Green Line 797

[Tetchytyke]

I am very surprised that this is not a breach of service agreement

I doubt very much that it would be, Metroline regularly use TfL-branded deckers on the 84 and Sullivans Buses often have TfL-branded buses out on Herts local services.

 

[AB93]

I doubt very much that it would be, Metroline regularly use TfL-branded deckers on the 84 and Sullivans Buses often have TfL-branded buses out on Herts local services.

Add to that London United on Surrey CC school services.

Arriva have used red Garston buses on non-TfL work before, when they've been short, and at Horsham, they allocated the TfL spec red Dart they had spare for the 465 to the Horsham park and ride.

Epsom Coaches have done it loads, though far less so now that the local buses are run as part of the coach operation.

Not quite the same, but Abellio London have transferred Darts out to Abellio Surrey and run them in full TfL spec prior to getting round to repainting them.

 

[matt_world2004]

I have seen some TfL Branded buses doing the old festival circuit at download and Reading however, since these buses are free and are non scheduled services. It doesn't create an issue of people getting on with oyster cards at donnington.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen rail replacement buses with TfL branding too. Again, no need to pay.

On the Uno 600/650 you won't be able to use local mobile tickets if it doesn't have a reader. Or should I say you will, but it won't be recorded. And how will anyone else pay? Or is there still software on London buses to take and handle cash?

 

[jon0844]

From 29th March 2016, Uno will reduce the 797 service so that it runs Hatfield to Baker Street but misses south Hatfield and will now have just two return trips in the morning and evening peak.

I'd expect that by autumn it will be gone for good.

Even services funded by S106 money that's good until 2025 are being slashed as the county council has stepped in to stop it being wasted (in its view) and so evening services Mon-Fri are mostly stopping, and Sunday services.. who wants to travel anywhere on a Sunday?!!

 

[AM9]

I doubt very much that it would be, Metroline regularly use TfL-branded deckers on the 84 and Sullivans Buses often have TfL-branded buses out on Herts local services.

I recently went on an 84 in St Albans. It was an Enviro 200 with windows so dirty that passengers could only tell where we were by looking through the front windscreen.
One passenger mentioned the state of them to the driver. His reponse was that the bus was 'only washed every other day', adding wryly that they (Metroline) 'wouldn't get away with that on a TfL service!'.
On reflection, I realised that TfL services are generally well turned out despite being heavily used almost every day.

 

[Busaholic]

From 29th March 2016, Uno will reduce the 797 service so that it runs Hatfield to Baker Street but misses south Hatfield and will now have just two return trips in the morning and evening peak.

I'd expect that by autumn it will be gone for good.

Little point in continuing until autumn on that basis, unless they've got some nutters (sorry, respected customers) who've paid up well in advance for the service. It's a dead coach service walking, which is presumably the problem: often quicker to walk over some of the sections of route. I don't see how any commuter, no matter how cash-strapped, could endure such conditions, particularly once it stops serving homes which are some distance from a railway station.

 

[jon0844]

In case anyone is interested, these are the other changes in Hatfield. https://www.dropbox.com/s/60rwujv1sum6hur/BusChanges-290316.pdf?dl=0

I typed then up from documents I've been given. They've not been published by Intalink as yet (or not that I could see).

 

[hassaanhc]

I recently went on an 84 in St Albans. It was an Enviro 200 with windows so dirty that passengers could only tell where we were by looking through the front windscreen.
One passenger mentioned the state of them to the driver. His reponse was that the bus was 'only washed every other day', adding wryly that they (Metroline) 'wouldn't get away with that on a TfL service!'.
On reflection, I realised that TfL services are generally well turned out despite being heavily used almost every day.

Some garages (from a range of operators) have issues with the bus washer during cold weather. I know locally that Go Ahead at Silvertown haven't washed their vehicles for many days and they're very dirty. Even Stagecoach (regarded by some on here as the best) have issues at Barking.

 

[AM9]

Some garages (from a range of operators) have issues with the bus washer during cold weather. I know locally that Go Ahead at Silvertown haven't washed their vehicles for many days and they're very dirty. Even Stagecoach (regarded by some on here as the best) have issues at Barking.

I forgot to mention in my post that he saidTfL insists that buses are washed every day whereas Herts CC only requires every other day. This was (I assume) at Barnet or wherever the local Metroline garage is.

 

[Busaholic]

I forgot to mention in my post that he saidTfL insists that buses are washed every day whereas Herts CC only requires every other day. This was (I assume) at Barnet or wherever the local Metroline garage is.

The garage is at Potter's Bar, and houses both TfL and non-TfL buses, so it's a bit like Royal Mail with a first and second class service.

 

[jon0844]

Soon HCC will just say to run the bus every other day!

 

[Deerfold]

I forgot to mention in my post that he saidTfL insists that buses are washed every day whereas Herts CC only requires every other day. This was (I assume) at Barnet or wherever the local Metroline garage is.

That's odd - no part of the 84 is specified by HCC, so I'm not sure why they'd come into this at all.

 

[philjo]

I think HCC used to support some of the late evening services on route 84 but I believe it is now a fully commercial route?

I was on one of the older double deckers on the 84 from Potters Bar Station this morning (after the Sullivans 398 had kindly left about 30 seconds early so we missed it after arriving on the train) - there was a distinct lack of heating on the 84!
I was on one single deck 84 recently where it was very difficult to see out of the windows.

Does anyone know of any forthcoming changes happening in North Herts ?

 

[jon0844]

Is the 84 the one that had a different operator on some days (Sunday and possibly Saturday or evenings)? I know there was one bus in Potters Bar that was.

 

[philjo]

I think that is the 242 Potters Bar - Waltham Abbey.

 

[class387]

Is there any more info on the 610 changes eg. routing/any extentions withdrawn/timetable?
Thanks.

 

[jon0844]

All the changes submitted now:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1idln3w7j2sm3p0/hcc-feb.pdf?dl=0

 

[A0]

Up on Intalink website now, together with a stack of other changes.

Have to say the one which surprised me was the withdrawl of the 366 between Luton & WGC on a Saturday.

I'd have expected there to be enough shoppers to keep that in place - though the 366 was an HCC contract when de-regulation first occurred in the 80s.

The other slightly surprising one is curtailing the Saturday 44 from Stevenage to Luton at Peters Green. Now whilst I get Peters Green is the boundary for Herts, it really is in the middle of nowhere - and I don't think that service needs 2 buses, so not sure what they gain by not running it through to Luton.

 

[spuddie]

Sounds like the first step towards not running the 44 at all on a Saturday, not even sure how busy it is in the week any more.

 

[A0]

Sounds like the first step towards not running the 44 at all on a Saturday, not even sure how busy it is in the week any more.

The 44 is one of those rarities where the service is actually better than it was 30 years ago - when it was first contracted it only ran end to end on a couple of weekdays with the short journeys being (I think) Kimpton - Stevenage.

The weekday service now is far more extensive than it used to be.

What Herts doesn't have is a Demand Response type service which could be used to cover several of the villages which the 44 does.

 

[spuddie]

The 44 used to be a great route back in the day where you could get a nice long country ride out on a National, Tiger or Lynx.

Same with the 366 too but best rides on that were braving a front seat upper deck seat on an Olympian.

 

[MedwayValiant]

The 44 traditionally belonged to United Counties, who ran it out of Hitchin. There was one return journey to Luton on Tuesdays, one to Stevenage on Thursdays, and four each way on Saturdays.

Is Hertfordshire really big enough for DRT? If Hertfordshire CC ever decided that it was, I'd expect the area north of Hertford / east of the A10 to be the first to get it.

On the 366, my guess is that Herts CC is secretly hoping for another operator to volunteer to run a Saturday service along the Lower Luton Road for no money, with the idea that the curtailed 44 could then connect into this at New Mill End. Hertfordshire's largest operator hasn't done anything very interesting in Herts for a few years, so perhaps Arriva should be the one to step up to that plate.

While on Hertfordshire, the Intalink update for March has missed something. It states correctly that Arriva will not run the 301 (Bishop's Stortford - Saffron Walden) after 26 March, but it implies that the service is withdrawn without replacement. Not so - that route is an Essex contract which has been retendered, and Stephensons will be taking it over with the same timetable. I remember when that route was Eastern National's ...

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield residents (and the surrounds) are pretty screwed because a lot of passengers are students, and Uno gives a discount to students (£1 a journey) because it's owned by the Uni.

I can't see how Arriva or anyone else could step in because Uno could compete on the profitable routes and undercut, or the bus operator offers reduced fares of its own without any subsidy from the Uni.

 

[A0]

The 44 traditionally belonged to United Counties, who ran it out of Hitchin. There was one return journey to Luton on Tuesdays, one to Stevenage on Thursdays, and four each way on Saturdays.
.

I don't think that's right.

My understanding from one of the books on LCBS is the 44 was introduced in the mid 70s as a joint LCBS and UCOC operation.

LCBS operated the 'short' journies which ran to/from Stevenage. It was one of the last routes SV used RP class Reliances on.

Both operators ran end to end journies, in the case of UCOC from Luton depot.

I think it then passed entirely to LCBS - I've never seen any record of Luton and District operating it - remember L&D was formed from UC and took both Hitchin & Luton depots.

In the late 80s the 44 went through several operators - Welwyn Hatfield Line, Busybus (I think) and Seamarks? Before ending up with Centrebus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hatfield residents (and the surrounds) are pretty screwed because a lot of passengers are students, and Uno gives a discount to students (£1 a journey) because it's owned by the Uni.

I can't see how Arriva or anyone else could step in because Uno could compete on the profitable routes and undercut, or the bus operator offers reduced fares of its own without any subsidy from the Uni.

Hatfield and Welwyn have never had particularly high bus usage.

The local services (the G routes) went out to tender as part of deregulation as did a number of other routes 366, 341.

The only corridors which have ever sustained commercial operations were to St Albans and Watford / Hemel, to Welwyn and Stevenage and to Harlow.

Uno's arrival and even after these changes, means Hatfield has a much better network of town services than it had in the 80s or 90s

 

[MedwayValiant]

I don't think that's right.

My understanding from one of the books on LCBS is the 44 was introduced in the mid 70s as a joint LCBS and UCOC operation. LCBS operated the 'short' journies which ran to/from Stevenage. It was one of the last routes SV used RP class Reliances on.

Actually, that sounds familiar now you say it so I stand suitably corrected. There definitely was a point in the late 80s when UC alone had the route; it and the 314 (WGC - Hitchin via Codicote) were their two "invasions" into what was otherwise LCNE territory in those days.

I don't think Luton and District ever had it, but Welwyn Hatfield Line absolutely did. They won that contract in whichever year it was (1989?) when LCNE lost nearly all of what was up for retendering. A lot of the routes went to the fly-by-night Jubilee Coaches of Stevenage, who were way out of their depth and surrendered most of their contracts within a couple of months. WHL took the 44 in that round, and bid hard for the 366 as well - but that was one of the few which did stay with LCNE.

Hatfield and Welwyn have never had particularly high bus usage.
The local services (the G routes) went out to tender as part of deregulation as did a number of other routes 366, 341.

Don't remind me of Sampson's, who won the G routes contract and ran it using half a dozen 40 year old deckers bought very cheaply from Manchester. Most of the G routes disappeared after WHL raced them off the road, but the G4 (Panshanger) carried on a couple of years longer.

The G4 eventually got a brand new Transit van, and for the last year Sampson's ran a 20 minute interval service which took 17 minutes to get round. Even though it did that for eleven hours a day, they ran it with one bus and one driver. Those were the days ...

Uno's arrival and even after these changes, means Hatfield has a much better network of town services than it had in the 80s or 90s

Hatfield has, but WGC has perhaps fared less well. Hatfield ought to be good bus territory since the station, the main shops, the main employers, and the traditional town centre are all fairly long walks from each other. WGC is more conventional - everything is in the middle - and its town services aren't really frequent enough.

 

[A0]

Actually, that sounds familiar now you say it so I stand suitably corrected. There definitely was a point in the late 80s when UC alone had the route; it and the 314 (WGC - Hitchin via Codicote) were their two "invasions" into what was otherwise LCNE territory in those days.

I don't think Luton and District ever had it, but Welwyn Hatfield Line absolutely did. They won that contract in whichever year it was (1989?) when LCNE lost nearly all of what was up for retendering. A lot of the routes went to the fly-by-night Jubilee Coaches of Stevenage, who were way out of their depth and surrendered most of their contracts within a couple of months. WHL took the 44 in that round, and bid hard for the 366 as well - but that was one of the few which did stay with LCNE.

The 314 was an HCC contract - in fact the route before the 314 existed was actually the old Birch Bros route from London - Rushden. Birch were taken over by UCOC in the late 60s and ultimately there was a route between Welwyn Village and Hitchin which UCOC operated. A reshuffle in the late 70s or early 80s resulted in the 314 being created and operated by LCBS from Stevenage.

When deregulation happened the 314 passed to United Counties - but operated from Biggleswade - as by that time the Hitchin depot was Luton & District.

I don't ever recall UC operating the 44 after deregulation. I do recall WHL operating it (I have some pics somewhere) and it was with them when Sovereign took them over.

Jubilee coaches weren't exactly 'fly by night' - they were actually a fairly long-established Stevenage based operator - but they massively over extended themselves by taking on a load of HCC contracts and starting up a load of commercial services in Stevenage. They ended up surrendering their HCC contracts fairly quickly and shortly after were taken over by Sovereign.

Don't remind me of Sampson's, who won the G routes contract and ran it using half a dozen 40 year old deckers bought very cheaply from Manchester. Most of the G routes disappeared after WHL raced them off the road, but the G4 (Panshanger) carried on a couple of years longer.

The G4 eventually got a brand new Transit van, and for the last year Sampson's ran a 20 minute interval service which took 17 minutes to get round. Even though it did that for eleven hours a day, they ran it with one bus and one driver. Those were the days ...

Most of Sampson's Fleetlines were actually ex SYPTE ones (with ECW bodywork) or ex London DMSs. They didn't have many ex GMPTE examples. And they were nowhere near 40 years old - bear in mind this was the mid-80s and those buses tended to be mid 70s ones - in fact they weren't that different from a good number of the ANs which LCBS were running around Stevenage, Harlow, Watford and Hemel at the time, albeit the LCBS stuff was probably better maintained.

The oldest stuff Sampsons had were some Bristol REs - oddly enough a couple of which were ex UCOC.....

The 'Transit' you refer to was, I think, an Iveco minibus - but by that stage the G4 was just about the only G route left after WHL had come on the scene.

Hatfield has, but WGC has perhaps fared less well. Hatfield ought to be good bus territory since the station, the main shops, the main employers, and the traditional town centre are all fairly long walks from each other. WGC is more conventional - everything is in the middle - and its town services aren't really frequent enough.

The WGC route map isn't that different from 30 years ago - you've still got dedicated 'town' services running to / from Panshanger and Haldens, with all other areas being served by 'longer' routes.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Thanks aowen. You're proving to me something I should have known anyway - most of what you think you know when you're young and foolish is actually wrong, and so you remember it wrong!

I do remember the Jubilee Coaches destination blinds though. Whether they were made in house or what I don't know, but they were full of spelling mistakes - "Harpendon" led to a furious letter to the Herts Advertiser from an older chap of that town - and that really didn't improve their image.

There must genuinely have been at least one GMPTE vehicle in the Sampson's fleet, because it still carried an advert for a pub in Bolton. Welwyn Hatfield Line started up with a fleet of new Optare CityPacers, but they added some older vehicles too; there was one which was all over red and which the drivers dubbed The Fire Engine.

In the early days of Uno - then called Universitybus, and the services were initially not available to the general public - they had a couple of vehicles in the Scottish shape, which were never a common sight in the south of England.

I'm reasonably sure that the G4 was eventually the only G route standing. Herts CC chose not to retender most of them once WHL had come onto the scene, but the G4 carried on. It was registered as commercial once Sovereign had taken Sampson's over, and then withdrawn within a few months.

In the days of the one driver on the G4, he was a smoker and allowed his passengers to smoke, which by then was becoming unusual. WHL never allowed smoking (although some of the drivers did it anyway ...), and so my parents wanted me only to use their services.

I lived in Panshanger in those days - my move to Kent was in the late 90s - and for a while we had eight buses per hour from WGC. The G4 ran every 20 minutes, the WH Line rival the WH4 every half hour, and there was also the WH7 (WH Line WGC - Panshanger - Hatfield), the 366, and the 724.

The 366 no longer goes that way and the 724 now skirts the edge of Panshanger past the golf course and doesn't serve the shopping centre, so the half hourly 401 is what there is. Clearly worse than 25 years ago!

 

[A0]

Thanks aowen. You're proving to me something I should have known anyway - most of what you think you know when you're young and foolish is actually wrong, and so you remember it wrong!

I do remember the Jubilee Coaches destination blinds though. Whether they were made in house or what I don't know, but they were full of spelling mistakes - "Harpendon" led to a furious letter to the Herts Advertiser from an older chap of that town - and that really didn't improve their image.

There must genuinely have been at least one GMPTE vehicle in the Sampson's fleet, because it still carried an advert for a pub in Bolton. Welwyn Hatfield Line started up with a fleet of new Optare CityPacers, but they added some older vehicles too; there was one which was all over red and which the drivers dubbed The Fire Engine.

There were definitely some ex GMPTE vehicles with Sampson's - I recall one running around in GMPTE colours - but their original horrors were ex SYPTE and LT - with some ex-WMPTE stuff as well.

The only 'all over red' vehicle WHL had was a Vauxhall Astramax !

Their other vehicles were - a Bedford VAS (which was red/white/blue) regn 119 UYA, a Bristol LH coach which they acquired from Taylors of Meppershall and initially ran in Taylors pink & purple, a Bedford (YRQ?) with Duple coach body and then 2 ex South Wales Bedford buses with Duple bodies. They subsequently swapped one of the Bedford buses for an ex-Merseyside Quest - the swap was with Millers of Cambridge IIRC.

In the early days of Uno - then called Universitybus, and the services were initially not available to the general public - they had a couple of vehicles in the Scottish shape, which were never a common sight in the south of England.

Correct - their original operation was inter-campus transfers between Hertford, Hatfield and Watford - they then realised they could also make some money by running these as public services and changing their routing slightly. Commercially a very sensible thing to do.

I'm reasonably sure that the G4 was eventually the only G route standing. Herts CC chose not to retender most of them once WHL had come onto the scene, but the G4 carried on. It was registered as commercial once Sovereign had taken Sampson's over, and then withdrawn within a few months.

In the days of the one driver on the G4, he was a smoker and allowed his passengers to smoke, which by then was becoming unusual. WHL never allowed smoking (although some of the drivers did it anyway ...), and so my parents wanted me only to use their services.

I lived in Panshanger in those days - my move to Kent was in the late 90s - and for a while we had eight buses per hour from WGC. The G4 ran every 20 minutes, the WH Line rival the WH4 every half hour, and there was also the WH7 (WH Line WGC - Panshanger - Hatfield), the 366, and the 724.

The 366 no longer goes that way and the 724 now skirts the edge of Panshanger past the golf course and doesn't serve the shopping centre, so the half hourly 401 is what there is. Clearly worse than 25 years ago!

They'd changed the G4 route - the old one followed the route the WH4 used i.e Heronswood Road, Ridgeway, Daniells etc. The later one went Bessemer Road, Mundells, Herns Way, Moors Walk, Black Fan Road, Mundells.

The 366 had, at various times, run both via Panshanger and Heronswood Road. Sending it via Panshanger actually slowed it down - having said that the 366 was always slightly irregularly timetabled - it was never consistently an hourly service. As for the 724 - I'm guessing timing has come into play again - that and carrying shoppers from WGC town centre back to Panshanger really isn't the purpose of a long-distance service. Again, over time the 724 has had various routes into and out of WGC and hasn't always served Panshanger.

 

[spuddie]

Thanks guys for the interesting history on the WGC and Hatfield areas, you have filled in a area of my knowledge that I was too young to remember.

My main memory starts from when Welwyn Hatfield Line got a number of the ex-Jubilee MCW Metroriders, these later got joined and replaced by Mercedes 709D's and the last WHL route to survive was the WH4 which ran with a new Volvo B6LE.

I think I remember at one time panshanger used to be served by both the WH1 and the WH4. School holidays used to be best as it would be common for a Bristol VR or Leyland Olympian to appear on the route.

Back to the 44, Sovereign certainly ran that again between Seamarks and Grant Palmer, mainly using Lynx G206URO for many years and then B6LE R603WMJ which came from St Albans.

On a side note I was always interested in how Stevenage's vehicles always stayed strongly allocated to certain workings (for example out of their 2 734 workings, Lynx 284 was always on the same one) where as North Mymms and St Albans were more mixed. One week I had the same National 4 days in a row and on 4 different routes (302, 338/9, 366 and 734).