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Should We Leave the EU?

Do you believe the UK should stay in or leave the EU?

  • Stay in the EU

    Votes: 229 61.4%
  • Leave the EU

    Votes: 120 32.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 24 6.4%

  • Total voters
    373
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Barn

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I will agree to disagree on the depth of any military union. I think any move to towards an integrated/single EU army would be a mistake although deployment in a lose coalition seems normal to me. We often serve under other nations command as part of NATO. Why should a deployment under EU command be different?

We do so voluntarily on a mission-by-mission basis, and I think the command is vested in an allied country rather than the EU per se. I don't think I'd argue with that.

Also do we not already have a common defense policy in Europe. The NATO policy of an attack on one is exactly the same surely. Would an EU army not seek to remain a member of NATO? Even joined together as Team Europe we couldn't hope to take on, say, the Russians without US help. Why would the EU give up that protection?

Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta and Sweden have chosen not to be Nato members. That would make a pan-EU Nato membership difficult. The impression I get is that some countries see Nato as un-European and would dearly love to see it replaced for all non-Armageddon purposes.

But does the EHR legislation not specifically exclude some of these accountabilities in the event of war? Are the services not exempted from the legislation?

Why should women not serve in the front line if they can meet realistic and fair standards that apply equally to all?

The ECHR allows derogations in times of war (but really only for total war affecting the life of the European nation, not military operations as we understand them today). It is more the Charter of Fundamental Rights that I would be concerned about, not least because it is enforced by the ECJ rather than the ECtHR.

Women should be able to serve if they meet the standards required for an effective military. If an equality ruling suggests that they should be given unequal standards, or if standards are reduced generally to increase access to women, then that could lead to real dangers for military personnel. Put bluntly, if you're a soldier who has been injured in a dangerous location, you want your comrades to be able to carry you away.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Alternatively we leave and run the gauntlet of that same entity determined to make an example of us to ensure that no other electorates dare to spoil the master plan.

A bad situation all round.

If we left, I would be far more worried about what the British Conservative Government would do with its new, repatriated, powers than about what the EU will do!
 
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Mutant Lemming

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Would an EU army help pay for the UK (and France's) Nuclear Deterrent or would the burden of this fall on the two individual countries ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You say that, do you really think Brussels will eventually force us to ditch the Union Jack and Pound sterling?

In time I would be surprised if monetary union isn't on the agenda - it only takes an out of touch UK government (and we have had enough of them these past decades) to say yes to it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
"Greater Reich"

You see, I'm not really seeing how you can say your first sentence and then come out with that.
[.

...ok - United States of Germany then
 

DarloRich

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Women should be able to serve if they meet the standards required for an effective military. If an equality ruling suggests that they should be given unequal standards, or if standards are reduced generally to increase access to women, then that could lead to real dangers for military personnel. Put bluntly, if you're a soldier who has been injured in a dangerous location, you want your comrades to be able to carry you away.


but that seems to be the standard concern of the right wingers that X will be reduced to allow more Y's in. It doesn't really hold water. We are yet, despite the wibblings of the Mail or Sun, to see this wave of positive discrimination that will mean that jobs only go to women or black people.

As a recruiter i look to an equal process. If the winner is women shes wins by being the best, not by being a woman.
 

Harbornite

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We would then witness the true power of this fully armed and operational Tory government. ;)

As if a thousand left-wingers cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would an EU army help pay for the UK (and France's) Nuclear Deterrent or would the burden of this fall on the two individual countries ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In time I would be surprised if monetary union isn't on the agenda - it only takes an out of touch UK government (and we have had enough of them these past decades) to say yes to it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


...ok - United States of Germany then


Let it go about Germany, man! If not, you will go on the list!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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but that seems to be the standard concern of the right wingers that X will be reduced to allow more Y's in. It doesn't really hold water. We are yet, despite the wibblings of the Mail or Sun, to see this wave of positive discrimination that will mean that jobs only go to women or black people.

Noting your mention of The Sun and The Mail above, where do those two newspapers feature in a table of the best-selling daily newspapers?
 

Steveman

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Noting your mention of The Sun and The Mail above, where do those two newspapers feature in a table of the best-selling daily newspapers?

You need to remember though a "fact" that has been pointed out on here on an almost daily basis - the readership are mainly xenophobes, racists, little Englanders and generally stupid.
 

nuneatonmark

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I think that on whole the EU has been useful and good for the UK. However, that does not mean I think we should remain in the EU. If we stay in there will be a continued march towards expansion and greater 'integration'. Unfortunately no one in the EU appears to that learned the lessons of what has happened to Greece, Spain, Ireland and other such countries. Nor have they learned that all that allowing the eastern bloc countries in has propped up the UK and German economies with cheap available labour which further diminishes the countries these people come from. One of the reasons eastern Europe was glad to get away from the Soviet Union was that they wanted their own identity, something the EU is moving away from. This can also be seen in the rise of 'right' wing parties in Europe. The EU nearly broke apart a couple of years ago, only copious amounts of printing money stopped it. It will fail one day and fall apart, sooner than you think unless reformed which won't happen unless ironically the UK leaves, I think it's better we leave now even though in the short term it may be worse for us. It's better that way than when it all inevitably, like the British Empire, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia etc, falls apart. The only unions that have worked are unions such as the United Kingdom and the United States which have existed for far longer and have 'states' with much more in common with each other. We have little in common with Romania, Greece, Ukraine or Turkey.
 

DarloRich

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Noting your mention of The Sun and The Mail above, where do those two newspapers feature in a table of the best-selling daily newspapers?

at the top - but circulation is no indicator of accuracy!

You need to remember though a "fact" that has been pointed out on here on an almost daily basis - the readership are mainly xenophobes, racists, little Englanders and generally stupid.


Please show where I have said that.
 

DynamicSpirit

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You're right that I think that Westminster is 'high enough'. There are really two reasons for this:

First, I have a general tendency towards localism. I believe that mayors and councils are the most democratic structures that we have. I believe that localised decision-making allows people to feel closer to their representatives, have more visibility of decision-making and have more influence per capita over decisions.

It is not an absolute belief. Certain things like defence are clearly not local issues. I understand the anguish around 'postcode lotteries' in health spending. But generally, the lower the better.

Thanks for giving the rationale. FWIW I do agree with you that more local should be preferred wherever practical. I guess our disagreement in that regard is that I do see greater benefits in many situations in having common approaches. Too often, 'local' can end up as different authorities competing against each other in a way that does more harm than good (instances of Nimbyism being one obvious example).

I tend to feel that harmonisation tends to develop organically on the market when it is really useful (e.g. the ubiquity of USB sockets and the shape of USB plugs). I tend to think that harmonisation for harmonisation's sake tends to have an anti-innovative effect.

I would say it's more complex than that. I work in IT, and in that field I see many situations where harmonization has been very beneficial but also situations where harmonization would be beneficial but hasn't happened (a good example would be laptop battery shapes). The problem is that in order to happen 'naturally', harmonization doesn't merely need to be useful, it also needs dominant players in the industry to take the lead, often in the process, sacrificing some short term profits or accepting greater competition. Too often, that doesn't happen precisely because companies fear the greater competition etc. brought by harmonization, believing that they gain more by locking consumers into their own products. In those case, action by the authorities is likely to be highly beneficial (provided, obviously, it is done competently).

On my second point, in a way I think you're right. It is not entirely rational. It is that I feel British. I feel that my neighbours on these islands are my countrymen. I don't feel that we are a superior breed of human, but I do believe in a national culture. I do believe in a national psyche. I do believe that there is something that makes us British. I don't believe that it is exclusive to people born here - I think people can become British and it's a wonderful thing when they want to. I believe that our culture is a good one.

That is a very honest answer, and I think it's very reasonable too. In many ways I feel exactly the same way. There is something special and unique about the UK, which I feel proud to be a part of. (And I don't mean to denigrate other countries by saying that. I'm sure that almost every culture and country is unique and special in different ways). However, at the same time I also feel a part of humanity and that a loyalty to 'humanity' as a whole without regard to national borders is equally important - and I see no conflict between that and being British. Maybe, that's partly why I feel more at ease with the idea of significant governance coming from the EU. And of course, when I see that some problems can be better solved at a transnational or European level, the pragmatist in me says that that is more important than my emotional feelings of attachment to the UK. I'm going to hazard a guess that the difference between us here is simply a matter of degree rather than principle.

I'm still young but perhaps I am just old enough to feel like this. Perhaps the younger generation, who grew up with global media and internet access and smartphones from a young age feel connected to Europeans to a much greater extent. Perhaps borders and frontiers feel much more artificial to them.

I think that is true too. One of my concerns about Brexit - and indeed one of the reasons why I finally decided I was for 'in' is a fear that by leaving, we would be going in the opposite direction to the life that many younger people will expect, in which borders become less important and the ability to experience different countries and to move freely will become more important. And to that extent, a Brexit is likely to damage the ability of many people to experience the life that they want.

Incidentally, my partner is from Nepal (and for a significant period, we had terrible problems staying together because of immigration restrictions. Now long since solved, but that is a part of my life I definitely do not wish to live through again. I really think those who casually call for tighter controls on immigration do not realize what they are asking for, or what devastating effect it can have on many people's lives. I also work online, and most of my closest colleagues are in the USA, with a few scattered around other countries. This definitely gives a sense of a world in which borders are becoming less meaningful. I rather fear that what many on the Brexit side are for all practical purposes seeking - at least as far as borders is concerned - amounts to a return to a world that is divided, and simply not appropriate for the future.

I'm socially liberal and economically conservative. I voted for Blair in 2001 and 2005 for social reasons and voted Conservative in 2010 and 2015 for economic reasons. I won't tie my hands for the next election as Cameron isn't my favourite politician right now!

Ah sorry, I was mistaken about your politics. I rather doubt that 'Cameron' will be an option at the next election (not least because he's ruled himself out anyway!)
 

Senex

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That is a very honest answer, and I think it's very reasonable too. In many ways I feel exactly the same way. There is something special and unique about the UK, which I feel proud to be a part of. (And I don't mean to denigrate other countries by saying that. I'm sure that almost every culture and country is unique and special in different ways). However, at the same time I also feel a part of humanity and that a loyalty to 'humanity' as a whole without regard to national borders is equally important - and I see no conflict between that and being British. Maybe, that's partly why I feel more at ease with the idea of significant governance coming from the EU. And of course, when I see that some problems can be better solved at a transnational or European level, the pragmatist in me says that that is more important than my emotional feelings of attachment to the UK. I'm going to hazard a guess that the difference between us here is simply a matter of degree rather than principle.

Barn had written: "On my second point, in a way I think you're right. It is not entirely rational. It is that I feel British. I feel that my neighbours on these islands are my countrymen. I don't feel that we are a superior breed of human, but I do believe in a national culture. I do believe in a national psyche. I do believe that there is something that makes us British. I don't believe that it is exclusive to people born here - I think people can become British and it's a wonderful thing when they want to. I believe that our culture is a good one."

Both of you feel a commitment to "Britain" or the "United Kingdom" as one of the levels, as it were, of loyalty. I can certainly see the rationale there, but it is not one that I personally share. I see the UK as a state and not a nation, and a state in many ways just as artificial as, say, the post-WW1 Yugoslavia. These states do not survive a resurgence of feelings of national identity. Ireland wanted different arrangements quite early and most of it left the UK. Scotland has found its identity, and whilst many Scots are content to remain in a greatly-modified UK, others would like to leave. Wales seems to be moving, albeit more slowly, along the same road -- and even Cornwall has those who argue for the need for its differences from the rest of the UK to be properly acknowledged. The one part of the UK where it seems that the politicians wish to deny us our national identity is England. Yet for me my identity is local, then English, and then European -- I have no emotional feelings for the UK at all, even though logically I have to recognise that I am legally a citizen of it. I visit Scotland and Ireland with very great pleasure, but feel that I am visiting a foreign country (even if the language is English!) every bit as much as when visiting France or Germany. There is an English culture, a Scottish culture, an Irish culture, a common European culture, but just what is the British culture? Like Barn, I think that things should be dealt with at the lowest possible level (even though I have grave doubts about competence in those lower levels as they currently exist), but I think the hierarchy should be low level, regional level, national (not state) level, and then Europe, and I see no place for the imperial Westminster we have now and I feel no loyalty towards it. Now if it were to morph into an English parliament within a European federation ....
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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You need to remember though a "fact" that has been pointed out on here on an almost daily basis - the readership are mainly xenophobes, racists, little Englanders and generally stupid.

The people who buy The Sun and The Daily Mail continue to buy these newspapers in quantities making them the two best daily selling newspapers and I am sure that those charged with running the Daily Mirror and the Guardian would, on financial turnover terms and on advertising coverage, welcome any such people if it meant that their daily sales improved to the same level as the other two stated newspapers. As your flair for graphic description of those who read newspapers has been Damascenely revealed to all of us on this thread, I invite you to give your undoubted skill in wordcraft free rein to describe the readers of the Daily Mirror and The Guardian in a similar attributional fashion.

Incidentally, I note that you put the word fact in parenthesis in your quote above and I ask you to clarify why you did that. Is it the case that some facts are facts only if they tally with the beliefs of certain people?
 

Welly

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A question for the Brexiters: if we do remain, will you accept that decision?
What I will do, I will stick two angry fingers at the results being announced, then find a dark corner and curl up and die. In a few million years time I will have turned into dinosoar juice able to power the diesel trains of the very far future and contribute to the climate change of that era!

;)
 

Harbornite

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You need to remember though a "fact" that has been pointed out on here on an almost daily basis - the readership are mainly xenophobes, racists, little Englanders and generally stupid.

There should be emphasis on "mainly" as I and some other people I know read the Mail and we aren't stupid, little Englanders etc. However, I'll be the first to admit that the mail has printed some absolute crap over the years and I agree that many of its readers fit that description, but I don't think they're as bad as sun readers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually, I've just realised that your comment was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek?
 

Senex

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A question for the Brexiters: if we do remain, will you accept that decision?
And to turn it on its head, if the Brexiters win, will the Remain camp be just as unwilling to accept a decision as the Brexiters have been for the last forty years and constantly strive to urge a return to the fold?

I suppose the thing we all have to hope for is a very clear decision by a substantial majority and with a high turn-out. Suppose it were a knife-edge decision like the Austrian presidency and with a low turn-out, would either side be content?
 

Howardh

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What happens, should we leave, to the Irish/UK border? It's completely open - and as far as I know reading Brexit literature, it will remain so (or the issue's ignored).

Therefore, even if UK leaves the EU, EU passport holders can enter Ireland unhindered, and from there travel without any sort of checks into the UK (Northern Ireland), and if they are *illegal* simply disappear into the black economy, and we simply wouldn't know they are here. And taking genuine workseeker's jobs too.

Or are they thinking of bringing in border controls? If so, it's a long border with over 200 useable roads + countless footpaths through fields. How much would that cost, and how would they appease putting a physical border between Irishman and Irishman
 

zuriblue

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A question for the Brexiters: if we do remain, will you accept that decision?

I doubt it unfortunately. Just look at recent byelections where the Kippers have lost - cue much whining and accusations of postal ballot fraud. If we vote to remain (and I hope we do) you won't be able to hear yourself think for the wailing.
 

Gutfright

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What happens, should we leave, to the Irish/UK border? It's completely open - and as far as I know reading Brexit literature, it will remain so (or the issue's ignored).

Therefore, even if UK leaves the EU, EU passport holders can enter Ireland unhindered, and from there travel without any sort of checks into the UK (Northern Ireland), and if they are *illegal* simply disappear into the black economy, and we simply wouldn't know they are here. And taking genuine workseeker's jobs too.

Or are they thinking of bringing in border controls? If so, it's a long border with over 200 useable roads + countless footpaths through fields. How much would that cost, and how would they appease putting a physical border between Irishman and Irishman

Passports are already required by airlines and ferry operators to cross the Irish Sea. Even if the borders remained completely open between Ireland and NI, It would still be difficult to enter mainland Britain without a valid passport.

I doubt it unfortunately. Just look at recent byelections where the Kippers have lost - cue much whining and accusations of postal ballot fraud. If we vote to remain (and I hope we do) you won't be able to hear yourself think for the wailing.

All Kippers are brexiteers, but not all brexiteers are Kippers.
 
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zuriblue

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All Kippers are brexiteers, but not all brexiteers are Kippers.

According to polling some 3% of Kippers are in favour of Remain!

I can certainly see Nigel and his mates voting Remain in the privacy of the voting booth; he's getting the thick end of £100K for just turning up to sign for his wages. UKIP under Sked wouldn't run for the Euro Parliament as they didn't believe in it. Nigel has a little (ok a lot) less integrity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...and The Mail is by far the most visited UK newspaper website.

The second (and not so far behind) being the Guardian.
 

Bletchleyite

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Passports are already required by airlines and ferry operators to cross the Irish Sea.


No they aren't. Ryanair requires passports for all flights including domestics, that is just their silly policy. You can, as a British citizen (and no, you don't have to have a passport to prove it, it's a bit of a paradox) fly between the mainland and Ireland with any other photo ID the airline chooses to accept.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Gutfright

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No they aren't. Ryanair requires passports for all flights including domestics, that is just their silly policy. You can, as a British citizen (and no, you don't have to have a passport to prove it, it's a bit of a paradox) fly between the mainland and Ireland with any other photo ID the airline chooses to accept.

Ok, I have to hold up my hands. Seems I've got my facts wrong.

My guess is that, in the event of Brexit, passports will be required to cross between Eire and mainland Britain, and that the border between Ireland and NI will continue to be unmanned. What will actually happen, it appears, is anyone's guess.
 

anme

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What happens, should we leave, to the Irish/UK border? It's completely open - and as far as I know reading Brexit literature, it will remain so (or the issue's ignored).

Please understand (not just you - everyone!) that no-one knows what will happen if the UK votes to leave the EU. It will all be subject first to a decision by the UK on what kind of relationship it wants with the EU - which might be anything from the "Norwegian" model, where not much would change; to sailing off into the sunset and isolating the UK from Europe to the greatest degree possible. And then secondly, these new arrangements with EU and the rest of the world will need to be negotiated.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that there's a plan for "brexit". In the event of a "leave" vote, there will follow a huge debate on what direction to take, and this will include not just Gove/Johnson/Trump et al, but also the "remain" side!
 

Howardh

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So reading the above, if there is any solution to the border problem, ther won't be any between Eire and Norn, but there will be (a new one) between Eire and The North and the UK mainland, thus rubbishing 115 years of agreements and allowing Northern Ireland to cope with all the EU illegals that the mainland has washed it's hands of? So Norn is out of the EU but taking all their rubbish? That'll go down well.

The only other answer is to build the Green Curtain between Norn and Eire. That'll go down even better with the Irish.

Me thinks this Brexit isn't such a good idea after all, especially if it re-ignites Ireland. Just what we need.
 

ExRes

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I can certainly see Nigel and his mates voting Remain in the privacy of the voting booth; he's getting the thick end of £100K for just turning up to sign for his wages. UKIP under Sked wouldn't run for the Euro Parliament as they didn't believe in it. Nigel has a little (ok a lot) less integrity.

So you don't think, that in order to know how corrupt and useless the EU is, that it's a rather good idea to be there and see it in action from the inside?

Anyway, I'm not sure Nigel Farage needs to speak for the Out campaign, Cameron seems to be doing that very well although he does seem to be having a problem with putting a finger on where the scaremongering has been coming from, how odd ......
 

Gutfright

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So reading the above, if there is any solution to the border problem, ther won't be any between Eire and Norn, but there will be (a new one) between Eire and The North and the UK mainland, thus rubbishing 115 years of agreements and allowing Northern Ireland to cope with all the EU illegals that the mainland has washed it's hands of? So Norn is out of the EU but taking all their rubbish? That'll go down well.

The only other answer is to build the Green Curtain between Norn and Eire. That'll go down even better with the Irish.

Me thinks this Brexit isn't such a good idea after all, especially if it re-ignites Ireland. Just what we need.

I'm not 100% convinced that the "EU illegals" will be beating a path to live in Belfast in the event of Brexit. Photo ID is already required to travel between Eire and the U.K. Mainland, so the requirement for that ID to be a passport wouldn't introduce too much extra hassle.
 

EM2

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Regarding Ireland, between the formation of the Republic of Ireland in 1948, and the Republic and the UK joining the EEC (as was) in 1973, the border was always open and in fact (except during a brief period in WWII) it has never been necessary for Irish or British citizens to produce a passport to cross the border.
There were, however, military checkpoints during The Troubles.
Wikipedia has a quite comprehenive article on what is correctly known as the Common Travel Area.
 

anme

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So reading the above, if there is any solution to the border problem, ther won't be any between Eire and Norn, but there will be (a new one) between Eire and The North and the UK mainland, thus rubbishing 115 years of agreements and allowing Northern Ireland to cope with all the EU illegals that the mainland has washed it's hands of? So Norn is out of the EU but taking all their rubbish?

Firstly, what is this "rubbish" you refer to? Are you talking about human beings?

Secondly, we don't know what position the UK will choose for itself in the world if it votes to leave. When I asked the question earlier in this thread, the only person who bothered to answer basically referred to Norway, which is part of the Schengen zone and recognises the right of EU (+ Norwegian, Swiss and Icelandic) citizens to live and work there. The UK might choose to do the same, in which case the current arrangements need not change.

Thirdly, if the UK does withdraw the right of EU (etc) nationals to live and work there, and applies it to people already legally resident there, and starts deporting/repatriating/requiring them to leave, why would they all head to Belfast?

Fourthly, assuming all the above, what solution can members of this forum come up with?

Edit: note that just because someone is allowed into a country, they necessarily have the right to work and live there permanently.
 
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