Gatwick Express & Oyster Travelcards

[trivran]

I would like to make a single journey on the Gatwick Express from Gatwick Airport to Victoria only, at around 2200 on a Friday. I hold a 16+ Oyster which I put a monthly 1-4 on every month and would combine this with a Gatwick Airport to Boundary Zone 4 DSB Anytime Day Single.

Noting Gatwick Express' spiel on their website that 'Gatwick Express is not included in [...] the Travelcard zone' but otherwise previous advice that combinations of Oyster travelcards and boundary zone tickets are valid, I'd like to know what will happen to my measly PAYG balance when I touch out of the Gatwick Express platforms. I seem to remember in a previous thread it being said that the full Gatwick Express fare (of £9.90 in my case) would be charged when touching out of the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria, but how does this square with the ticket combination and travelcard? Are Gatwick Express likely to throw much of a tantrum at the combination or a request to not touch out at the Gatwick Express gateline?

Please note that I am not interested in the merits, cost or speed or whatever else wise with regards to the Thameslink and regular Southern routes, which I am aware exist as alternatives to the Gatwick Express.

 

[74A]

I'm confused. You say you have a zone 1-4 monthly travel card which you will combine with a boundary zone 4 to Gatwick anytime single. If that is true you will have a paper ticket for the barriers.

Why do you then say you will touch out at the barriers. If you do that you will be charged twice for the same journey.

 

[yorkie]

I would like to make a single journey on the Gatwick Express from Gatwick Airport to Victoria only, at around 2200 on a Friday. I hold a 16+ Oyster which I put a monthly 1-4 on every month and would combine this with a Gatwick Airport to Boundary Zone 4 DSB Anytime Day Single.

That's fine.

Noting Gatwick Express' spiel on their website that 'Gatwick Express is not included in [...] the Travelcard zone'

It is true that GTR services branded "Gatwick Express" (which is a joke as it's not express) go beyond the Travelcard zones, so an extension is needed.

but otherwise previous advice that combinations of Oyster travelcards and boundary zone tickets are valid, I'd like to know what will happen to my measly PAYG balance when I touch out of the Gatwick Express platforms.

The safest thing to do is to use a paper ticket, and do not touch your Oyster card on the reader. Show both paper ticket and Oyster card at the gateline and explain you're combining a paper ticket with a Travelcard, which is held on Oyster. The staff can read the Oyster card but they should not act in any way which causes any PAYG credit to be deducted. If they do, you need to submit a refund request.

I would advise taking a photo of your paper ticket before you commence the journey, to ensure the evidence of it is isn't lost or tampered with.

I seem to remember in a previous thread it being said that the full Gatwick Express fare (of £9.90 in my case) would be charged when touching out of the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria, but how does this square with the ticket combination and travelcard? Are Gatwick Express likely to throw much of a tantrum at the combination or a request to not touch out at the Gatwick Express gateline?

A tantrum cannot be ruled out, but I am not sure I'd like to give a prediction or not!

Please note that I am not interested in the merits, cost or speed or whatever else wise with regards to the Thameslink and regular Southern routes, which I am aware exist as alternatives to the Gatwick Express.

Agreed, the sensible option is to take a Gatwick Express branded train that is a Gatwick starter, as it will be carting a lot of fresh air and you can get a table of 4, if not an entire coach, to yourself It's a sensible choice to take these trains, but of course never ever paying the "premium" fares, which are totally unnecessary.
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I'm confused. You say you have a zone 1-4 monthly travel card which you will combine with a boundary zone 4 to Gatwick anytime single. If that is true you will have a paper ticket for the barriers.

Why do you then say you will touch out at the barriers. If you do that you will be charged twice for the same journey.

I agree the paper ticket will work at Gatwick Airport, but is unlikely to work the barrier at Victoria. That said, it's worth a try...

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you touch in at Gatwick Airport and touch out at Victoria P13-14, you will be charged the full Gatwick Express fare, less any railcard discounts.

If you use a paper extension ticket to enter at Gatwick Airport and touch out at Victoria P13-14, internal staff briefings imply that you will be charged the full Gatwick Express fare. You will need to ask the gateline staff to let you out without touching your card on the reader. Some gateline staff may have access to an Oyster reader which tells them if you have a valid Travelcard on the card. If they refuse, you may be able to get a refund from the Oyster helpline, but that's not guaranteed.

A combination of a boundary zone ticket and a Travelcard should be valid, although whether you would get a tantrum or not remains to be seen.

 

[yorkie]

It is valid, and any tantrums can be dealt with by complaints to the company and, failing that, reporting of a franchise breach to the DfT, consumer law breach to ORR, and assistance from London Travelwatch.

But surely all gateline staff can be trusted to do their job correctly. Right?

 

[trivran]

Thanks all for your advice and reassurance.

I'm confused. You say you have a zone 1-4 monthly travel card which you will combine with a boundary zone 4 to Gatwick anytime single. If that is true you will have a paper ticket for the barriers.

Why do you then say you will touch out at the barriers. If you do that you will be charged twice for the same journey.

I said I would combine it with a Gatwick to BZ4 single, not the other way around. In my experience BZ4 tickets often, but not always work the barriers at London Terminals. It is my unjustified opinion that it is likely to be the case at the Gatwick Express barriers at Victoria that boundary zone tickets will be set to reject.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Minor drama hath occurred, and mostly been resolved.

The date of travel on the ticket purchased is the 8th of April, which as fortune would have it is the intended date of travel.

Today I went to Victoria to purchase the GTW - BZ4 single. Wonderful as the Southern machines are in offering this, they did not appear to have the option for future dates and so I attempted to purchase at a Southern ticket window. I was informed that boundary zone tickets are not available in the London direction. Though, owing to the chav-proof glass I was not entirely able to hear the reason for this, upon later inspection of the RailUK Fares guide I believe this to be the gist of the reasoning:

Until 2011, Boundary Zone tickets were only supposed to be sold with an origin of a Boundary Zone location (i.e. heading away from London). This ceased to be the case with effect from NFM10, but a number of stations outside London are still reluctant to sell tickets from a regional origin to a Boundary Zone. If this arises, you are entitled under NRCoC 3 to purchase a ticket for part of your journey and part-exchange it on your train or at your destination for the ticket you want. (In practice this may be dealt with by an over-distance excess.)

In lieu of the boundary 4 ticket I was sold a GTW - Selhurst (zone 4) single. This came in at £3.45, £2.10 cheaper than the boundary 4, and brought with it a thousand free assurances that I would be fine to use this on the Gatwick Express.

I went off in search of a second opinion. As luck would have it a group of RPOs were hosting a convention at the Gatwick Express gateline. Amongst them was unanimous agreement that the GTW - Selhurst ticket was not valid as a replacement for a boundary 4. I attempted to have the Selhurst ticket 'excessed' (I am not aware if such a thing is possible for boundary zone tickets) to boundary 4 at the adjacent Gatwick Express ticket office. The woman behind my counter took my ticket, (presumably called the next customer forward too, as they were breathing down my neck), and asked if I had my luggage. I believe this to have been done in the mistaken belief that I had already travelled; upon reading the date on the ticket she too informed me that it was valid. My ticket was returned.

I returned to the gateline; armed with a member of staff in Gatwick Express uniform I had the Selhurst ticket 'endorsed' by the same Gatwick Express ticket office clerk staff member person by use of rubber stamp. I believe this to be the end of any dispute, though not without the possibility of giving rise to another; as you may be able to see having sat in my pocket and oyster wallet it has already started to fade. The words '10 Mar' are only visible from a very precise angle.

As a final aside, I had time to go to Paddington ticket office, who informed me that they would sell me a GTW - Boundary 4 single if I asked, and that in their opinion the Selhurst ticket was not valid. "Gatwick Express doesn't stop anywhere," I am told. The "duh!" is implied.

I apologise for the length of post here, but I feel all the details are necessary. I would much appreciate the opinion of anybody, particularly those trained in the dark arts of boundary zone tickets, as to validity here. I am particularly concerned as to the price difference between the two tickets. I intend for now to use the Selhurst ticket as 'endorsed'.

 

[yorkie]

In lieu of the boundary 4 ticket I was sold a GTW - Selhurst (zone 4) single. This came in at £3.45, £2.10 cheaper than the boundary 4, and brought with it a thousand free assurances that I would be fine to use this on the Gatwick Express.

That's fine, as your Travelcard is a Season ticket.

I went off in search of a second opinion. As luck would have it a group of RPOs were hosting a convention at the Gatwick Express gateline. Amongst them was unanimous agreement that the GTW - Selhurst ticket was not valid as a replacement for a boundary 4.

Sir, a couple of brief points: firstly, GTR RPOs are not adequately qualified to determine ticket validity; secondly, I wouldn't trust them to open a can of sardines that was already open.

I attempted to have the Selhurst ticket 'excessed' (I am not aware if such a thing is possible for boundary zone tickets) to boundary 4 at the adjacent Gatwick Express ticket office. The woman behind my counter took my ticket, (presumably called the next customer forward too, as they were breathing down my neck), and asked if I had my luggage. I believe this to have been done in the mistaken belief that I had already travelled; upon reading the date on the ticket she too informed me that it was valid. My ticket was returned.

She is correct, it was indeed valid.

I returned to the gateline; armed with a member of staff in Gatwick Express uniform I had the Selhurst ticket 'endorsed' by the same Gatwick Express ticket office clerk staff member person by use of rubber stamp. I believe this to be the end of any dispute, though not without the possibility of giving rise to another; as you may be able to see having sat in my pocket and oyster wallet it has already started to fade. The words '10 Mar' are only visible from a very precise angle.

As a final aside, I had time to go to Paddington ticket office, who informed me that they would sell me a GTW - Boundary 4 single if I asked, and that in their opinion the Selhurst ticket was not valid. "Gatwick Express doesn't stop anywhere," I am told. The "duh!" is implied.

Paddington ticket office staff unaware of Condition 19(c)? It's their job to know, but I am not surprised.

I apologise for the length of post here, but I feel all the details are necessary. I would much appreciate the opinion of anybody, particularly those trained in the dark arts of boundary zone tickets, as to validity here. I am particularly concerned as to the price difference between the two tickets. I intend for now to use the Selhurst ticket as 'endorsed'.

The combination is valid under NRCoC Condition 19(c).

A lot of people seem to know about Condition 19(b) but not so many know about 19(a) or 19(c). I believe this is because hardly anyone reads the Conditions And yes that includes some people whose job it is to understand them!

Our fares guide mentions this, it's under Split ticketing

 

[talldave]

The 8th April, when you attempt to use your ticket, will bring a whole load more aggro as you'll have all the same arguments again with the "make it up as you go along" red gestapo.

GTW -BZn tickets are available and you should have stuck to your guns, not allow them to palm you off with something you didn't ask for. A complaint to Southern would be in order, although be prepared for utter crap in response as they're lacking in basic English skills and will answer a question you didn't ask.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In lieu of the boundary 4 ticket I was sold a GTW - Selhurst (zone 4) single. This came in at £3.45, £2.10 cheaper than the boundary 4, and brought with it a thousand free assurances that I would be fine to use this on the Gatwick Express.

That is entirely correct, as the train goes through Selhurst and- because of condition 19(c)- the train does not have to call at the station where you change tickets when one ticket is a season ticket. Your monthly Travelcard is treated as a season ticket.

As luck would have it a group of RPOs were hosting a convention at the Gatwick Express gateline. Amongst them was unanimous agreement that the GTW - Selhurst ticket was not valid as a replacement for a boundary 4

Gatwick Express RPOs making rubbish up as they go along?

Well, that's unheard of.
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GTW -BZn tickets are available and you should have stuck to your guns, not allow them to palm you off with something you didn't ask for.

I disagree here, I think it was good of the clerk to save the OP £2.10.

 

[talldave]

I disagree here, I think it was good of the clerk to save the OP £2.10.

Fair point, provided the clerk clearly understood that it was being used with a season to give Gatwick Express validity.

However, would the clerk refuse to sell a BZ6 ticket to a one day paper 1-6 Travelcard holder??

Buying at the other end of the route, I've had to argue with a Gatwick ticket office clerk in the past to be sold a Gatwick - BZ6 ticket and not a Gatwick to East Croydon ticket (a) because it's what I asked for and (b) because I wanted to travel in the sumptuous luxury of the Gatwick Express with the tantalising risk of being stuck in a cold tunnel for 3hrs again. The clerk had no clue what I was on about in terms of my reasoning.

 

[trivran]

Thank you all once again for your clarifications here. I was previously confused by the wording of 19(c) and so erred on the cautious sides of 'invalid' and 'irrelevant to the situation', which I now know to be untrue.

Sir, a couple of brief points: firstly, GTR RPOs are not adequately qualified to determine ticket validity; secondly, I wouldn't trust them to open a can of sardines that was already open.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments on their relative intelligence, unfortunately it will be them who inevitably travel with me on 8/4. Indeed I could sense one itching for a P/Fare before reading the date on the ticket, however wrong it would be to issue one.

I disagree here, I think it was good of the clerk to save the OP £2.10.

I am somewhat pleased about my giant savings but I feel they were only made because the first clerk I spoke to felt it was not permissible to sell me the GTW - BZ4 single, not because he saw it as a good deal.

 

[yorkie]

If they issue a PF, accept it, we'll request compensation on top of a full refund and we'll report a breach of GTR's franchise agreement, consumer law and penalty fare legislation!

It's time they were dealt with properly.