Virgin Super Voyager Coach D Refurb

[ATW Alex 101]

First thread in I think years! I've been a bit out the loop in terms of railway news etc.

After approximately 2 years, I travelled on a Virgin Super Voyager from Chester to London this weekend. This was a trip I used to make fortnightly for a while until late 2014.

Usually I used to park myself in coach D, as this was always the declassified first class and thus had the nicer seats with a good layout which meant wherever you sat there was a window view. Also, the wifi was free in this area which was always a bonus!

To my horror, all the seats in coach D have since been replaced with those crappy seats found in the rest of the train! Albeit in the same layout so it's not all bad. But why? What was wrong with the old ones?

Also, the loss of the wifi! In this day and age, surely wifi is something that you would expect to be readily available, but it seems Virgin are just using it as an attempt to extort more money!

What are other people's views on the changes/downgrade to the refurb that Virgin have done to Coach D on the Super Voyagers?

Personally I think it's ridiculous, if it ain't broke why fix it?

 

[TheEdge]

Personally I think it's ridiculous, if it ain't broke why fix it?

Without knowing the full details of this they're fixing it because it is broken. If they need to constantly declassify a first class coach then they have too many first seats and not enough standards, thats broken. By converting it to full standard they now have extra standard seats and that fixes it.

 

[All Line Rover]

Why should the WiFi be free for only one of the standard class carriages? It was never supposed to be free for standard class ticket holders!

I was happy enough that the layout stayed the same (apparently, the original intention was to change it back to the usual standard class layout). That the seats aren't quite as well padded as they used to be is neither here nor there.
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Without knowing the full details of this they're fixing it because it is broken. If they need to constantly declassify a first class coach then they have too many first seats and not enough standards, thats broken. By converting it to full standard they now have extra standard seats and that fixes it.

Coach D was never a first class carriage. The problem is that there aren't enough first class seats in Coach E to cater for demand on certain services, so Virgin wanted to be able to occasionally designate a standard class carriage as a first class carriage. However, I expect they came to the conclusion (with some gentle hinting from the DfT?) that three standard class carriages didn't work either. So without the lengthening of the Voyagers to six carriages, we stick with Coach E as the single first class carriage, bump up the first class fares, and grin and bear it when first class is full and standing.

 

[47513 Severn]

Weren't the seats always the same as the other standard class carriages? I think they were just arranged in a more spacious all table layout so they all lined up well with the windows.

The first/standard convertible concept has since been dropped hence the changes to make the facilities match the rest of standard class.

 

[causton]

As shown in the picture from Seat61.com, the seats were the same as the old First Class ones.

Probably, now the First Class ones are so radically different to the Standard Class ones, having a coach that is sometimes one and sometimes the other may have been confusing whatever seats they chose when they refurbished coach E.

 

[Master29]

Thus increasing the capacity of their 5 car units to a similar crosscountry type formation perhaps.

 

[All Line Rover]

As shown in the picture from Seat61.com, the seats were the same as the old First Class ones.

The seats were narrower, of course!

Probably, now the First Class ones are so radically different to the Standard Class ones, having a coach that is sometimes one and sometimes the other may have been confusing whatever seats they chose when they refurbished coach E.

That may have been the case, but I got the distinct impression that the gross overcrowding that occurred in standard class whenever Coach D was used as a first class carriage (which, a few years ago, even occurred on such busy services as the 09:35 from Chester to London Euston), had an influence on the decision to dispose of the practice.
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Thus increasing the capacity of their 5 car units to a similar crosscountry type formation perhaps.

Capacity stays the same. Same amount of leg room. All seats still have tables. Great for groups and families.
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Weren't the seats always the same as the other standard class carriages? I think they were just arranged in a more spacious all table layout so they all lined up well with the windows.

They had more padding. More padding than the first class seats, in fact. I liked them, although not everybody did.

 

[47513 Severn]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:221129_A_Super_Voyager_First_Class_Interior.JPG
As per this picture from Wikipedia, the first class seats are a distinctly different shape, I doubt there would be room for them in a 2+2 layout. Coach D just had first class moquette on the narrower standard class seats.

 

[harz99]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:221129_A_Super_Voyager_First_Class_Interior.JPG
As per this picture from Wikipedia, the first class seats are a distinctly different shape, I doubt there would be room for them in a 2+2 layout. Coach D just had first class moquette on the narrower standard class seats.

And thicker padding to the cushion part of the seat (which unfortunately disintegrated as time went on until the seats were worse than normal standard ones).

 

[Starmill]

They haven't replaced the seats, they've replaced the cushions so they're the best standard class seats in the fleet because they've got the newest cushions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They had more padding. More padding than the first class seats, in fact. I liked them, although not everybody did.

I didn't because they jammed my (admittedly fairly hefty) legs against the table. Much prefer the new (old) ones in that layout.

 

[TheEscapist_]

Is it odd that the sort of first class coach has better seat/window alignment than the actual first class?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The WiFi thing annoys me, too- if I take the bus from Huddersfield to Batley I get free WiFi (If Arriva's Heckmondwike depot actually bother to use a MAX vehicle on a MAX service, that is!). If I take a train from Bradford to Ilkley I get free WiFi. However if I take a train from Leeds to London I have to pay extra for WiFi. The whole thing is backwards!

 

[All Line Rover]

It's odd that the only standard class wheelchair space (read: buggy storage area) is in the quiet coach. It's odd that there are only four toilets, all of which are wheelchair accessible even in coaches where there is no wheelchair space. Its odd that Voyagers run entirely under the wires from Scotland to London via Birmingham. And it's odd that anyone thought 5-car trains would be adequate on the WCML. The sooner the Voyager trains can be removed from the WCML the better, although I'm sure similar joys will be brought to ECML and GWML passengers with the 5-car IEP trains.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agrreed with all of the above ALR.

I have my own 221 bugbair and thats air con. Last few trips its been unserviceable throughout!

 

[Starmill]

I don't think a single one of those problems (wasted space, insufficient or foul-smelling toilets, profligate use of fuel, or inadequate capacity) will affect the 80x fleet. Doubtless the 22x fleet are among the worst for all of these and more, but I'm sure we've been through this before

 

[dk1]

I found the seats in the 'hybrid' coach uncomfortable. Seemed to press on the wrong part of your back. Prefer the normal standard class ones.

 

[JaJaWa]

However if I take a train from Leeds to London I have to pay extra for WiFi. The whole thing is backwards!

Free in both classes if you book on virgintrainseastcoast.com. Will be free to everyone when it's upgraded to sufficient level / the Azumas come in.

 

[Carlisle]

foul-smelling toilets,

Nowhere near as bad as the smells from around some Pendilino toilet cubicles

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Coach D was never a first class carriage. The problem is that there aren't enough first class seats in Coach E to cater for demand on certain services, so Virgin wanted to be able to occasionally designate a standard class carriage as a first class carriage. However, I expect they came to the conclusion (with some gentle hinting from the DfT?) that three standard class carriages didn't work either. So without the lengthening of the Voyagers to six carriages, we stick with Coach E as the single first class carriage, bump up the first class fares, and grin and bear it when first class is full and standing.

I was of the impression that the issue was not accommodation in a five car formation, but actually accommodation in a ten car formation (for services into North Wales which had previously been a Pendolino). It would have been quite inefficient to have two fleets of Voyagers out of a total of 20.

 

[headshot119]

I was of the impression that the issue was not accommodation in a five car formation, but actually accommodation in a ten car formation (for services into North Wales which had previously been a Pendolino). It would have been quite inefficient to have two fleets of Voyagers out of a total of 20.

I'm not sure what the original drive was, but the introduction was long after pendolinos stopped regular runs down the coast (regular runs defined as daily, vice the Saturdays only move for a few years). The 09:35 from Chester which has always been a 5 car super voyager for as long as I remember was a contender for this 2 coach of first class nonsense, leaving only 3 coaches of standard.

 

[Mugby]

Were these Voyagers always used exclusively on West Coast services?

When Virgin held the XC franchise, I don't remember ever seeing them on XC services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Were these Voyagers always used exclusively on West Coast services?

When Virgin held the XC franchise, I don't remember ever seeing them on XC services.

I think the 4-car (now reformed to 5-car by disbanding one of the 4-cars) 221s were always dedicated to West Coast, they were certainly ordered for West Coast specifically. But I'm almost certain the "hybrid coach" was introduced after VT lost XC to Arriva.

 

[Carlisle]

But I'm almost certain the "hybrid coach" was introduced after VT lost XC to Arriva.

Yes it started to come in during a refresh about 6 months after Virgin WC took over their fleet of former VXC Voyagers

 

[Helvellyn]

It's odd that the only standard class wheelchair space (read: buggy storage area) is in the quiet coach. It's odd that there are only four toilets, all of which are wheelchair accessible even in coaches where there is no wheelchair space. Its odd that Voyagers run entirely under the wires from Scotland to London via Birmingham. And it's odd that anyone thought 5-car trains would be adequate on the WCML. The sooner the Voyager trains can be removed from the WCML the better, although I'm sure similar joys will be brought to ECML and GWML passengers with the 5-car IEP trains.

I recall Chris Green lamenting that when he came on board at Virgin Trains things had progressed too far with the design of the Voyagers, Super Voyagers and Pendolinos for him to have any significant impact on how they turned out.

It would be hoped that any mid-life refurbishment of the Voyagers will see the universal loos in the centre cars replaced by more standard sized ones. Even if that only results in some perch seats or tip-up seats opposite them it would at least give a slightly better environment for some people on the busiest trains.

As regards five-car units, the four 4-car 221s were originally ordered for the Euston-Holyhead services, which just seems mad today. Then again so was a lot of what happened with CrossCountry in the late 1990s.

It's one of the franchises I'd be most intrigued to see what the other original bids proposed given how Operation Princess ultimately panned out for Virgin.

 

[headshot119]

I think the 4-car (now reformed to 5-car by disbanding one of the 4-cars) 221s were always dedicated to West Coast, they were certainly ordered for West Coast specifically. But I'm almost certain the "hybrid coach" was introduced after VT lost XC to Arriva.

They weren't "dedicated" to the West Coast when Virgin held both franchises, XC ended up with one of them after the franchise change, and Virgin reformed what they had into all 5 cars, leaving two redundant driving cars.

 

[All Line Rover]

Today 221 143 is working the 10:23 to Shrewsbury. It's nice that passengers get the most comfortable Super Voyager for this longer journey.

I also note that 221 143 is considerably busier than the rear unit (including in first class), which backs up reports that the Shrewsbury service is well used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I found the seats in the 'hybrid' coach uncomfortable. Seemed to press on the wrong part of your back. Prefer the normal standard class ones.

As do I, though for a different reason - I've got pretty hefty legs and the thicker cushion caused them to wedge uncomfortably against the table.

 

[dk1]

I also note that 221 143 is considerably busier than the rear unit (including in first class), which backs up reports that the Shrewsbury service is well used.

15:24 is FAS from Telford today.