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Time to get new trains earning money.

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theblackwatch

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As a matter of interest, it was 39 days between the first 387 arriving with GWR and the first public operation, by all accounts phenomenally fast. During that 39 days, sufficient drivers and fitters were trained, platforms were gauge cleared, tests were completed to ensure no accidental effects on the signalling system and no doubt a host of other things, too.

This was a great achievement I have to agree. And for anyone who thinks 'taking a long time' is a modern thing, there is a feature in the latest Rail Express on the introduction of the HSTs in 1976, and it certainly wasn't plain sailing then either!
 
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Marklund

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And yet the pilots took the brunt of the blame from BMi and were sacked! Yes the pilots made a critical error, but based on their knowledge and prior experience and the information available to them at the time, i dont think BMi were entirely fair to them, especially as training wasnt sufficient for the new type.

Quite agree. The Airline had a duty to train the pilots properly, and they failed to do that.
 

PHILIPE

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Trains have to gain mileage accumulation before being able to enter into passenger carrying service. A reliabililty proving procedure, being able to run fault free for so many miles. Not sure how many.
 

superkev

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Trains have to gain mileage accumulation before being able to enter into passenger carrying service. A reliabililty proving procedure, being able to run fault free for so many miles. Not sure how many.

I believe it's 1000 miles (has anyone assessed the value add if any of this) which in the case of Siemens could have been done before delivery and accept ance so I'm at loss as to why new emus cannot do as the 66 were and go straight into service after delivery.
Is the railway (and possibly the UK) crippled with red tape and perhaps a can't do rather than can do mentality. End of moan.
K
 

8J

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As mentioned already on here, flight crew nowadays come type rated on 737's. Heck 757 crews can with a conversion course fly a 767! This makes it a lot easier for airlines to get their aircraft into service. Not to mention the other complexities that trains have to go through to get cleared to operate on a route (remember them French trains that were too wide for the platforms!!!)

A better (but far from perfect) way of comparing the 2 industries is when tocs receive used stock cascaded from elsewhere. Northern with the 319 introduction is a good example of this to use. They had crews ready for the launch (which was delayed by the wires not being complete) as they did training runs to Crewe and back. A bit difficult to do with new build stuff when it hasn't arrived in the country yet!
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Another way to think of it is that trains spend their whole operational lives interfacing with a dedicated infrastructure, planes don't! All the critical components that make up an airliner are thoroughly proven long before they reach the manufacturer's assembly plant and it's hardly necessary to confirm that tyres roll on taxiways and runways or that the laws of physics still allow wings to generate lift given sufficient speed through the air. Whereas experience has shown time and time again that the railway environment, particularly "under the floor", is an incredibly debilitating area for equipment that appears to function reliably in the factory. Hence the growing importance of test tracks. But even these struggle to show up all the environmental variables on the live railway: remember how the SWT Desiros kept sitting down during their first winter because Siemens hadn't fully considered the effects of ice on the conductor rail.
 

fredk

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A 737 is pretty standard with so many produced and the design not changed much over a long period of time. Usually with rolling stock it's built up from the ground for that particular use. With so little standard type of stock of course there will be longer research, development, and testing compared with a massed produced jumbo jet.
 

Class377/5

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agreed.

"new" trains are almost second hand by the time they enter revenue service. I've asked what specific test cases are required for each type of train, why it took so long and got no answer.

Maybe a plane has fewer compatibility issues to worry about.

My issue with this though is the same with cars.

They've been building them for years, the very premise of the design has not changed in that time, so why do manufacturers still churn out wares with so many faults in them?

They say "innovations", I say "full of defects".

I can't understand why the 700's seem to be having so many teething troubles. The tech is ancient and there has been an operating model on this line for donkeys years.

I can imagine the corporate collaboration models are full of procrastinators, much like where I work

Er you are wrong on the 700s. There's never been a Desiro on the Thameslink route (bar East Croydon to Clapham) before. The tech is not ancient and is a brand new design with everything being new.

The difference between a plane and a train is massive in acceptance terms.

Planes just need to be able to take off and land with system operating.

A train must be tested along its entire route and all routes it could go to be proven as not causing an problems. Then there is the issue of ensure its comparable with a working practices like signal sighting that requires testing at every platform they are likely to go both day and night.

Let's not forget planes only interact on a basic level with the infrastructure (radios, computer links, airports) where as a train interacts with the infrastructure all the time. It's this massive difference why trains need more testing than planes.
 

jopsuk

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I believe it's 1000 miles (has anyone assessed the value add if any of this) which in the case of Siemens could have been done before delivery and accept ance so I'm at loss as to why new emus cannot do as the 66 were and go straight into service after delivery.
Is the railway (and possibly the UK) crippled with red tape and perhaps a can't do rather than can do mentality. End of moan.
K

The 700s are very complex units. The Class 66s are not. And already the time between delivery of a 700 and entry into service is tumbling.

The first 700s took ages because of all the gauging, training and communications issues that needed sorted.

The last 66s were able to have the key turned and go as they were a completely known quantity with hundreds running nationwide and a fully trained workforce. They're also MUCH simpler- the only interface they have with their payload is a coupler and the brake pipes. They're not fitted with automatic train control or ERTMS. They don't have SDO. They don't have a system that communicate up the line to tell waiting passengers which bit of the train there's space on.
 
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My local airline jet2 took delivery of a a brand new Boeing 737 last Thursday and I hear it will be carrying its first passengers this Wednesday. That's less than a week of prep.
Bit of a contrast to the railway then where timescales seem to be months or even years between leaving the manufacturer and earning money.
K

and boeing churn out how many 'standard' 737s a week ... you also have to consider how much work is done prior to 'delivery' to the end user ...
 

FQTV

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It's true to say that airline and rail operations aren't the same, but I don't think that necessarily makes one or other 'right'.

The suggestion that there's little physical interface between an aircraft and physical infrastructure is only credible when overall operating and standing hours are the measure; by any other measure, physical interface is both critical and crucial in aviation.

At its most basic level, airport runways, taxiways, aprons and stands have a 'loading guage', and there's a vast amount of ground-fixed facility whose position is fundamental to the safe and efficient movement of aircraft, support vehicles, workers and passengers. The reason that only certain airports can handle an A380, for example, is that it's 'out of guage' for the others.

The principal reason that BA doesn't operate the A380 to JFK is that A380s won't fit into Terminal 7 stands.

Notwithstanding that, the difference, potentially, is that aviation generally works largely to international standards, with only a few international equipment manufacturers, and infrastructure and equipment is developed on a more collaborative basis. Here's the airport development guide for a Boeing 737, for example:

www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf

The airport must decide: if it wants to develop and not meet the Boeing specs, then it precludes itself from handling 737 operations.

The analogy would therefore more closely be between Heathrow requiring Boeing to develop a special variant of 737 to fit within its physical limitations, and TPE requiring modifications to an otherwise off-the-shelf Siemens product.
 

Spartacus

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Simply not comparing like for like. The basic 737 design from the late 60s, updated in the 80s, and the 800 almost 20 years old now. I'm sure if there was a train built to similar standards for a similar timescale it would go all but straight into service....

Oh wait, there was, the 66, an almost 20 year old design, based upon the 80s designed 59, derived from the early 70s designed SD4-2. I'm sure if the 700s are in production in 15 years time for routes they're already cleared on the situation will be the same.
 

zn1

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the electrostars are a proven fleet, train crew etc can be trained on southern metals, MML Steel etc so no real surprise how quick that Litchurch lane can get them in to traffic with the customer who has ordered the fleet.
 

Master29

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I think there is confusion over a new machine for it`s intended purpose and individual new machines doing the same thing. AT300`s a prime example.
 

D365

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The 387s are being put into service fairly quickly, no? AFAICT it's Bombardier's best showing yet!
 

RobShipway

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The 387s are being put into service fairly quickly, no? AFAICT it's Bombardier's best showing yet!

Yes, but the class 387's are an updated class 377/379 unit. The first units of both types where tested if memory serves for good few months before entering into public service?

The few months to a years testing though would be not different than say Airbus or Boeing doing 2 years of testing before being used by any airline as has previously been mentioned within this thread.
 

superkev

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Just an update on jet2's first 737 of its order for 30.
Affter acceptance by jet 2 at Boeing seattle arrived Leeds 15th Aug. Extra fuel tanks removed and prep for service then departed faro 20th. That's just 5 days.
How does this compare with say a class 700 arriving from commissioning at Siemens test track to service?
K
 

D365

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How does this compare with say a class 700 arriving from commissioning at Siemens test track to service?

So you've read, let's say, one reply. What was the point in us writing anything?

Don't think it's been said yet but all Class 700s are expected to be in service by May 2018, so rate of delivery is definitely going to pick up.
 

RobShipway

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Just an update on jet2's first 737 of its order for 30.
Affter acceptance by jet 2 at Boeing seattle arrived Leeds 15th Aug. Extra fuel tanks removed and prep for service then departed faro 20th. That's just 5 days.
How does this compare with say a class 700 arriving from commissioning at Siemens test track to service?
K

How many hours of acceptance testing did Boeing do with that 737 before it departed Seattle?
 

RobShipway

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With a bit of google fu, it would seem that the test flight is carried out by the customer's pilots, and the test flight is only about 2 hours long

Incorrect I believe as Boeing used to do some test flying for about 1 - 2 weeks, before handing over the to airline pilots who do about 20 hours testing the plane before putting into service.
 

Taunton

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Despite all the excuses above it is indeed ludicrous the different length of time between airliners and trains being completed and introduced to service. Even the very last of the Underground S-stock seems to be coming along many months after construction was completed. For airliners it is a matter of days (literally) between first flight and delivery, in which time the manufacturer finds and fixes all the snags. Some airlines who buy from Boeing take them to their USA airport and actually start them on their first scheduled passenger service going home to their base.

The whole idea of the Siemens test track or Old Dalby etc was surely that trains would be handed over ready to run, yet they seem to hang about at these facilities for months, and then start all over again taking for ever at the acceptance depot before coming in to service, and still fundamental faults are then found such as the current Class 700 issues at certain points on the network.
 

D365

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Even the very last of the Underground S-stock seems to be coming along many months after construction was completed.

Because the full compliment is not needed until the SSL resignalling is (finally) complete.

The whole idea of the Siemens test track or Old Dalby etc was surely that trains would be handed over ready to run, yet they seem to hang about at these facilities for months, and then start all over again taking for ever at the acceptance depot before coming in to service, and still fundamental faults are then found such as the current Class 700 issues at certain points on the network.

How do you suggest that Siemens replicate all possible faults on their test track?
 

Townsend Hook

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In which case why bother having a test track?

Because it's the easiest way to detect out any obvious flaws and defects in the stock without affecting services out on the real railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to have my say on this subject, virtually all new stock on the railway suffers from teething problems of varying severity, both in testing and on entry into service. It would seem to be logical that carrying out any less testing than is done presently would mean that more of these teething problems will not be identified until the stock in question is in main line service, with the attendant delays, cancellations and all round inconvenience.
 

Cowley

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This is just a question, hopefully someone may know the answer.
Is a plane generally of far superior build quality to a train? Also, what is the price of a new 737 airliner compaired to say a new class 700 set?
 

Townsend Hook

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This is just a question, hopefully someone may know the answer.
Is a plane generally of far superior build quality to a train? Also, what is the price of a new 737 airliner compaired to say a new class 700 set?

I'm not sure that build quality is something you can compare between such different things as a plane and a train. Even if you could, I'm not quite sure how such a comparison would be relevant to this thread.

On the subject of price, prices for a 737 start at around $50m, which equates to around £38.5m. The Thameslink stock contract was worth £1.6b for 1160 carriages, so a bit less than £1.4m a carriage, £11m ish for an 8 car set or £16.5m ish for a 12 car set. Obviously those costings aren't directly comparable, given that the Thameslink contract also includes maintenance, etc.
 
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