Most hated traction

[DarloRich]

I'm not for one minute suggesting 87001 is anywhere close to Flying Scotsman in terms of appeal to the wider masses. I am saying that from a personal point of view as a person who grew up, in railway terms, with 87s around every day that 87001 means a lot more to me personally.
Added to that the fact that I have driven it in service then of course it's going to be a lot more relevant to me.

now you are just showing off I would like to see it running again but don't think it will happen

 

[FQ]

Call me a philistine but I just don't get the Flying Scotsman hype and wibble.
To me it's just another kettle. A kettle that causes mayhem when it runs on the mainline.
I would definitely rather see 87001 running

Something that we fully agree on then!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Playing Devil's advocate for a moment here...

For a lot of enthusiasts I think the issue with Flying Scotsman, besides the amount spent on it, is the very fact that even "normals" get excited about it seems to devalue the hobby. As enthusiasts we are often mocked and scorned by the general public, and many of us end up "in the closet" as it were... To then see the likes of Harry Gration getting all misty-eyed about Scotsman seems somewhat incongruous. It's a bit like when an obscure indie band has their first breakthrough hit and suddenly everyone is going on about them. The obvious example would be Modest Mouse who made some brilliant records which sank without trace on this side of the pond, until Johnny Marr joined and all of a sudden the likes of Zane Lowe and Chris Moyles were saying "hey guys, check out Johnny Marr's new band!" :roll:

It is essentially a form of snobbery and I'm not saying it's right, but I think it is a factor. Enthusiasts like indie-kids are a flawed and weak people, and I'm both!

 

[RichmondCommu]

For a lot of enthusiasts I think the issue with Flying Scotsman, besides the amount spent on it, is the very fact that even "normals" get excited about it seems to devalue the hobby. As enthusiasts we are often mocked and scorned by the general public, and many of us end up "in the closet" as it were... To then see the likes of Harry Gration getting all misty-eyed about Scotsman seems somewhat incongruous. It's a bit like when an obscure indie band has their first breakthrough hit and suddenly everyone is going on about them. The obvious example would be Modest Mouse who made some brilliant records which sank without trace on this side of the pond, until Johnny Marr joined and all of a sudden the likes of Zane Lowe and Chris Moyles were saying "hey guys, check out Johnny Marr's new band!" :roll:

If I wish to have a day out on a preserved railway or drive somewhere to see a steam engine pass by (all of this probably three to four times a year) my wife will more than likely come along. My wife understands the attraction of steam and does show mild interest but would consider driving up to three hours to travel behind a class 87 a waste of time. My two grown up daughters couldn't care less about trains but for whatever reason will wave at a steam engine.

In terms of rail enthusiasts being mocked for enjoying their hobby (and I consider myself to be a rail enthusiast) in my experience a lot depends on the extremes of the hobby. And as with many other things in life I'm afraid to say appearance. If you look normal and behave in a normal way you don't tend to stick out like a sore thumb.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is essentially a form of snobbery and I'm not saying it's right, but I think it is a factor. Enthusiasts like indie-kids are a flawed and weak people, and I'm both!

Nothing uncool about being an indie-kid! My wife and I had a our second date at a indie gig and I wouldn't describe the two of us as being either flawed or weak! And you certainly don't come across as being flawed!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If I wish to have a day out on a preserved railway or drive somewhere to see a steam engine pass by (all of this probably three to four times a year) my wife will more than likely come along. My wife understands the attraction of steam and does show mild interest but would consider driving up to three hours to travel behind a class 87 a waste of time. My two grown up daughters couldn't care less about trains but for whatever reason will wave at a steam engine.

In terms of rail enthusiasts being mocked for enjoying their hobby (and I consider myself to be a rail enthusiast) in my experience a lot depends on the extremes of the hobby. And as with many other things in life I'm afraid to say appearance. If you look normal and behave in a normal way you don't tend to stick out like a sore thumb.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Nothing uncool about being an indie-kid! My wife and I had a our second date at a indie gig and I wouldn't describe the two of us as being either flawed or weak! And you certainly don't come across as being flawed!

I get your point about what might be called the "romance" of steam, certainly even most non-enthusiasts would be likely to take their smartphones out and grab a pic of a passing steam special. My father is not an enthusiast but was in his youth along with his older brother who HAS kept up the hobby. I remember my dad saying that diesels were boring because they all look the same- whereas to me the same could be said of kettles other than the A4s. As a general rule my interest in the railways is about the history, and about the journeys rather than the traction. I guess I don't particularly look like the stereotypical trainspotter though, so it isn't difficult to keep the hobby on the down-low, if you get my drift!

All that being said, I do believe the image of the hobby has become less negative in recent years, in part down to Palin, Portillo and Tarrant (and indeed the positive attention given to the Scotsman restoration) but also because the railway has become a political talking point as more and more people use the network.

As for flaws, thanks... Though I'm of the belief that everyone has some. For example I'm on the autistic spectrum which may or may not be a flaw depending on what sort of mood I'm in. It does feed into my (obsessive, at times) interest in both railways and indie-rock somewhat, I suppose!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Of course though I say I'm not all that fussed about kettles, I have named (or numbered?) myself after one!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I get your point about what might be called the "romance" of steam, certainly even most non-enthusiasts would be likely to take their smartphones out and grab a pic of a passing steam special. My father is not an enthusiast but was in his youth along with his older brother who HAS kept up the hobby. I remember my dad saying that diesels were boring because they all look the same- whereas to me the same could be said of kettles other than the A4s. As a general rule my interest in the railways is about the history, and about the journeys rather than the traction. I guess I don't particularly look like the stereotypical trainspotter though, so it isn't difficult to keep the hobby on the down-low, if you get my drift!

I was born in 1966 so cannot really recall steam engines running under BR and indeed I was an avid 'spotter from the mid 1970's until September 1984 when my interested in railways pretty much ceased on heading to Uni. Having got back into railways some six years a go I now have little or no interest in what runs on the network as I find it all rather boring However when our children were young we would make the odd visit to a preserved railway with my Dad and my main interest now is steam. I would perhaps consider to going to a SVR diesel gala for old times sake but it's not really something that either my Dad, friends or family are into and I'm worried that I'd be alone with a bunch of freaks . Perhaps I'm being rather harsh with that last statement but I already see a few odd bods at steam gala's when I'm out with my family.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That was sort of what I meant when I say the image of enthusiasts has improved in the last 10-15 years: in the mid 1990s quite a large chunk of the enthusiast fraternity could be described as "odd bods", whereas now that chunk is smaller. Greater acceptance of diversity among millennials is a factor in that, along with increased self-awareness of younger enthusiasts, possibly a positive impact of social media. Enthusiasts in their late teens and early twenties are far more "street-savvy" than I was at that age.

Apologies for the continued off-topic talk. Bringing us back, I really don't like 450s!

 

[Springs Branch]

Back in the day, when waiting for my train, I'd let out a groan of disappointment whenever a Cravens Class 105 appeared.

But that was long before I'd scraped the bottom of the barrel travelling on a Merseyrail Pacer.

 

[furnessvale]

Back in the day, when waiting for my train, I'd let out a groan of disappointment whenever a Cravens Class 105 appeared.

But that was long before I'd scraped the bottom of the barrel travelling on a Merseyrail Pacer.

When DMUs first appeared they were so new and exciting we didn't call them DMUs, they were "Diesel Observation Cars" and we all scrambled to sit behind the driver in the observation section.

 

[6Gman]

But surely the Flying Scotsman is just another of whatever class it is. No better or worse than any of the others if you take away all the romantic wibble

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that 60103 was one of the poorer A3s. Which might explain why it spent a lot of its later years at Grantham rather than Kings Cross.

 

[Whistler40145]

Class 142s, especially ones with Bus seats.

153s because I think they're cramped and rather hot in the summer.

Class 66/67, I just can't find anything appealing about them.

Why anyone doesn't like 442s, I don't know, being a northerner, I haven't had many journeys on them, but found them comfortable and speed suitable to their associated lines of operation.

 

[BurtonM]

-142s that don't have bus seats. The ATN ones are okay but rarely show up round me, but I hate Merseyrtavel ones.
-Ex-Central 150s - manky interiors and you can't actually fit a bike in the "cycle storage" properly.
-185s
-any stock with tip-up seats in the cycle storage (can you tell I'm a cyclist)
-Voyagers
-Electrostars with the bad seats and no tables.

No comment on 153s as they're a novelty to me (never got to ride one going solo yet).
144s are acceptable but I rarely have to use them and when I do it's only for short hops.
Pendos are OK but I'd prefer to have 91+Mk4 (never got to use one living in Manchester).
I like 158s (actively seek out EMT services for the Hope Valley, failing that a 170 will do as they're actually comfy).

 

[NoMorePacers]

Being from Hull, I've hardly ever seen an electric train, a voyager and even a HST (Yes, they do come to Hull but only once a day and at nothing near a sensible time (In my opinion, the service should really run at peak times, not 8 o'clock in the evening, but it's not up to an 11 year old to decide that)). I take electric trains as a massive novelty and I have never been on one before so I can't say what they're like. In terms of trains I hate though the train I hate most are Northern 158's. They are in an appalling state and they are used on all Northern services out of Hull. I tell you now, for whatever reason, you end up at Hull station, I GUARANTEE you that there will always be a stinking filthy 158 in one of the platforms. ALWAYS. I would have a pacer over a 158, any day.

 

[222ben]

Being from Hull, I've hardly ever seen an electric train, a voyager and even a HST (Yes, they do come to Hull but only once a day and at nothing near a sensible time (In my opinion, the service should really run at peak times, not 8 o'clock in the evening, but it's not up to an 11 year old to decide that)). I take electric trains as a massive novelty and I have never been on one before so I can't say what they're like. In terms of trains I hate though the train I hate most are Northern 158's. They are in an appalling state and they are used on all Northern services out of Hull. I tell you now, for whatever reason, you end up at Hull station, I GUARANTEE you that there will always be a stinking filthy 158 in one of the platforms. ALWAYS. I would have a pacer over a 158, any day.

Why is a 158 your least favourite. And i'm guessing you hate 158's even more than Pacers, guessing that your username is NoMorePacers?

 

[class 9]

333's - can't stand them

Oh and 220/221's!

Can't see a problem with the 333s, decent driving cab and the interiors are alright.

 

[Whistler40145]

I don't get why someone likes Pacers over Class 158s?

Had many 158s, especially Blackpool North to York and I'd certainly not want a 142 or even a 150 for that distance.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I don't get why someone likes Pacers over Class 158s?

Had many 158s, especially Blackpool North to York and I'd certainly not want a 142 or even a 150 for that distance.

On a stopping Hull-York or Hull-Bridlington service, 158s are practically wasted. On a Sheffield-Scarborough service, maybe but not a short-distance stopping service.

 

[Whistler40145]

Not having a dig at you young man, I meant quality of ride and comfort of seating.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Not having a dig at you young man, I meant quality of ride and comfort of seating.

In that respect, Pacers score -100 out of 10.

 

[Whistler40145]

Anyway, end of subject, give me a FTPE 185 any day.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Yes..

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can't see a problem with the 333s, decent driving cab and the interiors are alright.

The seats could do with reupholstering, or at the very least a deep clean. The headrests are caked with what I hope is hair product residues! I can't imagine them being anyone's least favourite traction though, unless familiarity has bred contempt!

 

[turntablist]

The seats could do with reupholstering, or at the very least a deep clean. The headrests are caked with what I hope is hair product residues! I can't imagine them being anyone's least favourite traction though, unless familiarity has bred contempt!

I dont mind the 333's ive used them a lot over the years, certainly miles better than the 308's they replaced, and also loads better than the dmu's im forced to use on the calder valley line, i also like the 321's and 322's that have been appearing around the aire/wharfe valley's

 

[Mark62]

Obviously pacers, 150, 153, 156, 158, voyagers, meridians and no doubt the new Hitachii east coast electrics will join my list when then start to run. Why? Because they will the grossly inferior comfort wide when compared to HST and Mark 4 stock. On the last mock up I saw there were 20 seats in a carriage. Half of them had absolutely no view of the outside world as there weren't any Windows whatsoever.
We run awful sprinters over some of the most beautiful lines in the world and passengers are totally unable to see out of the Windows. Settle and Carlise and all of the Scottish highland lines have noisy unfriendly sprinters.
Arrival have refused to roster any of their new "scenic" stock for the Settle and Carlise run hen they take over, much to the dismay of local groups in the area.
The U.K. Can be truly proud of having some of the most wonderful scenery in the world and just about the worst trains on the world that are totally unfit for the job.
At least I was able to travel on the lines many years ago in proper rolling stock. What a disgrace that carriages built 50 years ago are far superior to anything built post privatisation.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

142 Pacers get my vote.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Any kind of deziro, 220/221, 170. Not a huge fam of scotrails 156s but others are ok.

 

[DarloRich]

yep , still a Voyager

 

[nw1]

it's going to have to be the pacers and voyagers for me!
I always try to avoid voyagers at all cost!

Voyagers are fine when they're not overcrowded but very cramped when they're overcrowded.

Even though it takes me an extra hour to travel north from Southampton, I always avoid the through Bournemouth-Manchesters between Oxford and Birmingham, either by jumping ship to a Reading starter or putting up with it until Banbury and getting a Chiltern. The ones which start/terminate at Reading, however, are much better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm going to be controversial - Pacers aren't part of my day-to-day railway, so when I do get one it's a bit of a novelty to me. So I don't hate them.

I'd go along with that. They've now got to the stage of their life where they have the "novelty with age" factor and they look different to everything else on the railway.

TOCs which have a random mixture of Pacers, 150s, 153s, 156s, 158s and 170s all working in multiple gives interesting variety.

But as a caveat, I don't rely on pacers for regular travel - or indeed any travel these days - so probably not qualified to say much about them. There are probably various classes of DB EMU I have used more in the last 10 years. Indeed, I can't remember when I last used a Pacer. Possibly between Manchester and Edale circa 2000, not long after that route was a mix of Pacers and 101s!

Answering the original question, probably Pendolinos and Voyagers are the most cramped, though both are fine when they're not too crowded. Best contemporary units that I regularly use are probably 444s, 350s and 158s. CIGs were great in their day but best not go there

 

[BurtonM]

Got unlucky and ended up on a 142 doing a Manchester-Leeds over the Calder Valley on Saturday morning.
The difference to a 158 is night and day.

 

[The Ham]

I think that any train which is too small for the number of people it has to carry (which generally means a lot of services run by Voyagers and Pacers fall into that camp), however it can also mean that 444's can be seen as bad trains. The more prevalent the problem is the more that train type is hated.