time I used one of the early ones to KGX in the morning) which is why.

 

[crosscity]

Crosscity: What evidence would you expect to see? None of those pictures show any indication of what accommodation is available on the route.

I posted the three pictures of Broad St, Barbican and Moorgate from the 70's as evidence that Broad St did not have loco-hauled suburban services and that the 'Widened Lines' did have such services in the peak along with the Cravens dmus.

As you say the pictures do not prove or disprove that the trains were second class only. At that time First Class was usually denoted by a yellow line at cantrail level and there is no evidence of such a line on any of the pictures. I took some other pictures of the loco-hauled trains, and can't see any evidence of First Class on them.

From memory I don't remember seeing any First Class compartments on these trains - but I am 40 years older and I might be losing brain cells!