Er, according to the log it wasn't at a station. Anyway better to start another thread for discussion I would think.
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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Robertj21a
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I know there are many on this forum who say that Unions aren't bothered about public opinion because 'they're always anti-union anyway'. In many instances that's probably an accurate reflection of how the public/media react to what they believe are overpaid, militant, train/tube drivers. However, in this 12-car DOO scenario I honestly feel that a high proportion of the public would be very supportive of keeping the guard. Bob Crow would have recognised that, highlighted it to the media, and generally got a good reception from people with some influence. Instead, all I've seen is some poor quality Union comments that seem far too pre-occupied with profit or government issues. Improve the senior Union officials, or accept the inevitable.
Captain Chaos
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Didn't they very quickly then remove the on train staff once handover had taking place? Certainly don't remember seeing the On Train Hosts any more. Got told they made them redundant. Was that right?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I think Mr Horton's letter to staff this week shows how much GTR are prepared to negotiate on the matter.
In case you didn't read it, this is what he said:
I don't see how the RMT can do anything other than play hardball.
It has been deliberately designed so they have to play hardball, just as it has with junior doctors, barristers, solicitors, teachers...
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Well isn't it awfully convenient that Auntie May wants us out of the ECHR, because it "binds the hands of parliament".
The public will be in favour of guards until their train is cancelled because no guard is available.
I don't think most passengers would know whether there was a guard on their train or not.
Not sure I agree with the second part, but have no doubt the first bit is true for a significant number of people. However if they were involved in an incident, better informed on the safety role of guards etc they would be very quick to change their minds.
It's like any emergency service you might complain about the police using speed cameras, but if you need them following an incident you'll be very grateful to see them. My appreciation for the fire brigade increased significantly after the next door neighbour managed to set fire to several sheds, hedges etc and the resulting conflagration threatening our house.
The issue the unions suffer is that the media do not appear to be reporting the safety issues behind this dispute. Many people are tweeting in support of the strike but this is not reflected in the reporting I have seen.
Same happened when they removed Senior Conductors from the Brighton Expresses in favour of the 'enhanced service' of on board hosts, they were gone within 2 years and luckily there were conductors jobs at Brighton they could have.
Just trying to get in touch with control during normal working is a pain at times. During disruption they are already on the phone trying to get the service moving or making alternative arrangements with signallers and NR controllers. The last thing they want to do is to speak to 10 DOO drivers to inform them of what's going on.
Drivers SG the signaller and just get told to wait.
The GSM-R Berth Triggered broadcasts I've rarely heard and that's only because the signaller wants to speak to drivers immediately to talk them past a signal that's going to be broken for most of the day.
Where as on non-DOO services, guards are likely to have a phone with regular emails through the Tyrell system that can update passengers and even the driver accordingly during disruption. At least the passenger is getting value for money on their ticket with regular updates and a guard assisting them with connections and queries.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It sounds to me like that is a problem solvable by technology - on Hamburg's U-Bahn the control centre has been able to issue announcements to the trains from the control centre. That kind of facility could be tied to Tyrell.
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D1009
Established Member
In what way could they do anything other than play hardball, given that both RMT and ASLEF have agreed a policy of no extension of DCO and DOO working, full stop. What compromise position would it be possible to negotiate?
I think I have one.
*On board guard remains safety trained, with route knowledge, and still considered essential for the service.
*Doors in ordinary operation are moved to control of the driver, HOWEVER if the driver deems it necessary (light, equipment failure, or any other safety based reason) he can direct the the guard to revert to guard directed dispatch - be it on a stop by stop basis, or the whole service if the driver feels it is required.
*The guard can then use this extra time that he won't be routinely dispatching to make his presence more well known within the passenger area: Selling tickets, providing customer service, etc.
If its not about eventually making the on board staff redundant, I can't see any reason for the company to object to that.
I think you've summed it up perfectly, there was simply no other option for GTR unless they had decided to keep everything on Southern as it basically is now
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Captain Chaos
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Because they want to run trains with only a driver on board "during service disruption". Such a vague term. Literally anything could be construed as a disruption to service. Including but not limited to the resourcing of a replacement Guard due to sickness. Lack or rostered Guards... That being the most poignant one. With no need to run with them, why pay one overtime to be on it? What's that? Customer service? The train is running. What more do you want?!
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
There are plenty of compromise positions, including retaining the guards' safety critical role (as happens with the onboard managers on HS1), the simple fact of the matter is that GTR want rid of the guards.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are compromise positions, but one should question why GTR are attempting to change something that isn't broken.
It isn't the RMT and ASLEF who are trying to sack staff.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Under the circumstances, a little insensitive to post on the DOO thread.
LBSCR Times
Member
No, there is already a clear agreement between ASLEF and Southern (now GTR) management as to how DOO can be operated during disruption.
Not really, those of us on the job know it's something that could happen and it's about the worst thing you can have to deal with - as a guard finding your mate dead or incapacitated at the front and having to act is the worst thing possible but it's a reality. Please don't forget we spend more time with each other than our families as often as not. It's part of the reason we are so passionate about this issue. I was gutted to hear about it last night.
On a completely different note, I love this tweet, it's made it on to BBC news:
https://mobile.twitter.com/adtrainz/status/724843951136628736/photo/1
I've still no explanation as to how SWT have got it so wrong (and how they're getting away with god forbid, actually promoting a grade the government wants rid of!) - on the one hand we have 'essential member of staff we wouldn't be without'; on the other we have 'not worth having, easily downgraded, good to have in a reduced form but not worth worrying about if not' not to mention 'we employ absolute legends' as opposed to 'we're going to take your car park permits off you because you don't want us to mess you about'.
Having met some of Stagecoach's safety team I'm inclined to believe their position is entirely genuine as well.
On a completely different note, I love this tweet, it's made it on to BBC news:
https://mobile.twitter.com/adtrainz/status/724843951136628736/photo/1
I've still no explanation as to how SWT have got it so wrong (and how they're getting away with god forbid, actually promoting a grade the government wants rid of!) - on the one hand we have 'essential member of staff we wouldn't be without'; on the other we have 'not worth having, easily downgraded, good to have in a reduced form but not worth worrying about if not' not to mention 'we employ absolute legends' as opposed to 'we're going to take your car park permits off you because you don't want us to mess you about'.
Having met some of Stagecoach's safety team I'm inclined to believe their position is entirely genuine as well.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Even away from this issue, the professionalism of Stagecoach shines over the lack thereof from Govia.
They've said no redundancies, serious future concerns, are understandable and a lot more negotiations will be needed about that, remember the Scotrail SPT on train staff have been there continuously for about 30 years now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How can you know if they would have dealt with this current situation any better ? The last time in 1997!they just withdrew all their DOO plans which I would interpret more as weakness/inexperience than professionalism plus they haven't always had the best of employee relations at all their bus companies over the years
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Except they will be making all the guards redundant. Read what Horton has said to staff again.
The letter from the company says every one of them is being made redundant before the transfer.
Apparently job losses and redundancy isn't the same thing.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Does it say they will be made redundant, or does it say they are at risk of redundancy? The latter tends to originate from a legally required statement of intent and doesn't necessarily mean all or even most actually will be laid off.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Remember that people are not made redundant, jobs are. If GTR no longer have guards then all the guards jobs have been made redundant. GTR may promise to transfer the people into another job, and they may even follow through with their promise, but the guards have still been made redundant. And there will still be implications for continuity of service, employee benefits, pensions, etc.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
[NB Mod Note: Post moved from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129815 ]
when TPE driver Dave Graham was taken ill at the controls the initial actions of the conductor and of the off duty nurses on board the train may well have made the difference in getting him seen to (and was shown on BBC's Helicopter Heroes) swiftly.
The question has to be asked wether having a second member of train crew on board may have made a difference with the C2C incident, and could the driver have been seen to earlier and in turn may have saved his life?
It's not pleasant losing any loved one at any time, it just seems an awful thought that he died alone and isolated. My thoughts go out to his family at this tragic time
when TPE driver Dave Graham was taken ill at the controls the initial actions of the conductor and of the off duty nurses on board the train may well have made the difference in getting him seen to (and was shown on BBC's Helicopter Heroes) swiftly.
The question has to be asked wether having a second member of train crew on board may have made a difference with the C2C incident, and could the driver have been seen to earlier and in turn may have saved his life?
It's not pleasant losing any loved one at any time, it just seems an awful thought that he died alone and isolated. My thoughts go out to his family at this tragic time
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mbreckers
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Well, on a service with a conductor or TE, most would have the feeling that something was out of the ordinary, and tried to contact the driver. When they didnt get a response they would head up to the cab and be in a position to help. It may not have changed the outcome, but at the same time it might have.
Passengers on a DOO service would not have had no access to the cab, and may not have even known anything was wrong. (AFAIK there is no way to access the cab without a key)
In this case it required a driver from another service who happened to be going through the station to attend.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I am asking this out of curiosity for what you state above, but if an employer moves a member of staff from one part of their business to another part, they are still employees of the same company. It is the "continuity of service" statement that I ask you to further clarify and if possible, to cite any examples where what you state have actually occurred in the past.
LBSCR Times
Member
It doesn't have any implications if they are still in employment with GTR.
Its no different to other grades who have seen their jobs done away with.
And I've been displaced on numerous times too, and there has been no equal post that I could apply for.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
Exactly. Any out of course stop I straight onto the dog'n'bone with the driver to ascertain what the situation is, especially when it is obviously an emergency stop. If I get no response I'm straight away heading to the cab with hi vis and phone in hand just in case. Usually it's nothing, however there have been instances where I have had to go trackside either on behalf of, or in assistance to my driver. Fortunately I have never actually had an emergency such as a one under or derailment etc but at the same time I wouldn't want to be in that situation, I'd rather be trained equipped and prepared to be in that situation. After all, when the proverbial flies, I'm the one in the uniform and the punters will be turning to me to control and man the situation
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