Do the general public care about Pacers?

[DarloRich]

I don't disagree that a good proportion of passengers probably dislike 'old, draughty, noisy etc' trains. The issue I have is that the very same could be said of a Class 150, especially a /1 with low back, 2+3 seating, rattling doors, constant noise and vibration, and exactly the same issues with draughts and hit & miss heating provision. How many of these people demanding Pacers be cut up are also campaigning for a Sprinter cull at the same time? Do we have politicians shouting about them and the DfT banning them from franchises? Errr no, in fact more will be arriving from GWR and they'll all be fitted with brand new bogs to give them another decade or so of life. Hence, I'm fairly convinced that the railway knowlege of many of those leading this 'campaign' extends no further than a vague grasp of what a Pacer is.

I am happy to agree but at least the 150 looks like a train! The pacer looks like a bus on rails and that makes an east target.

 

[devinier]

I recently travelled from Sheffield to on a Pacer.
To be honest it wasn't that bad. Most people only went a couple of stops and seemed oblivious as to what type of train it was.
My complaint wasn't that it was cold - it was burning my leg on the heater !
I think most general public using Northern Pacers will think that all the old trains (150/153/155/156) are Pacers, as well as actual Pacers, and they will be expecting a lot more new trains than they will actually see...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am happy to agree but at least the 150 looks like a train!

Not only do the 150s look like trains, they ride like trains. They're not brilliant, but at least they have new-fangled things like bogies and suspension.

There's nowt wrong with a 150 that a deep clean and some new seats wouldn't solve, IMHO.

 

[rebmcr]

There's nowt wrong with a 150 that a deep clean and some new seats wouldn't solve, IMHO.

Agreed.

 

[156443]

The other problem, which the general public definitely can't miss, is the screetch on the Crimple Valley Viaduct curve on the Harrogate line. It's horrendous.

Ditto for those in the north east with the deafening screeching on the curve just before High Level Bridge when approaching Newcastle from Gateshead

 

[Welly]

^^^
And the squealing when entering or leaving Platform 5 at Lincoln!

 

[47802]

I don't disagree that a good proportion of passengers probably dislike 'old, draughty, noisy etc' trains. The issue I have is that the very same could be said of a Class 150, especially a /1 with low back, 2+3 seating, rattling doors, constant noise and vibration, and exactly the same issues with draughts and hit & miss heating provision. How many of these people demanding Pacers be cut up are also campaigning for a Sprinter cull at the same time? Do we have politicians shouting about them and the DfT banning them from franchises? Errr no, in fact more will be arriving from GWR and they'll all be fitted with brand new bogs to give them another decade or so of life. Hence, I'm fairly convinced that the railway knowlege of many of those leading this 'campaign' extends no further than a vague grasp of what a Pacer is.


?

Ideally there would have been additional new build over bringing more 150's in however that was probably a bit too much to ask

150's no they are not brilliant, but they are a bogied, double glazed, heavy duty train and I suspect in an crash you would want to be in a 150 rather than a Pacer.

 

[alxndr]

The first time I encountered a Pacer I'd heard about them, but didn't know them by sight. Within my short 3 minute journey I quickly decided that it was a terrible bus thing, perhaps worse than an actual bus. I then looked it up, and it all made sense.

My partner has no interest in trains or railways whatsoever, and on her first experience of one she wasn't convinced it was entirely safe to be going at the speeds it did due to the noise, large gap beneath the doors, and rattling. I'm almost certain that given the choice she would avoid using one (she once asked me if I knew whether or not the next train would be one of "those bus-trains" again), and she's a member of the "general public".

 

[TH172341]

Well having sampled a 144, and then a 150 over the same piece of track today on the Harrogate line, I can safely say the 150 was far better. The 144 internally was a bit smarter, however the ride quality and noise is inferior - worse part was branching off the ECML just north of York to go down the Harrogate line. The lateral movement over the points was painful to say the least.

The 150 on the return was far better - ride quality very smooth; certainly on a par with the 172s I use frequently. Interior wise though the 150s need ripping out, and a Renatus style project applied, or something like the 144 Evolution refurb. If that was done they'd be perfect for some of the rural/suburban lines in the years to come. Having ridden 150s for years down in the West Mids there was never any major problem with them, bar the interior style.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Not only do the 150s look like trains, they ride like trains. They're not brilliant, but at least they have new-fangled things like bogies and suspension.

There's nowt wrong with a 150 that a deep clean and some new seats wouldn't solve, IMHO.

Yaw dampers would have been nice - they can be a bit floaty at times but that's about the only complaint I've ever had about them mechanically.

 

[RobShipway]

I went on 141 103 a few years back at the Weardale Railway and the ride was okay at 30mph which it was doing. However, okay at 30mph is not travelling too good at 60, 70 or the top speed of 75mph.

 

[Parallel]

When I was at Cardiff Central at platform 6 waiting with a friend who has no interest in trains, a pair of pacers (1x142 and 1x143) squealed in heading to Penarth on platform 7 and she was like "That sound is HORRIBLE!"

I've also been on a GWR (or FGW then) 143 to Barnsaple with my mum and she said it was a bit of a scary ride and it felt like we were staying on the track by pure chance.

In terms of the front/end of the train, I think that does make an impression. My friend from Rugby visited (Obviously he gets a lot of Pendolinos and Class 350s) and when a 150/1 rattled in to the platform, he laughed!

I don't mind Pacers generally. They do the job and get people from A to B.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the name of the tight radius junction near to Navigation Road station that the Manchester to Chester Pacer negotiates to a cacophony of sound.

 

[Andyh82]

I'm sure the general public can recognise a pacer if it's a bus seats one.

A 144 with high back seats may get confused as not being a pacer.

Possibly not from what it looks like when it approaches, which might be why passengers don't reposition themselves to board an attached better unit, plus they might not have even noticed the other unit was the same service considering the lack of corridor connection.

 

[pemma]

What is the name of the tight radius junction near to Navigation Road station that the Manchester to Chester Pacer negotiates to a cacophony of sound.

It's the section between Deansgate Junction and Skelton Junction. Even the 150s squeal a little on that section.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm sure the general public can recognise a pacer if it's a bus seats one.

A 144 with high back seats may get confused as not being a pacer.

Possibly not from what it looks like when it approaches, which might be why passengers don't reposition themselves to board an attached better unit, plus they might not have even noticed the other unit was the same service considering the lack of corridor connection.

I've seen plenty of folk at Huddersfield heading to Slaithwaite or Marsden or beyond asking the guard "Why can't we go in the nice carriages?" as said guard sheperds them past the 156 onto the Merseytravel 142!

The guard will then explain why, only to be told "but I'm not going to Slaithwaite or Marsden so it doesn't matter if I'm not at the platform" or "Can't the driver stop further forwards?" :roll:

 

[lyndhurst25]

I am still sure most of the rail commuters in Carnforth suffer from Tinitus due to this very reason.

I once saw a small boy on the platform at Carnforth put his hands over his ears and start crying as a Pacer squeeled past.

 

[backontrack]

Class 142s - SCRAP THEM. They are pieces of junk not fit for today's railways.

Class 143/4s - these have years left in them, and the 144s could all become 144es. But it may just be more worthwhile to bring in new trains. The big difference between these and the 142s is the seating. All trains need some form of table, and definitely not bus seats with the metal rail on the top.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think the average member of the public (they used to be called normal when I was a spotter) did not care too much at one time provided they could get a seat. Once the politicians started playing games and promising, the public perception probably got raised.

 

[Ianigsy]

Flicking through Stuart Maconie's new book about the North at play, I noticed that in the first chapter he refers to a "1970s Sprinter", so goodness knows how old he thinks Pacers are...

 

[notlob.divad]

All trains need some form of table, and definitely not bus seats with the metal rail on the top.

Currently sat on a 319. These are our 'new' trains, and perfectly adequate they are, compared to what we used to have. Just wondering if you could direct me to the table.

 

[DarloRich]

I think the average member of the public (they used to be called normal when I was a spotter) did not care too much at one time provided they could get a seat. Once the politicians started playing games and promising, the public perception probably got raised.

People may not know what a pacer is. They know what one of those bloody awful bus trains is. They knew that even before the politcos started complaining and in the north east there have been grumbles about them since day 1

 

[samuelmorris]

Class 142s - SCRAP THEM. They are pieces of junk not fit for today's railways.

Class 143/4s - these have years left in them, and the 144s could all become 144es. But it may just be more worthwhile to bring in new trains. The big difference between these and the 142s is the seating. All trains need some form of table, and definitely not bus seats with the metal rail on the top.

Scrapping one class and not the other just because they currently have different seats fitted is quite an odd suggestion. I would have thought it really comes down to accessibility, not just PRM-TSI but the issue of door locations, spacing etc. 142s likely to be irrelevant due to the lack of plans to get them PRM-TSI compliant (though I still suspect there may be a reprieve granted to prevent the cancellation of services in their final months).

 

[Mordac]

Scrapping one class and not the other just because they currently have different seats fitted is quite an odd suggestion. I would have thought it really comes down to accessibility, not just PRM-TSI but the issue of door locations, spacing etc. 142s likely to be irrelevant due to the lack of plans to get them PRM-TSI compliant (though I still suspect there may be a reprieve granted to prevent the cancellation of services in their final months).

The 143-4 have an Alexander body as opposed to a Leyland body in the 142. That apparently makes some different as the former is supposed to be better quality. I've never been on a 143-4 so I don't know how different that is to riding quality personally. Of course, the accessibility issues apply across the board though.

 

[Haydn1971]

Ride is very similar from my experiences but then I'm more used to the 143/144 Pacers which are still awful... Almost like being on a cheap Manchester tram for intercity journeys - fun the first few time as you are stunned by the environment at 70mph, but not after several weeks of them

 

[backontrack]

Currently sat on a 319. These are our 'new' trains, and perfectly adequate they are, compared to what we used to have. Just wondering if you could direct me to the table.

That's a matter of personal taste. I still think that some kind of table is necessary.

Scrapping one class and not the other just because they currently have different seats fitted is quite an odd suggestion. I would have thought it really comes down to accessibility, not just PRM-TSI but the issue of door locations, spacing etc. 142s likely to be irrelevant due to the lack of plans to get them PRM-TSI compliant (though I still suspect there may be a reprieve granted to prevent the cancellation of services in their final months).

It does come down to suitability as well, but generally I think that the 144s are a step up from the 142s - the seating makes quite a difference to me, though it's not the only difference - and ought to be retained if refurbishing them to 144e standards is not prohibitively expensive compared to the cost of entirely new rolling stock.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Angel Trains, as the lessee, have already made their position clear with regard to the Class 142 units,

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ride is very similar from my experiences but then I'm more used to the 143/144 Pacers which are still awful... Almost like being on a cheap Manchester tram for intercity journeys - fun the first few time as you are stunned by the environment at 70mph, but not after several weeks of them

This is true- the difference is the environment rather than the ride (though I personally prefer the Northern Spirit 142 seating), in particular the fact that on a 142 you can see that the cab wall has simply been bolted on, with scant regard to such things as window frames!

 

[TH172341]

Can't say the 144 I rode the other day was any better than a 142. Ride was equally awful. Seats were marginally better though than a 142.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's a matter of personal taste. I still think that some kind of table is necessary.

It does come down to suitability as well, but generally I think that the 144s are a step up from the 142s - the seating makes quite a difference to me, though it's not the only difference - and ought to be retained if refurbishing them to 144e standards is not prohibitively expensive compared to the cost of entirely new rolling stock.

With regard to 142s, what type of seating are ATW's fleet fitted with? It's not my part of the world and when I was last able to use such services (many moons ago!) I had only 143s, which had Richmond or similar seating similar to the GWR units and Northern's 144s. Are the 142s similarly fitted?