Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HLE]

This is the letter (has been posted before)

According their letter (dated 22 April):

"Taking strike action places you in breach of your contract of employment. You are not entitled to pick and choose the shifts that you do work. Please understand that the company is entitled to refuse to accept part performance of any week (Sunday-Saturday) in which you do not work normally and is entitled to refuse to pay you anything for any week in which you do not work normally for that entire week.
The RMT has deliberately timed each strike to straddle two days, which is plainly designed to ensure that each single strike causes disruption to the company, its business and to our customers across two days. GTR will therefore be deducting two days' average base salary for each shift in which you participate in strike action, on account of your taking industrial action, without prejudice to GTR's rights generally and in particular to pay nothing at all for any week in which you take strike action."
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The strike was 24 hours, so only one shift, by each shift, was affected. So in that 24 hour period, only an average of about 8.5 hours was not worked by each member rostered to work over that 24 hour period

And the numbers, while different for each depot. Brighton, of about 110, 10 went in (some under duress)

In response to the 'pick and choose your shifts' my response would be that's it's my legal right to strike.

Can't believe they actually did it. I hope the employment lawyers are looking at this as I type.

If it is found to illegal, then everyone needs to shout from the rooftops about it.

How I would love to meet Horton.

 

[FordFocus]

Congratulations Southern and Horton. Looks like they'll be back in their beloved High Court for illegal deduction of wages.

 

[sarahj]

We are almost back to Taff Vale times with this.

 

[PakRail]

Go on strike for one shift and lose two shifts payment. Very shifty territory GTR are wading in. I am praying the RMT are able to fight this for the sake of our conductors who have bills to pay and families to feed. They have already decided to give £80 to all members who went on strike to support them which is good.

 

[tony6499]

You'd think that GTR/Southern took sound legal advice before they made the pay deductions otherwise they have laid themselves wide open to legal action by each and every member of staff involved for illegal wage deduction as well as compensation etc

 

[JamesTT]

Now do you understand why no one trusts GTR?

Well trust issues aside they are just bloody stupid to contradict themselves within their own consultation document

 

[sarahj]

You'd think that GTR/Southern took sound legal advice before they made the pay deductions otherwise they have laid themselves wide open to legal action by each and every member of staff involved for illegal wage deduction as well as compensation etc

Perhaps they think they can do what they want since they are doing the gov's bidding. (note a one that keeps doing u-turns)

 

[Secrettraindri]

That is a sensible question and one I have considered myself. I can only assume that:

1. The nature of services have changed - normal trains are much longer than ever before
   
2. The nature of the timetable has changed - more trains run more often and the pressure on the timetable is intense
   
3. The number of passengers carried has changed - passenger levels have rocketed in recent years. What was acceptable for a quiet system may not be for a busy one
   
4. The viability of the rail network has changed - perhaps at the time of the first DDO agreements the choice was DDO or no railway so the unions took the descion to protect what they could (It is worth noting the first DDO agreements took years to come in to place)
   
5. The nature of liability has changed - we live in a much more litigious world and staff are held to account for their actions ( see Merseyrail)

I will point out i have no interest in this issue other than as a passenger. I have had experience of both sides of the fence, been through reorgs in different industries, have been made redundant and have made people redundant! Any comments are based on real world practicalities and personal experiences.

DarloRich, thank you for your post. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head. To anyone who wonders how ASLEF can defend the expansion of something they agreed to THIRTY years ago, and how the public can be on side if we are objecting to something that already happens, here is your answer. Circumstances CHANGE. There are more passengers, so there are longer trains. Why shouldn't dispatch change accordingly? We are only asking for appropriate procedures. Yes, a 4 car in the middle of the day when 3 men and a dog get on and off, DOO dispatch is probably fine. Still not helpful when you consider anti social behaviour, ticketless travel, people needing help getting on and off, but dispatch probably fine. But 12 car trains when there is a sea of bodies, not all of whom are getting on, glued to phones, earphones in, sunlight shining straight in your camera - and the driver is in the hot seat with a difficult call to make.

 

[radamfi]

Given the controversial nature of the plans and the unionised nature of the industry the management would have fully expected strikes. So I don't see what the staff can do that will be a surprise to the management/government.

 

[infobleep]

No problem at staffed stations surely?

Unfortunately not all step free access stations are staffed. Although not served by Southern, Dorking West springs to mind as one such place. I'm sure Southern have others.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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When we went to Australia last year I noticed all the suburban trains in Adelaide & Melbourne were DOO. Speedy sticks would feel happy there. Disabled passengers wait by the first door. The driver gets out puts down a ramp,very efficiently, & in they pop. Telling him their exit station. Works brilliantly. I asked several drivers what they thought of it & all took if for granted. One said he enjoyed helping. It gave him a chance to talk briefly to someone & in any case his daughter was disabled & it was good that his mates would help her when she got bigger. Driver A might enjoy meeting speedy sticks & helping him.,you never know!

Well what we should to do is rebuild all our existing stock at huge expensive so that their is space for the disabled people right by the drivers door.

Either that or the driver has to walk the length of the platform and delay the train.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[tony6499]

Perhaps they think they can do what they want since they are doing the gov's bidding. (note a one that keeps doing u-turns)

A sniff of public anger and the brakes will be screeching as they perform a handbrake turn.

I hope the RMT are at the courts in the morning in the meantime though.

 

[Minstral25]

Does anyone now why on strike days all the stations on the East Grinstead line are able to have trains calling at their stations, whereas along the Redhill route Coulsdon South, Merstham, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley are effectively closed (Yes I know 3 stations have a very limited off-peak service but effectively it is no service especially for the thousands of commuters from these stations)

Also why did they send East Grinstead trains to London Bridge not their normal service to Victoria but picked up the LBG to Horsham timings to East Croydon.

 

[infobleep]

An email? Seriously?

That's a disgrace. I've been in a position where I've had to give staff bad news about their jobs (making posts redundant and/or not renewing fixed term contracts) and if I tried to do it by email I think HR would fire me! And rightly so!

Of course it won't make much difference but has the RMT considered setting up an online petition to allow your passengers to show their support?

This is a good idea so it probably won't happen.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[DelayRepay]

Actually, has the RMT got a strike fund? I am pretty sure guards and drivers on other TOCs would contribute as would some members of the public. This would allow some of the stolen wages to be reimbursed and help the Southern guards continue their fight.

I say it again - good luck sarahj and colleagues.

 

[Dave1987]

Anyone seen the OBS consultation document it seems to say there are 470 guards and 87 revenue staff with Southern. That the target is to have 255 OBS and 194 conductors, that is a target of 108 less jobs. Then later it goes on to say there won't be need for redundancies as there will be the same number of onboard staff. :?

You see James, when you start to look at the detail and get rid of the PR spin you see what their real aim is. They have already confirmed that an OBS will not be on every train that currently has a guard.
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Well trust issues aside they are just bloody stupid to contradict themselves within their own consultation document

But do you now see why no one believes them?

 

[Goldfish62]

Those on here that think that Stagecoach are somehow anti-DOO/DCO should read the latest edition of Passenger Transport on VTEC's (90% Stagecoach-owned) plans for DCO introduction on the IEPs:

1. Buy the drivers' agreement with a financial sweetener
2. Cover guards during any strike action with "staff brought in from elsewhere"

All classic Stagecoach stuff if anyone has followed the history of this ruthless company.

 

[JamesTT]

You see James, when you start to look at the detail and get rid of the PR spin you see what their real aim is. They have already confirmed that an OBS will not be on every train that currently has a guard.
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But do you now see why no one believes them?

I have understood why but past examples are different. I would still maintain if the OBS staff cost £X but make £Xplus they won't get rid of all of them

 

[Robertj21a]

Those on here that think that Stagecoach are somehow anti-DOO/DCO should read the latest edition of Passenger Transport on VTEC's (90% Stagecoach-owned) plans for DCO introduction on the IEPs:

1. Buy the drivers' agreement with a financial sweetener
2. Cover guards during any strike action with "staff brought in from elsewhere"

All classic Stagecoach stuff if anyone has followed the history of this ruthless company.

Not sure why you are going rather crazy with comments like '....this ruthless company'. Stagecoach is one of the best managed and most respected companies in the UK. As with most successful operators, I'm sure that they won't please everybody all of the time but I have no idea why you would call them ruthless - more accurate, perhaps, to say professional and highly efficient.

 

[JamesTT]

You see James, when you start to look at the detail and get rid of the PR spin you see what their real aim is. They have already confirmed that an OBS will not be on every train that currently has a guard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But do you now see why no one believes them?

I have understood why but past examples are different. I would still maintain if the OBS staff cost £X but make £Xplus they won't get rid of all of them

 

[D1009]

DarloRich, thank you for your post. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head. To anyone who wonders how ASLEF can defend the expansion of something they agreed to THIRTY years ago, and how the public can be on side if we are objecting to something that already happens, here is your answer. Circumstances CHANGE. There are more passengers, so there are longer trains. Why shouldn't dispatch change accordingly? We are only asking for appropriate procedures. Yes, a 4 car in the middle of the day when 3 men and a dog get on and off, DOO dispatch is probably fine. Still not helpful when you consider anti social behaviour, ticketless travel, people needing help getting on and off, but dispatch probably fine. But 12 car trains when there is a sea of bodies, not all of whom are getting on, glued to phones, earphones in, sunlight shining straight in your camera - and the driver is in the hot seat with a difficult call to make.

Sorry to bring facts into these rants, but as far as I am aware trains are no longer now than they were in the days of slam door stock when passengers were expected to look after their own safety, and I doubt the number of passengers per coach has changed very much.

 

[Domh245]

Sorry to bring facts into these rants, but as far as I am aware trains are no longer now than they were in the days of slam door stock when passengers were expected to look after their own safety, and I doubt the number of passengers per coach has changed very much.

As far as I know, Slam Doors were always operated with a guard though. If you look at lines where DOO was introduced (eg BedPan) passenger numbers were low (but have since risen) - that is the whole point. DOO is fine in principle for low passenger numbers, but for high passengers it makes very little sense.

 

[Mag_seven]

I've just returned from Europe where I saw many DOO services of long lengths leaving from crowded platforms with no dispatch staff - were all these trains that I saw "unsafe"?

 

[Squonk]

Sorry to bring facts into these rants, but as far as I am aware trains are no longer now than they were in the days of slam door stock when passengers were expected to look after their own safety, and I doubt the number of passengers per coach has changed very much.

You can't state something as "fact" and then be uncertain in the statement "as far as I am aware", make your mind up ,

Anyway, trains are no longer but there are more of the long ones now days, 10 cars , 12 cars, 4 cars are something of a rarity let alone 2 cars,
most of the platforms have been lengthened to accommodate the longer trains on routes that didn't previously need them all because there is a hell of a lot more passengers, and even that isn't enough sometimes,
Oh there is definitely more passengers and some .
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I've just returned from Europe where I saw many DOO services of long lengths leaving from crowded platforms with no dispatch staff - were all these trains that I saw "unsafe"?

probably.

 

[speedy_sticks]

I hope you booked all your journeys 24 hours in advance?

I've just returned from Europe where I saw many DOO services of long lengths leaving from crowded platforms with no dispatch staff - were all these trains that I saw "unsafe"?

 

[Agent_c]

Not sure why you are going rather crazy with comments like '....this ruthless company'. Stagecoach is one of the best managed and most respected companies in the UK. As with most successful operators, I'm sure that they won't please everybody all of the time but I have no idea why you would call them ruthless - more accurate, perhaps, to say professional and highly efficient.

Just because you're successful and best managed doesn't mean you're not ruthless.

In fact, if anything, that would be a warning sign that they are....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_Bus_War


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I've just returned from Europe where I saw many DOO services of long lengths leaving from crowded platforms with no dispatch staff - were all these trains that I saw "unsafe"?

Safety is not a binary state.

 

[Carlisle]

That is a sensible question and one I have considered myself. I can only assume that:

1. The nature of services have changed - normal trains are much longer than ever before
   
2. The nature of the timetable has changed - more trains run more often and the pressure on the timetable is intense
   
3. The number of passengers carried has changed - passenger levels have rocketed in recent years. What was acceptable for a quiet system may not be for a busy one
   
4. The viability of the rail network has changed - perhaps at the time of the first DDO agreements the choice was DDO or no railway so the unions took the descion to protect what they could (It is worth noting the first DDO agreements took years to come in to place)
   
5. The nature of liability has changed - we live in a much more litigious world and staff are held to account for their actions ( see Merseyrail)

Whilst your points are all valid I think you've missed a major difference ,this was simply that in those days when changes like this occurred up until the period when everyone knew division/ privatisation was coming BR had the luxury that the vast majority of its displaced staff genuinely believed they would be offered a suitable alternative job for as long as they wanted it ,there simply wasn't anything comparable to the mass cynicism surrounding today's OBS roles potential long term future

 

[XDM]

Amazingly Western Region management proposed & the local ASLEF LDC(local union branch) agreed DOO on the Slough Windsor branch in the late 1980's using slam door DMUs. The evidence is still there( or was 2 years ago) 2 or 3 signals facing down trains from the Slough bay. They could be set to red by platform staff if someone was half in & out of the train after the driver had been given the Right Away. They are about 20 yards from each other. Once the slammers were replaced by sliding door dmus(165's?) it became conventional DOO. It was kept very quiet. The drivers wanted the extra 7.5% & WR management wanted the kudos from being the second region to have DOO after Bedpan,the pioneer. As far as I know it was quite safe no one was injured.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Anyone seen the OBS consultation document it seems to say there are 470 guards and 87 revenue staff with Southern. That the target is to have 255 OBS and 194 conductors, that is a target of 108 less jobs. Then later it goes on to say there won't be need for redundancies as there will be the same number of onboard staff. :?

Is there a link to this document anywhere?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone now why on strike days all the stations on the East Grinstead line are able to have trains calling at their stations, whereas along the Redhill route Coulsdon South, Merstham, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley are effectively closed (Yes I know 3 stations have a very limited off-peak service but effectively it is no service especially for the thousands of commuters from these stations)

Also why did they send East Grinstead trains to London Bridge not their normal service to Victoria but picked up the LBG to Horsham timings to East Croydon.

My guess is that

East Grinstead isn't (yet) DOO so, in order to provide a service, Southern have used their limited number of guards working on strike days there rather than via Redhill. Trains can run DOO to Three Bridges via Redhill provided they only stop at East Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges so that is the service provided. Southern can't stop DOO trains (yet) at the smaller stations on the Redhill line.

The routes on which Southern can't but Thameslink can run DOO is a central factor in this dispute and that becomes even more inconsistent when 700s take over from Southern's units to East Grinstead, Littlehampton and Horsham.

A full metro service is running so Southern need to use existing mainline paths to provide the (outer) services running during the strike. As the Redhill / Three Bridges and Brighton services are running from Victoria, it makes sense for the East Grinstead trains to run from London Bridge. As the 'Horsham path' is already timetabled from London Bridge, the East Grinstead services use that.

Finally, there are somewhat easier bus links between Redhill line stations than there are between East Grinstead line stations.

 

[Robertj21a]

Just because you're successful and best managed doesn't mean you're not ruthless.

In fact, if anything, that would be a warning sign that they are....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_Bus_War


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.

Well done, you managed to unearth one item - from more than 20 years ago.