East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Doctor Fegg]

There will be enough passengers for a non-stop service between both varsity cities in under two hours.

[citation needed]

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be enough passengers for a non-stop service between both varsity cities in under two hours. Coach operators will see to that by tempting fares.

There is almost no demand for travel between the two (there will be some, but not much). Most demand is intermediate. Take a ride on the X5 (slow, I accept) and look at it for yourself.

If Stagey saw the demand, they'd be running it by now.

 

[richieb1971]

There is almost no demand for travel between the two (there will be some, but not much). Most demand is intermediate. Take a ride on the X5 (slow, I accept) and look at it for yourself.

If Stagey saw the demand, they'd be running it by now.

I don't understand why people compare numbers travelling today with numbers travelling the same journey by train in 5 years time.

People like options and if more options exist the likely they are to travel from A to B. I for one am 100% more likely to ride a train into Oxford or Cambridge than the X5. The X5 exists today and I have never used it. But if a train existed I would use it 3 or 4 times a year maybe. If I were a commuter that was guaranteed 99% of the time to reach my destination in less than 1.5 hours, thats doable for me.

Most people commuting from Ox to Cam or vice versa would be car drivers and I can certainly tell you that they would not consider the bus/coach. It takes too long and journey times are still dependent on traffic. The train is the only option which takes that hurdle away.

 

[CockneySparrow]

There is almost no demand for travel between the two (there will be some, but not much). Most demand is intermediate. Take a ride on the X5 (slow, I accept) and look at it for yourself.

If Stagey saw the demand, they'd be running it by now.

Agree with that, perhaps one direct each in the morning and evening, not on an hourly basis, it would be unviable

 

[deltic08]

There is almost no demand for travel between the two (there will be some, but not much). Most demand is intermediate. Take a ride on the X5 (slow, I accept) and look at it for yourself.

If Stagey saw the demand, they'd be running it by now.

Thank you for the invitation but 180 miles is too far to travel just to experience a 3 hour 35 minutes bus ride. I do not even travel 10 miles to my nearest town by bus even though I have a bus pass.

No they wouldn't as coach is not currently competitive with car but with a new road, a non-stop service with tables and Wi-Fi would be and also competitive with rail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't understand why people compare numbers travelling today with numbers travelling the same journey by train in 5 years time.

People like options and if more options exist the likely they are to travel from A to B. I for one am 100% more likely to ride a train into Oxford or Cambridge than the X5. The X5 exists today and I have never used it. But if a train existed I would use it 3 or 4 times a year maybe. If I were a commuter that was guaranteed 99% of the time to reach my destination in less than 1.5 hours, thats doable for me.

Most people commuting from Ox to Cam or vice versa would be car drivers and I can certainly tell you that they would not consider the bus/coach. It takes too long and journey times are still dependent on traffic. The train is the only option which takes that hurdle away.

If there is no demand now for a non-stop service why is there pressure for a £billion road and £billion railway line as latent demand is lacking. Are we looking at two white elephants here?

 

[edwin_m]

If there is no demand now for a non-stop service why is there pressure for a £billion road and £billion railway line as latent demand is lacking. Are we looking at two white elephants here?

There are unlikely to be many commuters between Oxford and Cambridge by either road or rail. If you want to live in a university city with a rather overheated economy and housing market then you probably choose the one you work in, not another very similar one 90min or however long away.

The route is all about connecting areas of new housing to employment so that people who can't afford or don't wish to live in such a place can travel in from elsewhere. Thus the main commuter flows will be from intermediate stations to either end, and also between intermediate stations which include sizeable population and employment centres at MK and Bedford. There will no doubt be end-to-end business and leisure travel but that's probably a secondary market.

 

[a good off]

People are just looking at it from a passenger perspective. The line is going to mixed traffic which will be very useful for the freight operators.

If the line was reopened throughout, then the Felixstowe - Bristol/S.Wales liners would most likely use the entire length of it, along with the odd stone train from the west to Bury St Edmunds etc.

For me, where this line comes in most useful freightwise, is that at the western end it provides a diversionary route north of Oxford for the Southampton liners to be sent via Bletchley and the WCML, and the same for the Felixstowe liners from the eastern end (with a run round, I know) when the cross country route via Peterborough is in trouble and the London end of the GE/NLL being stuffed. Some freights from both ends could be routed that way anyway just to release a bit of capacity on the normal routes.

 

[midlandred]

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14...ridge_links__must_start_as_soon_as_possible_/

Call for work to start after money secured for Oxford to Cambridge links

WORK must begin as soon as possible on the next stage of a railway link between Oxford and Cambridge, Oxfordshire County Council's deputy leader has warned.

In yesterday's Autumn Statement Chancellor Philip Hammond announced £110m of funding for East West Rail and committed to deliver a new road expressway between the two cities.

Deputy leader Rodney Rose, who is chairman of the joint delivery board for East West Rail Western Section, said there should be no further delay on the next stage of the project – the link from Bicester to Bedford.

Mr Rose said: "It has now been put into control period six which goes from 2019 to 2024.

"I want work to start in the first month of 2019.

"It should be a case of putting some shingle down and putting some rail on top and getting diesel engines running.

"I am meeting with Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy in January to press again."

Mr Rose added that developers would not build much-needed housing until they could see the railway starting to take shape.

Mr Hammond's announcement came after the National Infrastructure Commission urged the Government to seize a 'once in a generation opportunity' to invest in links between Oxford and Cambridge.

Mr Hammond said: "This project can be more than just a transport link.

"It can become a transformational tech-corridor, drawing on the world-class research strengths of our two best-known universities."

Public transport advocate Hugh Jaeger welcomed the investment in East West Rail but said the expressway alongside it was a 'complete waste of money'.

He said: "It is a 1960s solution to a 21st century problem.

"Look at global temperatures this year and what that is doing to the Arctic ice cap.

"It will produce carbon if that road is built and even more carbon from cars driving up and down it.

"It is not necessary in any way."


Comments

Red Robbo 2 8:40am Thu 24 Nov 16
Oh dear...

"It should be a case of putting some shingle down and putting some rail on top and getting diesel engines...

A woeful misunderstanding of how to rebuild a railway which hasn't seen a train between Claydon and Bletchley since the 1980s. What about drainage, bridges, and culverts? Not to mention stations and signalling?

Cllr Rose's experience with Oxfordshire should help. Apart from Oxford Parkway, which was initiated by Chiltern not OCC, Oxfordshire's aspirations for new stations (remember Grove & Kidlington?) have amounted to nothing in the last 30 years.

Just the man to put in charge of a major project...

Andrewxford Replying Red Robbo 2 9:12am Thu 24 Nov 16
Perhaps not what you'd call a "details man"...

But if we're going into details... The last passenger train between Oxford and Bletchley ran in May 1993. You're probably thinking of the last passenger train to Abingdon in June 1984.

the wizard Replying Red Robbo 2 9:36am Thu 24 Nov 16
Indeed, a total Muppet if everthere was one, personified by his lack of knowledge comments and total lack of grasp of the situation. A rare breed one might say but plentiful within County and City Halls, having gone through the evolution from normal person to idiot soon after being made a councillor, a common complaint which can only be remedied by retirment from office.
Last edited: 1:54pm Thu 24 Nov 16


China is Blue Replying Red Robbo 2 12:22pm Thu 24 Nov 16
George Osborne's Autumn Statement in 2011 envisioned a service running by 2019.

In January 2013 Network Rail had a target date for operational train services of December 2017.

Since then, almost nothing. I suspect they are still trying to decide whether long distance services will use this track or whether it will just be local services. And, of course, parts of the original track from Bedford to Cambridge have been obliterated by housing and other developments.

the wizard 9:54am Thu 24 Nov 16
"I am meeting with Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy in January to press again."

You just have to feel for Hendy don't you. What did the poor man do to deserve such an 'honour' ?

 

[Andyjs247]

I thought the point of this money now was so they could actually get on with shovels in the ground for at least some of the work asap? Particularly around Claydon where EWR2 and HS2 meet and major work is needed. The legal powers for this are included in the HS2 hybrid bill - which should receive Royal Assent in December.

 

[Class 170101]

East West is highly unlikely to be delivered before Oxford-Didcot wires - lots of the piling has been done already and the Radley feeder station installed, with the North Oxford one to follow, so once Oxford track and resignalling is sorted out, the wiring work would be pretty straightforward.

I'm surprised the wires don't reach from Didcot to Radley to ensure reliability of supply.

 

[coppercapped]

Probably a reference to the proposed XC services on East West to and from Manchester.

I just can't see the demand being there for lots of people to travel Oxford-Northampton - the A43 can be pretty empty most of the time - but an hourly XC call might well suffice for any potential custom.

East West is highly unlikely to be delivered before Oxford-Didcot wires - lots of the piling has been done already and the Radley feeder station installed, with the North Oxford one to follow, so once Oxford track and resignalling is sorted out, the wiring work would be pretty straightforward.

A small point. I understood that the Didcot feeder station was the only connection to the 400kV grid in the area. Is it not that the Radley and North Oxford sites are to be switching stations rather than feeders?

 

[Phil.]

The whole thing is one massive pipe dream; the state of the track, the amount of track missing in certain areas. It's going to cost more than HS2 and that's more likely to be delivered to be honest.

So utterly fed up of this whole EWRL scheme and it's 'smoke and mirrors', constantly leaving local councils in a state of flux as to what will happen to the Claydon line.

I dunno about the cost but nevertheless it ain't gonna happen on my lifetime - I'm 66 and come from a family with a history of long lives.

 

[MarkRedon]

I dunno about the cost but nevertheless it ain't gonna happen on my lifetime - I'm 66 and come from a family with a history of long lives.

I am 62. I correctly anticipated the election of Donald Trump and a majority in favour of Brexit. I am "certain" that EWR will happen in my lifetime. I very much hope to be fit enough to take a train through from Cambridge to Oxford before I shuffle off.

A few missing track panels? So what? Have you not seen the complete, and very impressive, total rebuild and sections of new route where none existed previously on the Borders Railway or on EWR phase 1 between Oxford "General" and Bicester Village and beyond? EWR will cost a modest fortune, probably £3bn to do the whole thing including the Central section on to Cambridge. That would represent about 4% of the cost of HS2.

EWR is a new, strategically-important railway. In some respects I find it more exciting than HS2. HS2 has to be built because it's the cheapest way to obtain the necessary new capacity in North-South transport. EWR and Northern Powerhouse Rail will do a great deal for East-West capacity and travel opportunities.

I completely concur that a lot more "value engineering" - removal of gold plates - needs to be done to drive down the cost of new rail. But I'm also sure that it can be done and is deliverable.

Dump the negativity, people.

 

[Mikey C]

I expect both the railway and road to be completed, as there's space along both routes for much needed housing to be built, which needs the transport infrastructure to go with it.

This is about far more than existing users of the X5 etc

 

[richieb1971]

Dump the negativity, people.

People on here only champion something if there is profit made before the actual project is delivered.

The thing is with EWR is that we have been starved of a working railway since 1967 with inadequate roads to replace the old train services. All this railway is doing is correcting a mistake made all those years ago.

And I believe the railway should come before the homes, because Wixams has proven that sometimes you get promised things that you don't get.

Due to the negativity and understandable concerns about building railways, the delivery times of projects, the fact that things get announced sometimes 20 years in advance of a shovel going in the ground, my time here has been cut considerably. I came to this forum to find out how exciting the railway culture is only to find everything is bogged down in bureaucracy and a precious lack of skills, resources and money. Which makes the railway a bit boring and laborious. I'm surprised there is so much to talk about considering the railways get built and delivered at such a slow pace.

But on the bright side. Some of the people in power are pushing for this now.

 

[work-traveller]

Have you not seen the complete, and very impressive, total rebuild and sections of new route where none existed previously on the Borders Railway

Quite - also worth noting that Borders Railway was perilously close to not stacking up - it was pushed over the line by Scottish politics. EWR has the strongest business case of any proposed rail project in this country.

Furthermore, people should re-baseline their mental timeframes. Whilst the work undertaken by the local authorities over previous years succeeded in getting the DfT to remit the project to Network Rail, it wasn't enough to act as a base for the GRIP 2 (& beyond) design to be developed off.

 

[Chris125]

I thought the point of this money now was so they could actually get on with shovels in the ground for at least some of the work asap? Particularly around Claydon where EWR2 and HS2 meet and major work is needed. The legal powers for this are included in the HS2 hybrid bill - which should receive Royal Assent in December.

To quote the NIC report, the £100m is to "accelerate design and development, and commit construction monies as necessary to avoid abortive cost... and integrate construction of the East West Rail Western Section with work on HS2"

 

[cle]

The Oxford-Cambridge element of this is purely symbolic and marketing fluff.

It's about providing a new mainline for England - cutting through the South Midlands and areas of huge growth, plus connecting all of the mainlines out of London. Local journeys, regional links, freight and new long distance potential. And the uses and applications will continue to evolve.

The possibilities are huge; relieving car use regionally, linking to the MK boom, jobs around Cambridge and yes to a lesser degree Oxford... the hub at Reading... all of these towns/cities are the ones surrounding London with the most buoyant economies and good jobs.

Not to mention tourism/leisure - although I'd wager journeys into Bicester will rocket more than travel between the two uni cities.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Oxford-Cambridge element of this is purely symbolic and marketing fluff.

Agreed. The archaic term 'varsity line' should be banned.

 

[Bill EWS]

They could go back to rebuilding the curve from the south end of the viaduct at the Ex junction into the station but of course, that would be on the flat and affect Up & Down mainline movement. I remember that curve being in use but can't remember the name of the junction at the moment. It's been a long time.

 

[hwl]

Thinking about the Wednesday announcement...

Of the route Mileage of "EWR":

11.5miles has already been upgraded as part of the current Chiltern pushed effort from Bicester - Oxford

Of the rest that needs work or potentially does that is currently "operational" and also needed for HS2 construction trains is circa 25 route miles. e.g.
Princes Risbrough - Aylesbury - Calvert - Claydon 18.5m,
Bicester - Claydon 6.5m

Leaving just 11miles non operational gap from Claydon to the end of the operational section at the Bletchley end

And just under 1.5 miles operational at the Bletchley end.

Given there should be fewer planning issues on the already operational bits (which are needed for HS2) how much of the upgrade work could be done for £100m without needing to be redone later?

 

[route:oxford]

Agreed. The archaic term 'varsity line' should be banned.

With Milton Keynes in the middle, perhaps the future marketing strapline should be:-

"Take the MIcKEY"

 

[MarkRedon]

Thinking about the Wednesday announcement...

Of the route Mileage of "EWR":

11.5miles has already been upgraded as part of the current Chiltern pushed effort from Bicester - Oxford

Of the rest that needs work or potentially does that is currently "operational" and also needed for HS2 construction trains is circa 25 route miles. e.g.
Princes Risbrough - Aylesbury - Calvert - Claydon 18.5m,
Bicester - Claydon 6.5m

Leaving just 11miles non operational gap from Claydon to the end of the operational section at the Bletchley end

And just under 1.5 miles operational at the Bletchley end.

Given there should be fewer planning issues on the already operational bits (which are needed for HS2) how much of the upgrade work could be done for £100m without needing to be redone later?

Perhaps you and other contributors don't understand the difference in the necessary infrastructure capability required for bin trains running at walking pace and that needed for 100 or even 125 mph running for what we used to call Inter-City trains? The aim is to link Oxford to Cambridge in somewhere between 60 and 90 minutes! And to provide a serious alternative route between Milton Keynes and London.

This will of course require a complete rebuild of much of the nominally operational route mileage.

The section between Bedford Parkway and Cambridge (yes, I know it hasn't yet been authorised, but it is clearly part of the strategic justification for this railway, very well explained by contributor cle) has to be largely completely new build across a route which has never seen an operational railway.

It is almost certainly a false economy to reopen at a low level of capability and then seek to upgrade at a much higher. If you read the National Infrastructure Commission report, you will see that part of their argument for bringing forward spending on this largely new railway is to ensure proper integration with HS2 in the Calvert area. That, of necessity, needs to be done in advance of the now nearly imminent construction of HS2...

 

[Andyjs247]

This will of course require a complete rebuild of much of the nominally operational route mileage.

Not least because HS2 will be built on part of the ex-GC Aylesbury to Claydon alignment. So the Aylesbury to Claydon section of EWR will need to be rebuilt slightly to the east. And if you're going to rebuild it out of necessity you may as well do the job properly and do it to the final spec.

It is almost certainly a false economy to reopen at a low level of capability and then seek to upgrade at a much higher. If you read the National Infrastructure Commission report, you will see that part of their argument for bringing forward spending on this largely new railway is to ensure proper integration with HS2 in the Calvert area. That, of necessity, needs to be done in advance of the now nearly imminent construction of HS2...

The work is also going to need to be phased to maintain access to Claydon for construction, either via Aylesbury or via Bicester. It will be similar to how the Bicester to Oxford project had to maintain access for the MOD around the blockade.

The Bicester to Bletchley line gets raised to cross over HS2 and is also realigned.

 

[The Planner]

Dont you mean FCC at Calvert. Access to that has to be maintained yes.

 

[Andyjs247]

Dont you mean FCC at Calvert. Access to that has to be maintained yes.

Yes. I should have said Calvert and Claydon (thinking about new construction traffic but forgetting the regular freight

 

[70014IronDuke]

Agreed. The archaic term 'varsity line' should be banned.

I realise you are - but, as I've written before, the term "Varsity Line" is anything but archaic. The line (or lines) was never known by that name when it was open for traffic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps you and other contributors don't understand the difference in the necessary infrastructure capability required for bin trains running at walking pace and that needed for 100 or even 125 mph running for what we used to call Inter-City trains?
...

I'm sure you are perfectly correct in saying the work involved in upgrading/restoring Bicester & Aylesbury -Bletchley-Bedford into a modern high(ish)-speed railway is enormous. Nonetheless, it is far more easily doable than sorting out a modern route east of Bedford.

The former I do expect to be a realistic proposition in the next decade or so. The latter bit, however ......

 

[swt_passenger]

I realise you are - but, as I've written before, the term "Varsity Line" is anything but archaic. The line (or lines) was never known by that name when it was open for traffic.

Yes, I was wondering how to explain that more fully. Many posters seem to use that name under the false assumption that must have been what it was called, but with no evidence then why do they do it?

Is it because they have this naive belief that there'll be a constant stream of students and staff shuttling between the two universities, rather than them being in competition with one another?

 

[ac6000cw]

Is it because they have this naive belief that there'll be a constant stream of students and staff shuttling between the two universities, rather than them being in competition with one another?

Yes - Cambridge University was founded by academics from Oxford 800+ years ago - they've been competing with each other ever since...

I think the important place along the route is MK, both as a traffic generator in it's own right and for the WCML connections. It was also designed from the start to be a sizeable city, so it has the space and infrastructure designed for growth in a way that e.g. Cambridge really hasn't.

It's pretty obvious from the recent announcements on electrification schemes that NR has been told that it has to stay within its existing budget i.e. there won't be any extra money to bail it out of cost overruns. Also the GW electrification cost debacle will mean that the Treasury is going to very sceptical of NR cost estimates for major projects (and add hefty 'risk premiums'), which is going to badly affect the BCRs for re-openings.

Allocating £10m for more detailed planning studies on the eastern section is not much more than throwing some loose change at it in Government spending terms, so that it can say it is still progressing the project, without making a commitment to build anything at all in the future. (Does anyone know over what period of time that £10m being spread - I can't find any detail about that?).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They could go back to rebuilding the curve from the south end of the viaduct at the Ex junction into the station but of course, that would be on the flat and affect Up & Down mainline movement. I remember that curve being in use but can't remember the name of the junction at the moment. It's been a long time.

I think it was Fletton Sidings box which controlled access to the local brickworks and the curves to the WCML (north to Bletchley station and south towards Euston).
And then controlled access to the flyover when it was built.
See post #9 in this: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65959-the-old-bletchley-to-oxford-line/