Simple answer: HSTs are general purpose trains which are suitable for use on many routes throughout the country while 373s were built for a specific purpose on a specific route. GNER used the 'North of London' sets because they were available, not because they were the best trains for the job.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals
- Thread starter brad465
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Please Explain
Member
I was on TMST to Brussel in July chatting to the Chef de Train and was shocked beyond belief to hear her tell me that some of them will go for scrap.
What a waste of perfectly good high quality rolling stock!
This is criminal and should be stopped, these trains are a pleasure to travel on. How many sets are to be retained by EuroStar?
What a waste of perfectly good high quality rolling stock!
This is criminal and should be stopped, these trains are a pleasure to travel on. How many sets are to be retained by EuroStar?
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 32,909
If that were true they wouldn't have ordered all the 374s that they have to replace some of them, although a small number are to allow for route extensions (if they ever happen)...
Royston Vasey
Established Member
"perfectly good high quality rolling stock"
They're clapped out and need a high level of maintenance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Strategic Reserve surely?!
They can't fit in the secret tunnels under Box Hill as there are too many steam locomotives already held there.
reddragon
Established Member
The 373's have a key weaknesses that are probably leading to their demise: -
1 - They are built to the cramped UK loading gauge rather than the larger European loading gauge.
2 - Their unique electrical system built to allow them to operate on the Southern DC 3rd rail and old BR signals, added to the SNCF and SNCB systems make them complex to maintain and restricts their usage.
3 - They are a small, non-standard sub set of a much larger TGV product.
4 - Unlike the class 374 or Thalys TGV sets, they cannot operate into Germany or the Netherlands, thwarting growth on Eurostar until the class 374s are ready.
They may only be just over 20 years old, but they no longer provide what any train operator needs, a flexible, economical train to operate, that passenger like. HS1 / CTRL was their death sentence, along with problems with snow and being a small unique bespoke fleet for which the need went 10 years ago!
1 - They are built to the cramped UK loading gauge rather than the larger European loading gauge.
2 - Their unique electrical system built to allow them to operate on the Southern DC 3rd rail and old BR signals, added to the SNCF and SNCB systems make them complex to maintain and restricts their usage.
3 - They are a small, non-standard sub set of a much larger TGV product.
4 - Unlike the class 374 or Thalys TGV sets, they cannot operate into Germany or the Netherlands, thwarting growth on Eurostar until the class 374s are ready.
They may only be just over 20 years old, but they no longer provide what any train operator needs, a flexible, economical train to operate, that passenger like. HS1 / CTRL was their death sentence, along with problems with snow and being a small unique bespoke fleet for which the need went 10 years ago!
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
Well, I think it says that the NoL sets were a bit too long and could only work between London and York, whereas the HSTs could work anywhere on the GNER network.
Yeah, wot 'e said.
D365
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 12,169
Well yes, that too, but don't forget the numerous power supply handicaps. It would be impossible to run them again on the 'classic' network.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Just a hypothetical thought, but "what if" HS2 was just now nearing completion...
Would giving the 373s a heavy overhaul be a cheaper option than ordering a fleet of brand-new bespoke classic-compatible sets?
Would giving the 373s a heavy overhaul be a cheaper option than ordering a fleet of brand-new bespoke classic-compatible sets?
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
They also ran to Leeds. After the Leeds rebuild, platform 8 was long enough for a NoL 373 (though they were more often than not sent into 1 or 7). Wakefield was always way too short, so long dwells ensued.
Please Explain
Member
Thank you.
@Phil,
Really? I didn't realise they were in such a bad state technic wise. The passanger accommodation is generous in both first and second, and they are great for long journeys. Give me one over a pendo on a trip to Scotland any day.
But that is just my opinion.
I'll be sad to see them go.
@ swt_passenger,
Obviously Eurostar don't think much of them...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Forget HS2, what about for MML electrification?!!
SpacePhoenix
Established Member
- Joined
- 18 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 5,491
When GNER ran the NoL sets, how close did they come to overloading the power supply?
SpacePhoenix
Established Member
- Joined
- 18 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 5,491
They'll also be getting towards being life-expired given that the millage clocked up by the class 373 fleet is probably into the millions by now
D365
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 12,169
Most fleets by now clock up millions of miles relatively quickly. I don't think that's their main problem.
6. I'm led to believe that corrosion is one of the items effecting the class 373s - having to accommodate for the UK Climate, Channel Tunnel Climate - Warm, Humid, Moist and whatever it is in France.
In a way I agree, it is a shame that they are already facing the scrap heap but, for the reasons pointed out as above. What with advances in technology and power supply, and distributed traction now being commonly used in High Speed rolling stock all combines to push the 373s further down the pile. I do think it's a bit of a shame that the De Dietrich / Alstom DDF Coaches couldn't be converted to loco hauled vehicles (seeing as they are similar to the later build stock for the Enterprise), but what good would they be for a non loco hauled railway?
D365
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 12,169
About as good as the 442s
Exactly!
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 16,776
Which wouldn't be quite such an issue if Eurostar had maintained them. Most are in a disgraceful condition, having never had any bodywork attention since new.
Chris125
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Nov 2009
- Messages
- 3,155
A single 400m long train could not operate services into 'classic' stations without platforms of that length nor could they split en-route.
On HS2 itself, their 186mph top speed and relatively poor acceleration would lengthen journey times compared to the 225mph trainsets currently planned for and could reduce the lines capacity.
It wouldn't make sense, even hypothetically.
There were restrictions as to what else could be in the fed area as a result. It's also important to point out the NoL sets were limited to 110mph on the ECML, whereas the HSTs aren't, which given the relatively non-stop services likely made up for the difference in acceleration. And the fact that I believe they're axle loadings and track access charges were high.
brad465
Established Member
Yesterday I cycled through the area of the Fawkham link again and, like the previous 3-4 times since I started the thread there is still a 373 set positioned there. Based on this sighting could it be the same set from early summer or are they being moved and scrapped as has been suggested?
reddragon
Established Member
18000 hp versus 6300 hp on a class 91 is a lot of current draw.
They can only really operate on high speed lines, where the power is available.
To operate on a classic route, they would have to be shortened to fit in stations and their power draw limited, hey maybe one power car could become a DVT!!! Removing the DC gumpf would help too and some updating, oops, nearly a new power car!
HS2 will required larger loading gauge trains & higher speeds / acceleration, leaving maybe a use as classic compatible train, after 10 years in warm store (nope).
OK, perhaps coupled to a class 442 they could find a purpose, err no
HS charter train, that's it!
They can only really operate on high speed lines, where the power is available.
To operate on a classic route, they would have to be shortened to fit in stations and their power draw limited, hey maybe one power car could become a DVT!!! Removing the DC gumpf would help too and some updating, oops, nearly a new power car!
HS2 will required larger loading gauge trains & higher speeds / acceleration, leaving maybe a use as classic compatible train, after 10 years in warm store (nope).
OK, perhaps coupled to a class 442 they could find a purpose, err no
HS charter train, that's it!
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Thanks for the confirmation. I shall indeed delay putting lines through them in my book just for now.
Still looking to do a Eurostar trip in January for a 373 bash!
fredk
Member
- Joined
- 2 Sep 2016
- Messages
- 100
Despite having a layman's understanding of the class 373, surely it would be relatively cheap to re-engineer them into HST replacements compared with the price of a new fleet. I can't imagine it would require much more than shortening by a few cars, and perhaps replacing the motors combined with a new/updated firmware. If it is seen as worthwile to re-engineer old London Underground stock, old class 47s, 37s, and 73s to fulfill new purposes, then I cannot see why 25 year old modern high speed units are not seen as worthwhile.
Of course, with new class 800/801s they are no longer required even if they could have been a cheap HST replacement
However, some could potentially go to Anglia, as they are far more modern than 225s (are they still the planned replacement for the class 90s?).
Despite having a layman's understanding of the class 373, surely it would be relatively cheap to re-engineer them into HST replacements compared with the price of a new fleet. I can't imagine it would require much more than shortening by a few cars, and perhaps replacing the motors combined with a new/updated firmware. If it is seen as worthwile to re-engineer old London Underground stock, old class 47s, 37s, and 73s to fulfill new purposes, then I cannot see why 25 year old modern high speed units are not seen as worthwhile.
Of course, with new class 800/801s they are no longer required even if they could have been a cheap HST replacement
Back of the class for you sunshine, more homework needed! Frankly, I'm not even sure I follow what you are on about in the last paragraph. 225s are not going to AGA for a start, and 373s are only, on average, 4 years younger than the 225 sets ......
I know what all those words mean by themselves, but they don't seem to go together.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
The 374s are not yet passed for Ashford so to guarantee a 373 on a Paris run, book something that calls at Ashford.
Obviously the Bruxelles services are all still solid 373 haulage at the moment.
- Status